[Free Article] Is Control Back In Vintage?

[forests failed you]

Mana Drain dominated this months LCV tournament.  In this week's article I take a look at the Control Decks that performed well and speculate what this means for the future.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26127_Is-Control-Back-In-Vintage-.html

Cheers

[Metman]

Nice article Brian. I would like to see some more comparison or analysis as to what makes it a good time to be playing Drains, or the perceived reason for the uptick in Drains. The top two decks look oddly similar aside from the engines. Did you end up finding out if the pilots were testing buddies?

[PeAcH]

Yes, Pau and Carles are testing buddies and play in the same team (Igualada team).

Their Oath sideboard has been tried before by the same team:

Antoni Sánchez (also Igualada Player) - Top4 @LCV March

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10476&iddeck=76408

This time though he played GG Oath Side.

Carles Miñón - won@LCV January:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10071&iddeck=73390

It seems it really works for them

[Prospero]

Another strong read, Brian.  Thanks for the article.

[forests failed you]

Thanks for the kind words guys!

I will be writing about Vintage again for next week (for the third straight  week in a row!) and am interested in getting some input from the community.

I have quite a few small Vintage talking points that I haven't had the opportunity to get to saved up and am looking to include them all into one big Vintage hodgepodge article.  Here are a couple of rough ideas that I have been looking to touch upon, but would be interested in getting to but would be interested in getting feedback about:

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

I would love to feature some brews next Tuesday so hopefully you guys can help me out.

2.  If anybody has general format questions that they would like to see discussed in the article feel free to message me any questions and I will do my best to make them talking points.

3.  Vintage variants.  Vintage is the only real format where power 9 is allowed?  By real I mean there can be a sanctioned event for these cards?  (can we sanction a beta draft does that count?), As many of you know I love to create and play my own formats and have brewed up a really interesting Vintage alternative that I would like to discuss.  I know the 1995 format is pretty popular, but do any of you guys have made up eternal formats that you play that are awesome?  Let me know.  5 Color, or EDH with power type stuff?

4.  If there were a Vintage Highlander format (and it were a real format / sanctioned) would you play in Vintage Highlander Championships at Gen Con?

5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?

6.  What was the best era in Vintage all time?  Keeper era?  1st Gush?  Slaver?  3ball?  Gifts? 2nd Gush?  Post blue ban?  Thirst Time Vault? 
Present?

7.  What is your favorite Vintage deck of all time?

You can message me your thoughts, or post them in this thread.  But, if you post them be aware that I may use them in my article next
week!  (So, use good grammar etc.)

I will sit down to write the article Friday afternoon, so any submissions need to be in before that.  Cheers.

P.S. NO FIGHTING in the forum or I am going to scrap the article and write a draft review for Dragon's Maze.  I am not interested in people responding to other people's ideas and saying why so and so's ideas are bad or wrong.  I just want to know what YOU think in a vacuum, not why you think somebody else is wrong.

[Metman]

Gifts era was my favorite time to play Vintage. Gifts and Slaver variants were my two favorite decks to play. Pitch Long was another favorite to play. I thought several decks in that era had room in the main deck to really capture my play-style and still be competitive.

I like the unrestriction of Regrowth, however time will tell if that belief will remains as is. It was unexpected though. I would like to see some other cards come off the list including Balance and Flash. I don't think anything should go on the restricted list at the moment.

I look forward to reading your new content, it's always good stuff.

[Prospero]

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

I'm glad that Regrowth came off the list, though I was surprised to see it happen.  While I don't think it's a threat to the metagame, it's a card that has lived on the B&R list since the list's inception, if I'm not mistaken.  I think this may illustrate a shift in the DCI's thinking, where they are now willing to consider things that had previously been unconscionable.  This is a good thing.  

I think that it's high time that blue get some of its toys back, and I'd like to see some changes made to strengthen a more traditional blue deck.

5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?

I immediately un-restrict Thirst for Knowledge.  The card didn't live in the era of modern MUD, and wouldn't be as widely played as it once was.  It would also give a boost to some of the decks that have fallen out of tier one status, i.e. Turbo Tezz.  I'd also be up for seeing if a modern Control Slaver variant was possible.

