N.Y.S.E. Open I - Official Tournament Report

[A.-1.]

Brian, you can't compare Salvagers to Time Vault in a deck with at least Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Tinker to assemble a game-winning combo that often only costs four colorless. Bomberman can find the artifacts without much difficulty but then has to stumble into Salvagers with  available.

Rob, I see your point but Bomberman is set up so that is has the equivalent of Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Tinker, and Demonic Tutor in the form of Trinket Mage x4.  4WW can be a tall order but it's not significantly worse than 5B for Demonic Tutor, Vault, Key, Untap.  Also, it helps for mana generation purposes when one of the combo pieces happens to be Black Lotus.   

Are you really trying to argue that Salvagers + Lotus + Spellbomb or Top/EE is as easy to assemble as Vault/Key? It's not even close. Two-card combo > three-card combo that requires white mana.

Trying to win via Salvagers versus aggro does not seem like a winning strategy to me. Trying to win through Null Rod (BUG Fish or Merfolk) or Stony Silence plus creature hate is not something I want to be doing.
You want to stay aggro/control because your counters are better and creatures are bigger or trade favorably.

When I play against good Bomberman players, they don't begin by trying to rush into the combo.  They attempt to build board position with Trinket Mages and Jace and will tutor up the Divining Top and Engineered Explosives.  The problem is that this is just a temporary stopgap measure because decks like Merfolk and Mayor Fish have many more creatures than Bomberman and most of them actually don't trade favorably with Trinket Mages & Cliques (Islandwalking Lords, First Strike Thalia, 3/3 Wolf Tokens, Exalted Mishra's Factory) or even Salvagers (unblockable Merfolk Lords, double Exalted, Factory Pump on Exalted Factory, Exava the Blood Witch) and the extensive counter suite in Bomberman is completely useless at stopping the assault when there's a Cavern of Souls in play.  Barring God hands v. bad draws, the natural trajectory of the match v. aggro is for Bomberman to eventually become overwhelmed and forced into the position where it must combo out with Salvagers to win.  And half the time that's exactly what happens.  Since the good players realize this, they will do everything in their power to keep Null Rod/Stony Silence off the table; Spell Snares help a lot in this regard.  Obviously, if Null Rod resolves they can't combo out so they lose.  But that just highlights how important the combo is in the match-up against aggro, which should make sense since combo historically trumps aggro as a general proposition. 

Anyway, I think the Angels were great and salute the guys who did well with them.  I just don't think it's an occasion to suddenly indict a deck that has a pretty sterling record over a long period of time as containing "bad cards" or "weak parts," because it really doesn't.

Merfolk and Mayor Fish aren't played in significant numbers. Most of your examples are from Mayor Fish. Playing aggro/control versus more regularly played decks, like BUG or Esper Wizards, is a fine strategy.

No one said Salvagers was bad. No one is indicting Bomberman. The guys who brewed Blue Angels thought they could improve on Bomberman. Maybe they didn't; maybe they did. It's only one tournament, but I think it's pretty damn impressive when two out of two Blue Angels decks make top eight and zero out of four Bomberman decks make it.

[Kirika]

Thank you to Nick, the judges, security and everyone that made this event possible.  Thank you to Jeff Menges for chatting and signing my cards.   Tourney was fun. Will definitely go to the next one.  Congratulations to everyone who won a prize.

Restoration Angel in Bomberman looks interesting and something I would like to try.  Especially with the new July ruling that each player can have a Jace in play.  I have played Restoration Angel in standard and nice to see the extreme value of flashing in to block or save a 187 creature from removal while getting additional value from its CIP ability translates to vintage.   

The Affinity list looked interesting as well.

[Samoht]

...but I think it's pretty damn impressive when two out of two Blue Angels decks make top eight and zero out of four Bomberman decks make it.

er, I think that to a degree 4/8 made top 8. Paul, Lance, and Craig/Mike all played lists that started with Justin's shell - even if there were some to many modification to them. That said, one tournament isn't indicative of much other than that field and even match ups that were created in that field.

[brianpk80]

Are you really trying to argue that Salvagers + Lotus + Spellbomb or Top/EE is as easy to assemble as Vault/Key? It's not even close. Two-card combo > three-card combo that requires white mana.

No, of course not.  They're analogous not identical.

No one said Salvagers was bad. No one is indicting Bomberman.

The origin of the discussion was the comment about cutting the "weak" parts from Justin's 75.

The guys who brewed Blue Angels thought they could improve on Bomberman. Maybe they didn't; maybe they did. It's only one tournament, but I think it's pretty damn impressive when two out of two Blue Angels decks make top eight and zero out of four Bomberman decks make it.

