Eudemonia July Results! Lists! Pics!

[DubDub]

I was vaguely aware of the rule change around triggers when it happened a few months ago, but I guess like Steve I hadn't internalized the potential severity of punishment for what could be earnest involvement by a spectator.  I'm going to have to work hard to keep my mouth shut going forward.  It's unfortunate that we're talking about a rules infraction/penalty instead of the Vintage Magic that actually got played, especially with a tournament report so full of great pictures!

Moreover, I feel bad for Steve that what I believe to be an innocent mistake drew so much mean-spirited criticism.

And for the record, I've never played MODO or MTGO or whatever, but I imagine Doritos are equally yummy at a paper-tournament.  I think we can all agree on that.

[saspook]

 I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

[aahz]

Rules shenanigans aside, this was a really fun event. Props to everyone who attended. Unlike everyone else, I do not have strong opinions about the "outside assistance".

Since apparently my handwriting is unreadable (because I filled out the decklist in BC's car), here's my actual decklist, which I believe is 3rd place (since I was 2nd after the swiss):

Pyromancers' Garden Party
(or something like that, can't remember exactly what I called it on the decklist)

Maindeck (64):
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt

Sensei's Divining Top
Nihil Spellbomb
Engineered Explosives

Voltaic Key
Time Vault
Blightsteel Colossus

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Brainstorm
Tinker
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will

3x Dark Confidant
Snapcaster Mage
Deathrite Shaman
Goblin Welder

4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
2x Spell Snare
2x Mental Misstep
1x Flusterstorm

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2x Lightning Bolt
Pyroclasm
Ancient Grudge
Hurkyl's Recall

Library of Alexandria
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Island
Mountain


Sideboard (12):
Illness in the Ranks
Viashino Heretic
Vandalblast
2x Ingot Chewer
Flusterstorm
Echoing Truth
Yixlid Jailer
Grafdigger's Cage
Pithing Needle
Nature's Ruin
Sower of Temptation

[Samoht]

Rules shenanigans aside, this was a really fun event. Props to everyone who attended. Unlike everyone else, I do not have strong opinions about the "outside assistance".

Since apparently my handwriting is unreadable (because I filled out the decklist in BC's car), here's my actual decklist, which I believe is 3rd place (since I was 2nd after the swiss):

Pyromancers' Garden Party
(or something like that, can't remember exactly what I called it on the decklist)

Maindeck (64):
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt

Sensei's Divining Top
Nihil Spellbomb
Engineered Explosives

Voltaic Key
Time Vault
Blightsteel Colossus

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Brainstorm
Tinker
Mystical Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will

3x Dark Confidant
Snapcaster Mage
Deathrite Shaman
Goblin Welder

4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
2x Spell Snare
2x Mental Misstep
1x Flusterstorm

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2x Lightning Bolt
Pyroclasm
Ancient Grudge
Hurkyl's Recall

Library of Alexandria
Strip Mine
Tolarian Academy
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Island
Mountain


Sideboard (12):
Illness in the Ranks
Viashino Heretic
Vandalblast
2x Ingot Chewer
Flusterstorm
Echoing Truth
Yixlid Jailer
Grafdigger's Cage
Pithing Needle
Nature's Ruin
Sower of Temptation

Erm, that deck is sweet but illegal. You need to have a 15 card sideboard or no sideboard. You can adjust that count during the match to anywhere from 0 to 15, but you must start with a 15 card SB. Not that it's a terribly big deal, but please be aware of that for the future if the events become sanctioned. You cant start 64/12 and then go to 61/15 or something like that if it was your intention.

I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

He didn't skip the trigger at all, he just didn't announce it. Those are two very different things. Trying to bait a counterspell is a tactic, trying to resolve the Sphere through your OWN chalice is cheating. Please be more knowledgeable before calling someone out as a cheater. It has drastic impacts and influences well beyond what you say - even if you are demonstrably wrong in saying it.

[infant_no_1]

The sideboard rules changed with the most recent rules update.

You can have anywhere from 0 to 15. You no longer have to go 1:1 for changes, as long as your main deck is at least 60 & your sideboard is no more than 15.

Also updated: Legends rule, Planeswalkers rule, the way land drops are handled.

EDIT: I think it's a misplay to not start with 15 cards, but you are not required.