I'd un-restrict Yawgmoth's Bargain.  For anyone looking to make the Show and Tell argument, why wouldn't you just Show and Tell with Griselbrand?  Isn't this already just better?  If you're a successful combo pilot, how many of these would you want to run?  Two?  Can you even support a third in the modern (post Lodestone Golem) metagame?

I'd consider un-restricting Ponder.  I think it can be done, but I'm a little hesitant that it may set up too many easy Vault/Key wins.  Still, I think it's potentially worth the try.  If the Thirst for Knowledge un-restriction didn't change much, I'd take it a step further to make blue stronger.

I think Library needs to stay on the B&R list.  Same goes for Balance, Demonic Consultation and most everything else.

6.  What was the best era in Vintage all time?  Keeper era?  1st Gush?  Slaver?  3ball?  Gifts? 2nd Gush?  Post blue ban?  Thirst Time Vault?  
Present?

The Morphling Keeper era (not the dying days, when Keeper decks were running Decree of Justice) was the greatest era of Vintage, for me.  A close second is the post Brainstorm restriction, pre Thirst restriction era.  5C was ascendant.

7.  What is your favorite Vintage deck of all time?

BBS.  5C is a close second.  

[shrewarmies]

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

Gush/regrowth did win the first Vintage tournament worldwide (as far as I can tell) after its unrestriction in Australia. It was a small tournament but may be a starting point. I wrote a small report (which included 2 shop decks) here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=45264.0 I have made a few changes to that list but have not tested them yet so can't say they are for the better yet.

I personally would not have unrestricted Regrowth. It is not that it boosts any one decks power so much that it becomes problematic for the format as a whole (as far as we can tell) but it can power over individual games to a problematic degree. In Gush-bond for example by upping the number of Gushes to 8 means you have much less chance of stumbling mid-Combo, in some games taking a 3+ Time Walks can be the death knell for your opponent. In modern Vintage, once the mid game is established, the game can be decided by who cast Ancestral Recall the most and Regrowth is just so much better at this than the other options available right now. Again, these decks may not be the most consistent or best decks in the format but can make individual games so lopsided that it ups the variance to a  level that may be problematic. I am fine that it is in the format, but I personally would not have taken it off the restricted list.

3.  Vintage variants.  Vintage is the only real format where power 9 is allowed?  By real I mean there can be a sanctioned event for these cards?  (can we sanction a beta draft does that count?), As many of you know I love to create and play my own formats and have brewed up a really interesting Vintage alternative that I would like to discuss.  I know the 1995 format is pretty popular, but do any of you guys have made up eternal formats that you play that are awesome?  Let me know.  5 Color, or EDH with power type stuff?

There is Australian Rules Highlander which has quite a following here (Australia of course) which uses the Vintage Banned list and there is a "points" which gives points to certain cards and any given deck may use up to 7 points off that list. For Example, Ancestral, Tinker and Black Lotus are worth 4 points and cards like Intuition, Force of Will and Enlightened Tutor are worth 1 point. The full points list and information can be found at http://mtgau.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20

One good thing about Australian Rules Highlander is the flashback you get when you see many of the decks. Zoo is a Tier 1 deck while it has been crushed out of most other formats. Other decks like Storm, Tinker, Ponza, BUG Control and Channel-Mirror are all viable decks which is refreshing

5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?

Nothing, I feel that Vintage is in a nice place right now. I would be watching the new Regrowth decks to see how they evolve over the coming months but I would not be looking to make any changes in the near future.

[StanleyAugust]

Was control ever gone?

[forests failed you]

Was control ever gone?

I would argue that for a time Workshops really pushed Control off the top step but that Drains have really surged back and established themselves as being a premier strategy over the past couple of months.  Dredge also seems very good.  The real question on my mind is:  why have Workshops taken such a step back with regard to their dominance over top 8s?  Are they underplayed?  Have people figured them out?  Is it just that people didn't know how to play against them and now they do?  Is there a way to revamp Shops to make a push back? 

Maybe a little bit of all of these factors is actually true.  I can only actually speculate, but it is really fascinating to watch play out in the LCV and NE Metas.

Also, thanks to everybody who has contributed insights.  I have gotten a lot of really good messages and a lot of nifty stuff to work with. 

More plz! 

