Young Pyromancer

[ErtaiAdept]

One thing outside of his casting cost that makes him better than talrand as well, is that he's not legenday, which mean you can have multiples.  Two of this guys on the field makes gush/preordane insane.

[zeus-online]

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[MaximumCDawg]

Everyone keeps talkin about Gush... but why?  This guy plus Clamp is an amazing draw engine without having to touch Blue.  Recall how affinity shops is making stuff happen with Genesis Chamber and Clamp... this guy is potentially better, because Lightning Bolt is better than Memnite and this dork can be clamped or swing for 2 all by his lonesome.  The more I think about him, the more excited I'm getting.

Imagine this kind of shell:

Draw Engine (8):
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Skullclamp

Other Dorks (14)
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Tin-Street Hooligan
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Porcelain Legionnare

Hate (20)
4x Thoughtseize
4x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Lighting Bolt
4x Lava Dart

This kind of Jund list makes Clamp very attractive.  If you stick a Pyromancer, things get pretty sick pretty fast, too.  Lava Dart is a criminally underused removal spell that just gets stronger with young'n around.  I am definitely brewing this up once this set is legal.

[Protoaddict]

I try to make a point to pay attention to lists running lava dart seriously...

Is thoughtsieze better than Cabal therapy in a list that churns out tokens?

I don't know the actual answer to that mind you, not rhetorical. Maybe thoughtsize is better in this case. But I think in a list like this where you kinda want free spells you want to play Gitixian probe, and with cabal that becomes absolutely backbreaking.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Young Pyromancer triggers on your playing instants and sorceries, but you've put 14 other creatures and 8 artifacts in your deck. I like the idea of playing more reusable spells like Lava Dart and Cabal Therapy, though.

[Random Noob]

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1745&highlight=2#place2

I am excited of the idea mixing it up with Skullclamp. Maybe the list above is a home.

[MaximumCDawg]

I try to make a point to pay attention to lists running lava dart seriously...

Is thoughtsieze better than Cabal therapy in a list that churns out tokens?

I don't know the actual answer to that mind you, not rhetorical. Maybe thoughtsize is better in this case. But I think in a list like this where you kinda want free spells you want to play Gitixian probe, and with cabal that becomes absolutely backbreaking.

I dont know either.  My reasoning goes like this: Probe is not hot in a list that wants to run many hatebears in a non-blue shell. Having a Probe in your opening hand is like having to mulligan one card; it makes decisions about keeping or pitching more difficult.  Without Probe, Therapy is less attractive.  If you've got a non-blue deck like this, you need your initial discard to hit something relevant or else you're just gonna lose to Tinker or Lodestone or whatever.  

I could certainly see an argument for running duress AND cabal therapy, however.  I always liked that in mono-black Legacy decks.

Also, I wonder if you instead take a tip from Modern Assault Loam lists and run Raven's Crime / Flame Jab with some support cards like Life from the Loam?  I think that might be getting too fancy, though.  I love me some Lava Dart.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1745&highlight=2#place2

I am excited of the idea mixing it up with Skullclamp. Maybe the list above is a home.

Seriously.  If Pyromancer was 2R and read, "Whenever you play an instant or sorcery, you may pay 1.  If you do, draw 2 cards" it would be the biggest printing for Vintage in years.  The fact that it is two cards makes it worse, certainly, but the effect is really, really good.

[Random Noob]

Yeah that's true, the Problem is that Skullclamp needs a setting of other creatures. Don't know if you can throw Stoneforge Mystic in there, without losing focus.

[MaximumCDawg]

If Mystic was 2/1, I'd be all about jazzin' her up with Young Blood here.  She can fetch the clamp and play it uncounterable-like.  Problem is, she's not clampable herself.  I like the idea of all my duders being clampable if that's my draw engine.

[Protoaddict]

I think there may be something to ravens crime..

Honestly the real difficulty this list is going to have is the fact that it is so very centered around dropping a 1 toughness dude that to not use blue may be a bad call. I mean the list is firmly black red right now and neither have a way to really protect your guy.

Lets say this is the core of your deck:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Guttersnipe
4 Lightning bolt
4 Gitixan Probe
4 Cabal therapy
4 Lava Dart

4 Skull clamp
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 Vampric tutor
1 Imperial seal

1 Mox ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol ring
1 Mana crypt
1 Crucible of worlds

That has all the combo and tutors and utility you need to strip a hand and go to town, but a single lighting bolt off the top and that can be the whole game. Blue would be the logical include because you get all the obvious power plus a counter suite to protect, but what are the benefits of not running blue? If you do run blue you probably need to cut some stuff to make room for a critical mass of blue cards, at which point running gush and a Tarland may make sense.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think there may be something to ravens crime..

