Time Vault + Voltaic Key in Kuldotha MUD

[fsecco]

I've been alway from Vintage (and Magic in general) for the last couple years, maybe more than that. So forgive me if this has already been tried and I didn't know about.

I know MUD normally shouldn't use 1-of's since it has no draw/tutor. But in Kuldotha builds, since it's a tutor, has anyone ever tried running the Vault/Key combo? Both cards are totally usable alone, and the combo shouldn't be difficult to assemble tutoring with Kuldotha.

I mean, if neither piece of the combo shows up in your hand, it doesn't matter anyway - they could be any other card, you would never see them. But if one of them is in your hand, tutoring for the other and insta-winning is totally possible.

I know MUD lists are tight, but has anyone tested this? Do you think that, since both cards are utility cards, not actual threats by themselves, they are too slow?

[StanleyAugust]

They simply don't do enough or advance your game plan. I'd rather play an additional sphere and/or a tutorable Crucible in the slots.

[d8dk32]

If I were going to try this I would maybe try some sort of hybrid metalworker/forgemaster build. That way at least the key wouldn't be as dead if you drew it since you could make stupid amounts of mana with the metalworker. It's worth noting that the key could also untap forgemaster. A list like that might be too spread out to be consistent but perhaps it's worth a try. I recommend you test i out.

[Bill Copes]

If I were going to try this I would maybe try some sort of hybrid metalworker/forgemaster build. That way at least the key wouldn't be as dead if you drew it since you could make stupid amounts of mana with the metalworker. It's worth noting that the key could also untap forgemaster. A list like that might be too spread out to be consistent but perhaps it's worth a try. I recommend you test i out.

I tried to play a deck like this when Kuldotha was first legal.  It's explosive when it works, but it's inconsistent as hell.  I tried to circumvent that with Serum Powders, but then it just became a sub-par shop-combo deck that was really bad at protecting itself.
I've seen some European lists on morphling.de that are more optimal-looking than mine, but I still wouldn't take them to a tournament.

[xouman]

One year ago I faced a player playing this deck, but that was not good enough. Mediocre at shutting opponent mana, slow fetching both pieces of the combo. I thought about a blue MUD (featuring trinket mage and master transmuter) but still didn't include time vault. If you want to play it with MWS, maybe trinket mage and master transmuter are decent approach. Add SDT, tinker, counterspells and some good beaters like golem or esperzoa. Just an idea.

Basically in last years best MWS decks have been quite aggro or focused in prison. Combo approaches have not worked fine up to now.

[fsecco]

I was actually not thinking combo-shop, but just finding slots for the combo in the now prevalent Kuldotha builds. It could win random games. But I guess winning random games is not worth the 2 slots and the consistency.

[boggyb]

If you really want an insta-kill, I'd think running a single BSC would just be better. Sundering Titan or even Myr Battlesphere are probably better still, since they're much more castable and almost just as certain to win you the game as BSC is.

I think my point is, while Vault + Key is a 100% win condition, there are other cards which function on their own as 95% win conditions, which Forgemaster can tutor up by himself, or which can be cast if you happen to draw them; and the marginal benefit of improving your wincon percentage from, say, Titan's 95% to Vault-Key's 100% is not worth the greater disadvantage of running dead cards. Further, the marginal disadvantages each of the singletons suffer from can be mitigated by running several which shore up each other's weaknesses. This is why most good Forgemaster lists run a suite of Sundering Titan, Hellkite, Crucible, Trinisphere, Duplicant, and Wurmcoil between the main and side.

[Justin]

Ive tried several builds attempting to utilize Forgemaster as a combo enabler (with metalworker, a singleton staff of domination, 4 keys + vault, obeyline, painters & a single grindstone along with a single sword of fire &ice /cranial plating/batterskull, even basalt monolith & rings of brightearth).

The nice thing is that mox opal & artifact lands have at least made a color splash viable while still running workshop, tomb, & some # of city of traitors. I tried grim monolith in the key-vault build as well. I even tried a white splash for rest in piece, enlightened tutor & ancient den, and a black splash running obeyline, consultation & vault of whispers, a blue splash build (tinker, ancestral & thoughtcast w/seat of the synod), even tried a red splash with welder & gamble. They all have the same problem:

The problem is having to pass the turn (in forgemaster/metalworker builds), and i just cant bring myself to test lightning greeves lol

You can crap out some wins (all splash builds but blue ran serum powder) but ultimately it seems like the best way to achieve a win via forgemaster is a creature (blightsteel, titan, etc).

So yeah, I agree with boggyb.

Good luck with this. If you crack it, I hope you share the results because I want this deck to work soooo badly lol.