Cheers.

[Bibendum]

1. Regrowth showed up in a few top 8's as a 2 of. I don't know if regrowth in multiples had anything to do with the top 8 performance but it did show up.

4. Vintage highlander exists, its called storm these days . I would play a real vintage highlander format, seems like it would be fun.

5. I agree with Nick, I think thirst is a safe removal with modern shop decks the way thy are, relying on a 3cc draw spell is not as game breaking as it was before. I think Balance coming off could make 5c a  deck like was talked about in the podcast though Im not sure if it doesn't create an imbalance in power for some of the U/W control shells out there.


6. Tezz/5c era was my favorite over my playing career but i only was a part of it for a short period of time before all the blue draw had gotten neutered.

7. Slaver/5c stax/ Mono Red Shops- IE anything that I can play welder. Hands down favorite card ever printed .


Edt: Great Read
Double Edit: Shops are in an interesting spot. It seems they can be meta gamed to beat 2 of the 4 top lists they need too but not the entire gambit. Not saying its a bad deck by any means as I am a life long shop pilot, I just think they are in a tough spot.

[Twaun007]

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

I would love to feature some brews next Tuesday so hopefully you guys can help me out.

I personally don’t think the unrestriction of Reqrowth will be format breaking. I think it might give the Gushbond engine a little boost, but other than that I don’t see it warping the Meta.

If I were to start a Regrowth deck I’d probably look at something like this.

4 Gush
1 Fastbond
4 Regrowth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Eternal Witness
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Personal Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vamiric Tutor
1 Demoniuc Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens/Brain Freeze

2.  If anybody has general format questions that they would like to see discussed in the article feel free to message me any questions and I will do my best to make them talking points.

What‘s your opinion regarding the cyclical complaints about non-blue decks that the Vintage community brings up. I.E. the complaints about Dredge being too powerful from a few years ago, Oath even before that, and know Workshops.

Blue, throughout the majority of Modern Vintage, has been the most dominant archetype and now that it isn’t sitting atop its mighty thrown, why all the complaints? I just find it weird never hearing complaints about Blue’s dominance.  

3.  Vintage variants.  Vintage is the only real format where power 9 is allowed?  By real I mean there can be a sanctioned event for these cards?  (can we sanction a beta draft does that count?), As many of you know I love to create and play my own formats and have brewed up a really interesting Vintage alternative that I would like to discuss.  I know the 1995 format is pretty popular, but do any of you guys have made up eternal formats that you play that are awesome?  Let me know.  5 Color, or EDH with power type stuff?

Vintage Singleton Shard constructed (pick the colors of your favorite Shard and you only get those to build your singleton deck with)

4.  If there were a Vintage Highlander format (and it were a real format / sanctioned) would you play in Vintage Highlander Championships at Gen Con?

Yes.

5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?

I would institute a 6-8 month mandatory rotation policy of restriction or unrestriction to prevent format stagnation. Every 6-8 months cards would rotate on and off pending tourney performance. Plus, it might add more excitement in waiting for the B&R list announcements if you knew a card was coming off or going on.

6.  What was the best era in Vintage all time?  Keeper era?  1st Gush?  Slaver?  3ball?  Gifts? 2nd Gush?  Post blue ban?  Thirst Time Vault?  
Present?

Slaver, Gifts, 5c Stax, UW fish, Pitchlong era.  

7.  What is your favorite Vintage deck of all time?

Psychatog and BRstax

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

The Regrowth unrestriction certainly is interesting, albeit not unproblematic, as others have stated. It's too early to tell how it's effect will turn out. The difference between snapcaster and regrowth only shows itself when you can play more than one regrowth. Only Yesterday I played a game where I played 4 time walks starting turn 2 and some gushes in between, then a yawgmoth's will while the opponent had 1 land out. Basically the same as "lodestone, metamorph, lodestone, sphere."  But I sure like it personally. See below, favourite decks etc.

2.  If anybody has general format questions that they would like to see discussed in the article feel free to message me any questions and I will do my best to make them talking points.