Honestly the real difficulty this list is going to have is the fact that it is so very centered around dropping a 1 toughness dude that to not use blue may be a bad call. I mean the list is firmly black red right now and neither have a way to really protect your guy.

Lets say this is the core of your deck:

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Guttersnipe
4 Lightning bolt
4 Gitixan Probe
4 Cabal therapy
4 Lava Dart

4 Skull clamp
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 Vampric tutor
1 Imperial seal

1 Mox ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol ring
1 Mana crypt
1 Crucible of worlds

That has all the combo and tutors and utility you need to strip a hand and go to town, but a single lighting bolt off the top and that can be the whole game. Blue would be the logical include because you get all the obvious power plus a counter suite to protect, but what are the benefits of not running blue? If you do run blue you probably need to cut some stuff to make room for a critical mass of blue cards, at which point running gush and a Tarland may make sense.

Playing that list, I'd add in kiln fiend and reckless charges.  Fast beats.

[zeus-online]

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[MaximumCDawg]

I would run 4 gitaxian probe, 4 cabal therapy and some number of quiet speculation. Probably add in a few additional flashback cards. Those cards seem to work with this guy.

Quiet Speculation is such a baller card that never sees play.  Tutor three cards, essentially into my hand?  Yes, thank you!

4 Color Flashback!

Critters (13)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Roar of the Wurm

Disruption / Removal (12)
4 Lava Dart
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Shattering Spree
2 Flusterstorm
4 Spell Pierce

Flashback Package (11) (probably some in board)
4 Quiet Speculation
2 Deep Analysis
? Ancient Grudge (for da shops)
? Crippling Fatigue (for da fish)
? Deadly Allure (also for da fish)
? Dread Return (for da value)
? Memory's Journey (for da dredge)

[Protoaddict]

Quiet spec is awesome tech.

I do wonder if relying on flashback too much is dangerous, simply because grave hate becomes a nightmare whereas you did not have to worry as much about it.

Ray of revelation may be worth running as a 1 of for the Oath matchup if you go that route, along with at least probabaly mystical tutor if not a whole tutor package. Each tutor does give you a dude with pyro on the field.

[Demagoguery]

The combo ideas are cool and all but I'm thinking something more along the lines of a Fish deck. Here are some cards I think work very well with this guy, and could be used to build a deck around:

1.) Cabal Therapy: If he's in play you basically get to Therapy twice at no cost to yourself. This can be a major card advantage outlet as all of a sudden you get to blind guess their counter/protection, and then flash it back off the token, while making another token, and hitting whatever you're afraid of.

2.) Skullclamp: I'm sure this doesn't need explaining, given the right deck it's better than Ancestral.

3.) Surgical Extraction: It's a free spell that makes dudes, it's also not a bad card as it can be used to rip away important 4 ofs that you might be worried about. Not only that but it's surprisingly powerful when you consider how many Crucibles, Snapcasters, Yawg Wins, and more exist in the format, as one of main in the deck it can do a lot of work, and don't forget it can hit things like Wasteland or even Duals, so hitting the right card with a Wasteland and then removing it can at times leave the player mana dead.

4.) Snuff Out: It's a good removal spell that's free and works really well against Workshops. I'd play some mix of this and Lightning Bolt as the removal package.

5.) Stingscourger: Kind of a weird one but it does answer things like Blightsteel while also working well with the Skullclamp as it can blow up on your upkeep while still equipped or simply beat in with the clamp for more damage. It's also not bad with Therapy, as you can bounce a creature to their hand and then Therapy it away off the Stingscourger for the flashback cost.


Taking this into consideration I'd say this is an interesting start to a deck that doesn't so much focus to combo off Pyromancer but rather use it for a lot of value. Now it's easy to see that BR is the primary focus but I can see easily adding a third colour. If I'd add another colour I'd say it would be green and not blue. Why green, well here are the cards that push me into Green:

1.) Crop Rotation: It makes a guy off Pyromancer which is a plus. It also lets you fetch any utility land, and can act as a pseudo-Stifle for their Wasteland/Stripmine. What lands would I fetch with it? Well Bojuka Bog would be cool main deck as it's a primary colour land and being able to do it instant speed can act as another way to counter Yawg Win or just a Dredge deck. Another cool land would be a single Bazaar of Baghdad, with flash back spells it becomes a lot less of a card disadvantage land, not to mention you only need one Clamp so it's nice to be able to loot away the extras if they're not needed. It's also cool if you're inclined to play Welders since then you can do some fun Crucible tricks and whatever.