It is impressive.  Keep in mind I didn't say anything to slight the Angel plan; what they accomplished was great.  I just don't think its success has to reflect negatively on the original Bomberman list which is also very accomplished.  The examples I used for aggro elements weren't exhaustive; whether facing a horde of Goblins, Myr tokens, or even an opponent ready to Vault+Key or Oath the following turn, there are situations usually coming from aggro where combo is the mode required to win the game and including the combo isn't indicative of "bad cards" or "weak parts" but an equally legitimate design decision.    

Congrats to everyone who did well.  

[BJPaskoff]

I was one of the judges at the event. Aside from the little snafu with the computer and printer not talking to each other, the event ran extremely smooth. Probably the smoothest I can remember in years. I brought my friend Eli down to help judge, and he was happily surprised at the community. Zero deck list errors, zero game losses, zero DQs, and zero player arguments. All of those would be unheard of at a 78+ player Standard tournament. Vintage events are the only tournaments aside from FNMs and prereleases that I still enjoy judging, just because the community around here is amazing. I do hope to get to play with you all again some day though!

Thanks Nick!

[A.-1.]

Brian, you and Eli were excellent throughout the day. From what I saw, you two handled everything quickly, concisely, and accurately. I'm glad we left a good impression on Eli.

No, of course not.  They're analogous not identical.

The only similarity is that both combos win the game. I don't think there's a comparison.

The origin of the discussion was the comment about cutting the "weak" parts from Justin's 75.

Saying a card is the weakest part of a deck does not make that card weak. We're not attacking Justin's list. Seeing if there is room for improvement is not an indictment.

I just don't think its success has to reflect negatively on the original Bomberman list which is also very accomplished.  The examples I used for aggro elements weren't exhaustive; whether facing a horde of Goblins, Myr tokens, or even an opponent ready to Vault+Key or Oath the following turn, there are situations usually coming from aggro where combo is the mode required to win the game and including the combo isn't indicative of "bad cards" or "weak parts" but an equally legitimate design decision.   

Again, no one is saying anything negative about Bomberman. Like Tom said, one tournament isn't going to produce definitive answers. But when both Blue Angels pilots top in such a quality field, one has to take notice and question: Is Bomberman built optimally? (Tom, I would consider Paul's list UB Control with a white splash, and Lance's deck is Landstill with Trinket Mage.)

Goblins and Myr tokens are fringe scenarios, but, like Vault/Key and Oath, they're all answered by EE. You don't need to combo off to beat any of those scenarios.

[Smmenen]

I was one of the judges at the event. Aside from the little snafu with the computer and printer not talking to each other, the event ran extremely smooth. Probably the smoothest I can remember in years. I brought my friend Eli down to help judge, and he was happily surprised at the community. Zero deck list errors, zero game losses, zero DQs, and zero player arguments. All of those would be unheard of at a 78+ player Standard tournament. Vintage events are the only tournaments aside from FNMs and prereleases that I still enjoy judging, just because the community around here is amazing. I do hope to get to play with you all again some day though!

Thanks Nick!

Wow.  That's truly remarkable.  I hope this is not mistaken for elitism, but the vibe at this tournament was unlike anything I had ever experienced before, and I can't help but think that it was related to the unusual entry free cost.  People who attended this tournament were truly dedicated to Vintage and the format.  The caliber of player was high, and the community felt palpable.  Amazing tournament.   

[Rolko]

Thanks to Nick and all the folks who came out and made for an amazing day, this was truly a marquee for Vintage. I hope to make it to the next event and that it will be as great as this one.

[ErtaiAdept]

I'd like to Chime in with another Thank you to Nick for a great event!  I look forward to seeing what you can do with Vintage good sir and I hope to work with you along the way to grow the Boston community as well.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Wow.  That's truly remarkable.  I hope this is not mistaken for elitism, but the vibe at this tournament was unlike anything I had ever experienced before, and I can't help but think that it was related to the unusual entry free cost.  People who attended this tournament were truly dedicated to Vintage and the format.  The caliber of player was high, and the community felt palpable.  Amazing tournament.   

The caliber of players really shined as round one pairings were being announced. Every table was like a feature match.

[brianpk80]

Again, no one is saying anything negative about Bomberman. Like Tom said, one tournament isn't going to produce definitive answers. But when both Blue Angels pilots top in such a quality field, one has to take notice and question: Is Bomberman built optimally? (Tom, I would consider Paul's list UB Control with a white splash, and Lance's deck is Landstill with Trinket Mage.)

That's reasonable.  I only chimed in because negative things were in fact being said ("weak parts") that I didn't think were justified.  Congrats Rob on the great finish and winning a Shop. 