5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?
I would unrestrict ponder or flash but not both. Bargain could also be unrestricted.
I would not unrestrict balance, just because it kills all creatures for 1W.
Also, library of Alexandria should not be unrestricted because the community is against it and because it's another expensive card that could be run as a 4of.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor should be restricted for reasons of ruling out other options (being better than all other 4cc blue cards) and being unfun and autopilot-dumb (I know, really subjective reasons, but at least no one will argue and flame here, hehe).

6.  What was the best era in Vintage all time?  Keeper era?  1st Gush?  Slaver?  3ball?  Gifts? 2nd Gush?  Post blue ban?  Thirst Time Vault? 
Present?
The second gush era. I'll be the one who says it. I love gush decks, especially the gush-painter ones that were legal for a short amount of time.

7.  What is your favorite Vintage deck of all time?

Gush decks with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Merchant scrolls. DA BEST.

[wiley]

So I've read the article and as always it is a fun read and thank you for writing content for vintage.

There are two things I would like to see in a future article, one of which deals with control and the other with shops:

It is my opinion that shops has been metagaming itself out of top 8s and especially winning tournaments lately.  The shop decks most suited to win a tournament are the midrange prison decks like martello and marinara, but the ones that have been getting into top 8s, and losing, are the mana ramp aggro versions of shops like the forgemaster mud decks.  These are versions of shops that were designed to have an edge against other shop decks while supposedly still maintaining an edge against everyone else.  However, it appears that it gave up just a bit too much and the win percentages against the everyone else category evened out to a point that makes it unfavorable to win a tournament with.  I would like to see an article that delves into this to see if it holds true or not.

As far control goes, it seems like there is a very important discovery in your article about control that explains a lot about what is happening in the format.  It seems like the mana base is the biggest hurdle to entry for a strong control deck in the current meta.  You either need a large number of basics like the tezzeret list in the article or the heavily planeswalkered one with back to basics I piloted recently (link), or you need to have shenanigans with your mana base like landstill with it's crucible of worlds or gush decks, or a mixture of both like bomberman with its 4 basics and cavern of souls.

I would love to see an article detailing how the mana base tweaks and tricks can change how good a control deck is in the current meta.

[Pokey]

I think wiley is on point with everything.  Seems like a good topic.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

@wiley: Martello is forgemaster mud. Outside of nitpicking though, I disagree. Martello is not made to beat workshops, intact I would say that their worst matchup is probably espresso stax. As such, I can't get behind your assumption.

[wiley]

@wiley: Martello is forgemaster mud. Outside of nitpicking though, I disagree. Martello is not made to beat workshops, intact I would say that their worst matchup is probably espresso stax. As such, I can't get behind your assumption.

I probably got the name wrong, I am thinking of the workshop deck that runs full factories and some number of mutavaults with full spheres.  Basically my premise is that the shop decks that have included big monsters like steel hellkite or wurmcoil engine have been made to beat the midrange prison shop decks, but they end up losing to t1 control because they have diluted their prison strategy too much.

[cvarosky80]

@wiley: Martello is forgemaster mud. Outside of nitpicking though, I disagree. Martello is not made to beat workshops, intact I would say that their worst matchup is probably espresso stax. As such, I can't get behind your assumption.

I probably got the name wrong, I am thinking of the workshop deck that runs full factories and some number of mutavaults with full spheres.

That would be the Terra Nova deck. It runs all 13 Sphere effects, 4x of Factory and Mutavault, along with 4x Dismember and 0 Tangle Wires and Smokestacks.

[brianpk80]

1.  Going to be discussing Regrowth unrestriction in Vintage.  If anybody has any cool/good Regrowth decks they would like to have featured in the article feel free to message me.  People's general thoughts about whether they were happy or unhappy with the most recent B&R announcement.  Were there other cards that people would rather of had unrestricted, or cards that they would rather see restricted?  etc.

It's fine.  It might make Gush decks more "consistent" when they start Gushing, but it doesn't strengthen it v. strategies that already hate on it and it still requires Fastbond to be fantastic.   

3.  Vintage variants.  Vintage is the only real format where power 9 is allowed?  By real I mean there can be a sanctioned event for these cards?  (can we sanction a beta draft does that count?), As many of you know I love to create and play my own formats and have brewed up a really interesting Vintage alternative that I would like to discuss.  I know the 1995 format is pretty popular, but do any of you guys have made up eternal formats that you play that are awesome?  Let me know.  5 Color, or EDH with power type stuff?