[liberalbias]

I had a great time playing Vintage again, and had some nail-biting, highly-interactive games. I played a version of Paul Mastriano's deck from the NYSE event, with a Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique in place of the Thoughtseizes (I wanted more ways to kill opposing Jaces). Here's my mini report:

Round 1: Michael on Aggro Mud

Michael was playing the very aggressive Ravager/Genesis Chamber deck, also from the NYSE event. He was on the play in game one and dropped Revokers on Jace and Time Vault on turn one, and then another on Voltaic Key on turn two. I was on a hand with Time Vault and a tutor, which was awkward. I also couldn't find a Hurkyl's before the tournament, making the tutor relatively worthless. I lost in fairly short order. In game two I had a great control hand and managed to stop his first and second wave of threats before drawing into a land clump. He was using Mana Crypt and two Ancient Tombs for mana, so by the time he found another wave of threats, he was very low on life. I managed to bluff having a Snapcaster Mage to keep his two Revokers from attacking for a turn (they had my Time Vault locked down) and that was enough for Mana Crypt to finish him off. The third game went almost exactly the same, except when I drew into the land clump he hit a couple Lodestone Golems and they went all the way.

Round 2: Mike on Esper Control

Mike dropped a Library of Alexandria first turn, on the play, and I was sure that would be it. But he didn't have a counter for my turn on Bob, and seemed to be drawing blanks, so I quickly assembled Vault/Key and then Jace for the win. My notes for the second game are very sparse, but I recall playing Time Walk three times in a row (Snapcaster, then Yawg) for the win.

Round 3: George with Strix Control

This was one of my favorite matches of the day, despite losing it. I kept a hand, on the draw, that was relatively slow, with two mana drains, but no Force of Will. George had a quick hand with two moxes that let him power out a turn two Jace with FoW backup and then a Tezzeret with counter backup a couple turns later. The second game was pretty intense, with both of us drawing off Bob and trading counterspells. I had Tinker and Mana Crypt out early, but he had a Welder to prevent me from winning with BSC. I finally managed to sculpt a turn where I could play Jace, bounce his Goblin, Tinker for Colossus and still have a blue mana left over to Spell Snare his Time Walk. The final game was very close, but in the end his pair of Welders were too much for me to fight through to get BSC or Time Vault going.

Round 4: Ibrahim on Jace/Bob Control

This was a very quick match, owing to some bad luck on Ibrahim's part, which he took very well. He had to double mulligan on the play (I didn't win a single die roll on the day!), and I quickly assembled Key/Vault. In the second game I had a great hand with a turn one Bob that led to a quick Tinker/BSC with massive counter backup.

Round 5: Danny on Jace/Bob Control

Another great match with three back-and-forth games. In the first game Danny, on the play, had Lotus, Ancestral and Bob on turn one. I battled back with my own Bob, but was just too many cards behind to win the last counter war over Vault/Key. In game two I kept a hand with Lotus, 2x Island, Bob and Mana Drain, so I couldn't play Bob with counter backup until turn two. Danny had another Lotus, Ancestral and Bob on his turn one, so the game was on. I don't recall the exact sequence for how I won this game, but I'm pretty sure I Mana Drained a spell of his to power up Time Vault and Key with a Jace in play. I have somehow completely blanked on what happened in game three, but my life total notes show a lot of Dark Confidant triggers, Mental Missteps and Forces, and Danny won it.


Thanks again to Eudemonia for hosting the tournament, and to Stephen for doing the legwork to make it happen. It's great to have Vintage back in the Bay Area, and I'd play every weekend if I had the chance. It was great to meet all the people I hadn't previously met, and I look forward to battling again in the future!

[Samoht]

The sideboard rules changed with the most recent rules update.

You can have anywhere from 0 to 15. You no longer have to go 1:1 for changes, as long as your main deck is at least 60 & your sideboard is no more than 15.

Also updated: Legends rule, Planeswalkers rule, the way land drops are handled.

EDIT: I think it's a misplay to not start with 15 cards, but you are not required.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrvintage

edit: apparently the rules changed 3 days after the update to deck construction rules. I had even fact checked their site before posting. You are decidedly correct. I had assumed that a July 2013 update would be accurate. Oh well.