[Protoaddict]

Had a lot of fun. Only thing I would change next time is to try to get the event closer to easy to use public transportation. I realize that it is probably cost prohibitive to think Manhattan but I have to imagine that Queens or Bklyn has an elks lodge somewhere that can be rented. Ideally maybe closer to some real food. I think if you did that, especially with a proxy event, you would have more of the city crowd come out and try to participate.

[CHA1N5]

Can Mike or Craig comment on the Aetherling in their sideboard?

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Can Mike or Craig comment on the Aetherling in their sideboard?

The aetherling is for landstill and the mirror match. Going under the assumption that cavern on shapeshifter into Aetherling the game is over.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I told Craig it should be something better...7 mana to cast and protect is silly. Even surgical extraction or that 4 mana council card thats similar to meddling mage would be fine. But Aetherling is awfully cute haha

[Samoht]

I told Craig it should be something better...7 mana to cast and protect is silly. Even surgical extraction or that 4 mana council card thats similar to meddling mage would be fine. But Aetherling is awfully cute haha

I stand behind Teferi as probably the best "Mirror" breaker, but it does have some problems that Aetherling doesn't.

[Stormanimagus]

I told Craig it should be something better...7 mana to cast and protect is silly. Even surgical extraction or that 4 mana council card thats similar to meddling mage would be fine. But Aetherling is awfully cute haha

I stand behind Teferi as probably the best "Mirror" breaker, but it does have some problems that Aetherling doesn't.

Teferi is also a human which is a better creature type with Cavern than Shapeshifter.

[Will]

I told Craig it should be something better...7 mana to cast and protect is silly. Even surgical extraction or that 4 mana council card thats similar to meddling mage would be fine. But Aetherling is awfully cute haha

I stand behind Teferi as probably the best "Mirror" breaker, but it does have some problems that Aetherling doesn't.

Teferi is also a Wizard which is a better creature type with Cavern than Shapeshifter.

Fixed that for you.  In a deck with Vendilion Clique, Trinket Mage and Restoration Angel, Wizard or Angel are the only two real choices. 

[jlim17]

Hey Nick, any chance you salvaged and could post the team rankings for this event? Not only does my team have an "artistic interest", but I'm curious (see avatar).

Fwiw, regarding Teferi over Aetherling, unless you're combo'ing off after resolving Teferi, he won't win you the game in 1-2 turns like Aetherling will. Since Blue Angels is a control deck with no game ending combo, Aetherling fits better than Teferi, from a finisher standpoint, since this deck wins via combat or Jace, not combo. However, if the deck really wants another control card to impact the game and not another finisher, then I'd say Teferi is the better choice. Perhaps consider siding out some counters to ALSO fit in Teferi, if both are needed. If you resolve Teferi, you should need less countermagic to win the game.

[Samoht]

Hey Nick, any chance you salvaged and could post the team rankings for this event? Not only does my team have an "artistic interest", but more I'm curious (see avatar).

Fwiw, regarding Teferi over Aetherling, unless you're combo'ing off after resolving Teferi, he won't win you the game in 1-2 turns like Aetherling will. Since Blue Angels is a control deck with no game ending combo, Aetherling fits better than Teferi, from a finisher standpoint, since this deck wins via combat or Jace, not combo. However, if the deck really wants another control card to impact the game and not another finisher, then I'd say Teferi is the better choice. Perhaps consider siding out some counters to ALSO fit in Teferi, if both are needed. If you resolve Teferi, you should need less countermagic to win the game.

In a control mirror, playing a creature that stops your opponent from playing counterspells is pretty insane. Add in that none of his creatures can attack through him and he looks better. Being able to play him at instant speed is what cinches it for me. Also, not needing a special Cavern name is solid.

[Greg]

Here's something fun from the N.Y.S.E. Open that I never got around to posting.

My girlfriend baked a set of "power nine" cookies for the event.



Ray got a chance to enjoy one before the rest were sold. (Some guy bought the remaining eight and disappeared with them.)

[msg67183]

@the pilot of Cavern Dredge:

What is Cavern Dredge? How well did you do? What did your list look like?

[SammieBee]

It is August 20th 2013 at 2:18pm and I am still wearing my NYSE wristband numbered 4985... just thought I'd share that...

[Prospero]

I'm honored.

I hope that the event made a mark on everyone who attended and that we're lucky enough to have everybody back for next year's event.

I have to get around to posting qualifier information soon, as well working on the details for next year's event.

[Bibendum]

Mine Literally just disintegrated off at the Coss event last weekend. Wore that with pride til the end!