[fsecco]

But even in Kuldotha/Lightning Greaves builds, Colossus is probably a better kill since it's instant. Drop Forgemaster, equip Greaves, sac 3, fetch Colossus, equip Colossus for the win. I have done this a few times in Legcy MUD.

[fsecco]

I always tought to be very funny that Vintage players tend to discard strategies solely based on theories... A lot of times I read things like "that simply won't work" or "<this> is obviously better" in this forum.

Anyway, this list got second on BoM day 5 http://www.watchdamatch.com/tournois/coverage/bom-day-5/.
MUD (by Marcel Gelissen)

17 Lands :
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
3 City of Traitors

17 Creatures :
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite

26 Other Spells :
1 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethist
2 Lightning Graves
1 Time Vault
1 Spine of Ish Sha
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith

Sideboard :
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dismember
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grafdigger’s Cage

[Bibendum]

That list lost in the top 4. The second place shop list was the metalworker list running staff of nim and Karn Liberated. One thing you will find out is the metagame is vastly different between europe and here. Fighting in a meta that allows 0 proxies means you see fields of budget decks all over. A lot of sub-optimal lists can make runs if they draw there first few rounds well. Not saying Vault Key can't work but before you take the ball and run, remember that success over there doesn't always translate over here.

[vaughnbros]

But even in Kuldotha/Lightning Greaves builds, Colossus is probably a better kill since it's instant. Drop Forgemaster, equip Greaves, sac 3, fetch Colossus, equip Colossus for the win. I have done this a few times in Legcy MUD.

I have tested a singleton greaves in a martello list, without colossus, and it is actually a quite powerful.  Granting haste to Forgemaster and Hellkite is huge as well as providing shroud to lodestones and revokers.  It can be dead at times though making it a higher variance card choice.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I don't understand why that list is squeezing in Voltaic Keys and Time Vault when it could just run Staff of Domination to win with Metalworker.

[Bibendum]

I don't understand why that list is squeezing in Voltaic Keys and Time Vault when it could just run Staff of Domination to win with Metalworker.

That was also my first thoughts. Does null rod not exist in europe?

[JACO]

I don't understand why that list is squeezing in Voltaic Keys and Time Vault when it could just run Staff of Domination to win with Metalworker.

Because it's closer to Michael Bomholt's Legacy MUD list than a traditional Vintage MUD list. That being said, I would definitely make room for a singleton Staff of Domination to tutor up, to Dominate.

I don't understand why that list is squeezing in Voltaic Keys and Time Vault when it could just run Staff of Domination to win with Metalworker.

That was also my first thoughts. Does null rod not exist in europe?

Null Rod exists, but the problem is most of the decks that run Null Rod are simply outclassed by a deck full of large artifact creatures. When you cast a Null Rod you shut off a Metalworker, but your opponent is still casting 5/3s, 3/5s, 6/6s, 5/5 flyers, and other cards that impact the board. Null Rod is fantastic at shutting down Forgemaster and Metalworker from activating, but doesn't do much to stop Forgemaster, Lodestone, or Wurmcoil Engine from just killing you in 3-4 turns. And when they topdeck creatures while you topdeck more Null Rods you just look like a dipshit. Because of this, I think Null Rod is actually best served in Workshop decks currently, like Terra Nova, which can punish the opponent with their own big creatures in time, and removal in Dismember

[nataz]

interesting point about null rod in terra nova. I like the idea, but what would you cut to fit it in?

Also, in my experience, terra nova doesn't run any of the classic "big" mud creatures. Only revoker/metamorph(which often times is another sphere)/lodestone.  

I think its a fascinating deck, but I have trouble accepting dismember as a reliable crutch in a bajillion sphere deck. 4 life is significant, especially when you need to lean on tomb to cast through spheres. I'd love to figure out who to splash red for b-ring/crucible combo finish.  

PS
one of the top 8 mud lists at bom was playing forge Master, 3 key, and a vault! You should check it out.

[fsecco]

That list lost in the top 4. The second place shop list was the metalworker list running staff of nim and Karn Liberated. One thing you will find out is the metagame is vastly different between europe and here. Fighting in a meta that allows 0 proxies means you see fields of budget decks all over. A lot of sub-optimal lists can make runs if they draw there first few rounds well. Not saying Vault Key can't work but before you take the ball and run, remember that success over there doesn't always translate over here.

Yeah, I probably misread. Anyway, Top 4 is huge. Of course I also loved Karn Liberated and Staff of Nin (I am one of the guys that like Staff). And I wanted to check a report to see what the guy running Vault/Key thought of it. Maybe it didn't win a single game... is there any report available? I saw the videos for the quarter, semi, and finals, but as far as I remember, no Vault...