[Samoht]

I had a great time playing Vintage again, and had some nail-biting, highly-interactive games. I played a version of Paul Mastriano's deck from the NYSE event, with a Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique in place of the Thoughtseizes (I wanted more ways to kill opposing Jaces). Here's my mini report:

Round 1: Michael on Aggro Mud

Michael was playing the very aggressive Ravager/Genesis Chamber deck, also from the NYSE event. He was on the play in game one and dropped Revokers on Jace and Time Vault on turn one, and then another on Voltaic Key on turn two. I was on a hand with Time Vault and a tutor, which was awkward. I also couldn't find a Hurkyl's before the tournament, making the tutor relatively worthless. I lost in fairly short order. In game two I had a great control hand and managed to stop his first and second wave of threats before drawing into a land clump. He was using Mana Crypt and two Ancient Tombs for mana, so by the time he found another wave of threats, he was very low on life. I managed to bluff having a Snapcaster Mage to keep his two Revokers from attacking for a turn (they had my Time Vault locked down) and that was enough for Mana Crypt to finish him off. The third game went almost exactly the same, except when I drew into the land clump he hit a couple Lodestone Golems and they went all the way.

Round 2: Mike on Esper Control

Mike dropped a Library of Alexandria first turn, on the play, and I was sure that would be it. But he didn't have a counter for my turn on Bob, and seemed to be drawing blanks, so I quickly assembled Vault/Key and then Jace for the win. My notes for the second game are very sparse, but I recall playing Time Walk three times in a row (Snapcaster, then Yawg) for the win.

Round 3: George with Strix Control

This was one of my favorite matches of the day, despite losing it. I kept a hand, on the draw, that was relatively slow, with two mana drains, but no Force of Will. George had a quick hand with two moxes that let him power out a turn two Jace with FoW backup and then a Tezzeret with counter backup a couple turns later. The second game was pretty intense, with both of us drawing off Bob and trading counterspells. I had Tinker and Mana Crypt out early, but he had a Welder to prevent me from winning with BSC. I finally managed to sculpt a turn where I could play Jace, bounce his Goblin, Tinker for Colossus and still have a blue mana left over to Spell Snare his Time Walk. The final game was very close, but in the end his pair of Welders were too much for me to fight through to get BSC or Time Vault going.

Round 4: Ibrahim on Jace/Bob Control

This was a very quick match, owing to some bad luck on Ibrahim's part, which he took very well. He had to double mulligan on the play (I didn't win a single die roll on the day!), and I quickly assembled Key/Vault. In the second game I had a great hand with a turn one Bob that led to a quick Tinker/BSC with massive counter backup.

Round 5: Danny on Jace/Bob Control

Another great match with three back-and-forth games. In the first game Danny, on the play, had Lotus, Ancestral and Bob on turn one. I battled back with my own Bob, but was just too many cards behind to win the last counter war over Vault/Key. In game two I kept a hand with Lotus, 2x Island, Bob and Mana Drain, so I couldn't play Bob with counter backup until turn two. Danny had another Lotus, Ancestral and Bob on his turn one, so the game was on. I don't recall the exact sequence for how I won this game, but I'm pretty sure I Mana Drained a spell of his to power up Time Vault and Key with a Jace in play. I have somehow completely blanked on what happened in game three, but my life total notes show a lot of Dark Confidant triggers, Mental Missteps and Forces, and Danny won it.


Thanks again to Eudemonia for hosting the tournament, and to Stephen for doing the legwork to make it happen. It's great to have Vintage back in the Bay Area, and I'd play every weekend if I had the chance. It was great to meet all the people I hadn't previously met, and I look forward to battling again in the future!

Rd1 - Your line should be Tutor for Tinker -> BSC in the face of Revokers, not Hurkyl's.

Rd2 - I'd never counter a bob if it meant turning off my LoA. You pay life, he pays tapping a land. He's winning that trade. Having TV+K stick must have been sweet though.  Snapcaster exiles Time Walk, so you couldn't have played it through Yawg.

[rooneg]

Round 2: Mike on Esper Control

Mike dropped a Library of Alexandria first turn, on the play, and I was sure that would be it. But he didn't have a counter for my turn on Bob, and seemed to be drawing blanks, so I quickly assembled Vault/Key and then Jace for the win. My notes for the second game are very sparse, but I recall playing Time Walk three times in a row (Snapcaster, then Yawg) for the win.

How can you Time Walk three times via Snapcaster and Yawgmoth's Will?  Snapcaster gives flashback, which exiles the spell after it's cast, as does Yawgmoth's Will.

[ELD]

 I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

Agreed.  Saw this in the OP and had to read the rest of the comments to make sure I wasn't going to repeat what someone else said.  This type of play really shows that people should just stick to playing the game as soundly as they know how.  To put yourself in a spot where you can be DQ'd for trying to walk the line is a poor risk/reward ratio, especially when you're not well versed in the rules. 