2.) Tin Street Hooligan/ Ancient Grudge: Both are strong and have a lot of targets. The Grudge makes tokens, is semi-uncounterable, and interacts with Bazaar, the Goblin has a decent body to start with, helps Therapy directly, and can be uncounterable off a Cavern. Both feed Clamp in their own way. While I disagree with maxing out on artifact hate as I don't believe the Moxen are a good enough reason, they still aren't bad targets and having some hate is never wrong, especially when that hate can feed your other plans.

[MaximumCDawg]

Going into the fray tonight with the following tweaked list.

Creatures (11)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gorilla Shaman (I like him better than Delver)

Standard Removal Package (14)
3 Lava Dart
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Darkblast

Sideboard Slots (6)
2 Pyoblast (not REB, because Pyro makes a dude from Pyromancer in a pinch even with no blue stuff)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Steel Sabotage

Tutors / Draw (4)
2 Quiet Speculation
1 Deep Analysis
1 Brainstorm

Other Win Conditions:
2 Jace, The Wallet Rapist

Manaland(23)

Along the way, I tinkered with Gelectrode, Chandra Pyromaster, Viashino Heretic, and Shared Discovery, among other cards.  Might incorporate them in the future in some way.  This list also needs moar Null Rod, I think, but I havn't decided what to cut yet.  Originally, I didn't have Null Rods because I was using Skullclamp, but Clamp creates sort of an annoying tension here; it doesn't trigger Pyromancer by itself, so it cuts into your spell count.  If you have cards like Tiago that care about spells, this tended to be a problem.

So, my plan tonight is apparently to lose horribly to Chalice of the Void and Mental Misstep all night.  Wish me luck, will be back with a report!

[msg67183]

How good would Beck/Call be with Pyromancer?

[Demagoguery]

I'd say it would be a little too cute, since you don't even get a trigger off the Beck itself. Then again it could just work if you cast something like Gitaxian Probe, Mana Morphose, and so forth to just chain spells together... Every Beck after that would also draw you an additional card than the previous beck, and multiple Pyromancers in play at the same time would mean your Probe is a free Recall or more.

The issue really would be keeping your mana up so you can continue chaining spells into something meaningful, and reduce the number of do nothing cards like Mana Morphose in your deck.

[MaximumCDawg]

Welp, I scrubbed out, badly.  0-3-1 with that list.  Admitedly, had I not forgotten about my dart in the yard one game, the draw would have been a win.  Oh well.

[Protoaddict]

How often did that deck lose because you had stranded FOWs in hand. Also were you running power? lastly.... No Skullclamp?????

Also just realized: Quiet speculation -> 3 Cabal therapy allows you to PROBABALY hit them with Ravenous trap that turn as well, which makes a dude.

[Metman]

How about Perilous Research and Diabolic Intent with Young Pyromancer? Along the same lines as Skullclamp, I like the idea of using Young Pyromancer as the fuel for an engine instead of a source of damage in terms of producing tokens.

[StanleyAugust]

I've been playing something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Skullclamp
1 Batterskull

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce

2 Ancient Grudge
1 Steel Sabotage

3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus

4 City of Brass
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

2 Cavern of Souls

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

With a few changes from game to game and it's been doing quite OK actually, although I'm not satisfied. Especially is the blue count too low.

[Stormanimagus]

To me it is pretty clear that the Gush-Bond engine is the way to abuse this guy and not something like Skullclamp that is slow and cumbersome. Playing off what Brian Demars came up with in his article I altered a couple of things to make this (my list opts for Mind's Desire for example instead of the 3rd regrowth)

Pyro-Gro

Land (16):
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet

Enchantments (2):
1 Fastbond
1 Necropotence

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures (7):
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Lotus Cobra

Instants (19):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (10):
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Mind’s Desire

Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nihil Spellbomb


This is a very rough sketch, but I think it has the most potential for breaking of any shell out there for this guy. Why would you run 14 creatures in a deck where you are trying to get Pyromancer triggers? That just seems super silly to me.