It might be fun. 

4.  If there were a Vintage Highlander format (and it were a real format / sanctioned) would you play in Vintage Highlander Championships at Gen Con?

 

I won't be there this year but, sure. 

5.  If you got to be the DCI and manage the Restricted list however you wanted what would you do?  What would you change if anything?

I would clean everything up in one fell swoop with an eye towards making the format more prone to evolve with new releases and better able to attract new players who understandably aren't willing to abide the random game-enders that would never be tolerated in a legitimate competitive sport.  I'd unrestrict Ponder, Gifts Ungiven, Thirst for Knowledge, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Memory Jar, would ban Tinker and Voltaic Key, and would restrict Lodestone Golem, Oath of Druids, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Cabal Therapy.

6.  What was the best era in Vintage all time?  Keeper era?  1st Gush?  Slaver?  3ball?  Gifts? 2nd Gush?  Post blue ban?  Thirst Time Vault? 
Present?

Gifts. 

7.  What is your favorite Vintage deck of all time?

Tie between 4 Mana Crypt Weissman and Mayor Fish. 

[msg67183]

If I could unrestrict anything I would unrestrict:
Gifts Ungiven, Thirst for Knowledge, Library of Alexandria, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, and Lion's Eye Diamond. This would push blue so far that I think Workshops would be neutered, but if that's not enought I'd restrict Lodestone Golem, as well as Chalice of the Void.

My favorite deck that I have played?

Turbo Tezz from 2011-2012 era.

[Phele]

Was control ever gone?

I would argue that for a time Workshops really pushed Control off the top step but that Drains have really surged back and established themselves as being a premier strategy over the past couple of months.  Dredge also seems very good.  The real question on my mind is:  why have Workshops taken such a step back with regard to their dominance over top 8s?  Are they underplayed?  Have people figured them out?  Is it just that people didn't know how to play against them and now they do?  Is there a way to revamp Shops to make a push back? 

Bazaar of Moxen has shown, that there is no negative trend for Workshop decks: Grixis- and MUD-Variants dominated the main event and the trials. It is more astonishing, that Dredge performed pretty poorly.

[Samoht]

Was control ever gone?

I would argue that for a time Workshops really pushed Control off the top step but that Drains have really surged back and established themselves as being a premier strategy over the past couple of months.  Dredge also seems very good.  The real question on my mind is:  why have Workshops taken such a step back with regard to their dominance over top 8s?  Are they underplayed?  Have people figured them out?  Is it just that people didn't know how to play against them and now they do?  Is there a way to revamp Shops to make a push back? 

Bazaar of Moxen has shown, that there is no negative trend for Workshop decks: Grixis- and MUD-Variants dominated the main event and the trials. It is more astonishing, that Dredge performed pretty poorly.

It's more astonishing that no one attacked the mana of the Shops players. No Null Rod and almost no Wastelands near the top. I didn't even see Engineered Explosives. Was quite interesting.

[Bibendum]

Yea I was surprised about that as well. But to be fair Null Rod hasn't been played much over here either. I think there were 6 copies in the top 8 at the last Coss event, though thats 6 more then the top 8 of BOM total.

[Varal]

Yea I was surprised about that as well. But to be fair Null Rod hasn't been played much over here either. I think there were 6 copies in the top 8 at the last Coss event, though thats 6 more then the top 8 of BOM total.

The winning deck played 2 Null rod, 4 Wasteland. Maybe that's why he won. It's true that Null Rod is bad against budget decks but you need to beat powered decks to win the tournament.

[Bibendum]

Yea I saw it had wastes. Didnt see the rod any of the three games but guess it was in there. It just seems that factories and rod are missing for the most part an thats two huge ways to hold shops off as we can see by our meta.

[Samoht]

Yea I was surprised about that as well. But to be fair Null Rod hasn't been played much over here either. I think there were 6 copies in the top 8 at the last Coss event, though thats 6 more then the top 8 of BOM total.

The winning deck played 2 Null rod, 4 Wasteland. Maybe that's why he won. It's true that Null Rod is bad against budget decks but you need to beat powered decks to win the tournament.

Those cards help a lot against Shops, especially if they are on Metalworker.