-Storm

[xouman]

Imho with that list trinket mage > SFM.
And drop swords for black package (demonic, vampiric, Y will)
Add bolts to cover batterskulls and SFM (you don't want 4 trinkets, I'd play 2)

You just free yourself from white and ease the "combo" while losing in the aggro match. However trinket adds to the blue count, can fetch moxen/lotus and equipped with skullclamp has a nice 3 power. Black package is more proactive than swords, but of course you are losing a great card dealing with creatures.


However I'd play a more instant/sorcery focused deck. A "typical" gro deck, with lots of preordains, some filtering (maybe frantic search? we will have lots of lands if we play skullclamp). Pyromancer gives me the idea of aggressive deck, not control. But it's just an opinion, of course.

[Purple Hat]

To me it is pretty clear that the Gush-Bond engine is the way to abuse this guy and not something like Skullclamp that is slow and cumbersome. Playing off what Brian Demars came up with in his article I altered a couple of things to make this (my list opts for Mind's Desire for example instead of the 3rd regrowth)

Pyro-Gro

Land (16):
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet

Enchantments (2):
1 Fastbond
1 Necropotence

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures (7):
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Lotus Cobra

Instants (19):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (10):
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Mind’s Desire

Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nihil Spellbomb


This is a very rough sketch, but I think it has the most potential for breaking of any shell out there for this guy. Why would you run 14 creatures in a deck where you are trying to get Pyromancer triggers? That just seems super silly to me.

-Storm

I'm not sure I'd rather have necropotence and desire than 2x skullclamp though.  I feel like the strength of pyromancer in some matches is that you can play 1 spell per turn and still generate a landslide of advantage.  not playing clamp in favor of playing additional combo cards seems like a mistake in that context.

[Stormanimagus]

I disagree entirely with that assessment.

Here are my reasons:

1. A Clamp without a Pyromancer is a sad Clamp. A Necro without a Pyromancer is still a bomb.

2. This deck already has a robust draw engine in Gush-Bond. There is no need to add another draw engine on top of that.

3. I want cards that end the game by themselves. I am basically re-iterating point #1 here, but I want to be clear that a resolved Mind's Desire should be game about 90% of the time. A resolved Skullclamp requires a lot of further resource commitment in order to get you the critical mass you need to win.

Hope this clarifies the reason for my card choices!

-Storm

[Smmenen]

Your deck is misbuilt. No preordain can't be right. 

[Stormanimagus]

Your deck is misbuilt. No preordain can't be right. 

I think that if you are running 16 land then Preordain is less necessary, but I understand your point. Problem is that I don't see what you'd cut except for Lotus Cobra. Btw, Demars' list ran 0 preordain and 3 Regrowth. I'm not saying he's in any way right, but I just think that preordain is a long-time auto-include that may need to be considered for cutting. I agree it is needed in the 14 land versions, but 16-17 land means you'll often find 2 early. Just my opinion.

-Storm

[Demagoguery]

I don't think Skullclamp is an auto include, I think it really depends on if you're going Combo or not. If you're playing a Gush-Combo style Pyromancer deck then you don't really need Clamp as you'll probably be very creature light. If on the other hand you're going for control or Fish where the Pyromancer is just there for value, then you can happily include a Skullclamp as you'll probably have other targets to Clamp besides the Pyromancer or the tokens he makes. Skullclamp is more mana intensive than Gush is though, and it's better to have Trinket Mages to find it than to include more Clamps, and Trinket Mage isn't great in combo decks.

Necropotence should be included always, not because it's always right but because it lets you call the deck Necro-Mancer or Young Necromancer, as in the combination of the words Necro(potence) and Young (Pyro)mancer.

Preordain is an interesting card, but I don't know if it's as necessary in the land heavier builds. Now that you can play more copies of Regrowth it does let you continue Gushing more once Fastbond is out which would be cool. Then again I just really like Regrowth as a card, so I might be championing it over Preordain for the wrong reasons.

Why no Wheel of Fortune? It's an extra Time Twister effect and it does have added benefit of interacting well with Therapy and Ancient Grudge. Especially Therapy as you can basically Wheel, discarding Therapies, and then flash back the Therapies for free to make sure you get rid of any counter magic they may have drawn before continuing with your combo chain. This seems really strong as it takes away the only drawback of having Wheel, and it increases Storm count for free as long as Pyro is in play.

[Saya]

How do you feel about Grixis Charm?I am testing the card now.