[Smmenen]

I watched this incident carefully, and what happened was that Jeff put Sphere on the stack, and pass priority to Rich.   Rich audibly indicated that he did not want that to resolve, and seemed to be considering countering it.  Rich then seemed to rethink his decision and decided not to.  I don't know whether he was bluffing or not.  But he was surprised when Jeff said: my Sphere is countered.  I explained to Rich that Chalice @ 2 was in play, along with other observers and Jeff. 

The point is that Jeff clearly used the Sphere play in a way that was consistent with the examples of how trigger rule has been used in Legacy, to try to bait out countermagic for cards that will be countered anyway.  I don't think the Judge was watching at that point, but I don't think there was anything wrong with what he did. 

[liberalbias]

Round 2: Mike on Esper Control

Mike dropped a Library of Alexandria first turn, on the play, and I was sure that would be it. But he didn't have a counter for my turn on Bob, and seemed to be drawing blanks, so I quickly assembled Vault/Key and then Jace for the win. My notes for the second game are very sparse, but I recall playing Time Walk three times in a row (Snapcaster, then Yawg) for the win.

How can you Time Walk three times via Snapcaster and Yawgmoth's Will?  Snapcaster gives flashback, which exiles the spell after it's cast, as does Yawgmoth's Will.

Ouch, good point, we both completely missed that. It's been three years since I played Vintage, and I hadn't ever played with Snapcaster before, so I just screwed that up.

With respect to game one of the first match, the tutor was a DT, and I was dead before I had the mana to both DT and Tinker. I had kept a hand with no acceleration, so I would have needed to play Time Vault, then tutor, then tinker, then attack, by which point I was already dead. Definitely a reminder to avoid hands with no acceleration or FoW on the draw in a Vintage tournament.

[vaughnbros]

Congrats to the top 8 of this tournament.  Its always good to see vintage in the US outside of the north east.  I feel bad for Stephen who was penalized for something I'm sure many of us have could have potentially done.  I'm sure after this we will all now remember this rule well though.

I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

He didn't skip the trigger at all, he just didn't announce it. Those are two very different things. Trying to bait a counterspell is a tactic, trying to resolve the Sphere through your OWN chalice is cheating. Please be more knowledgeable before calling someone out as a cheater. It has drastic impacts and influences well beyond what you say - even if you are demonstrably wrong in saying it.

I am very confused by this.  So I don't have to announce my triggers immediately after they occur?  Wouldn't waiting to trigger it until after my opponent casts a counterspell be considered missing my trigger?

Rd2 - I'd never counter a bob if it meant turning off my LoA. You pay life, he pays tapping a land. He's winning that trade. Having TV+K stick must have been sweet though.  Snapcaster exiles Time Walk, so you couldn't have played it through Yawg.

You can however Time walk >>> Noxious Revival Time Walk>>> Snapcaster Noxious Revival Time Walk>>> Snapcaster Time Walk.  Right Tom?  

[LotusHead]

 I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

Agreed.  Saw this in the OP and had to read the rest of the comments to make sure I wasn't going to repeat what someone else said.  This type of play really shows that people should just stick to playing the game as soundly as they know how.  To put yourself in a spot where you can be DQ'd for trying to walk the line is a poor risk/reward ratio, especially when you're not well versed in the rules. 

I don't think I have to actually announce every little trigger, especially invisible ones like Exalted and Chalice of the Void. Also, i did not at any point miss a trigger (in fact, I tossed my Sphere in my graveyard after failing to bait out a counterspell).  If I put my Sphere into play despite my Chalice of the Void set at 2, then that would definately be cheating (as I was super aware of my Chalice for 2, not "forgetting it" by any means).

I welcome discourse about my line of play, and whether not specifically anouncing my out chalice (ie, advertizing it) is illegal, or solid play. (as opposed to acknowledging the trigger, which I did at the appropriate time).  I take no offense to Saspook saying my line of play was cheating.  I might start a thread in the rules forum, but I'm at work right now.

[vaughnbros]

I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

Agreed.  Saw this in the OP and had to read the rest of the comments to make sure I wasn't going to repeat what someone else said.  This type of play really shows that people should just stick to playing the game as soundly as they know how.  To put yourself in a spot where you can be DQ'd for trying to walk the line is a poor risk/reward ratio, especially when you're not well versed in the rules.  

I don't think I have to actually announce every little trigger, especially invisible ones like Exalted and Chalice of the Void. Also, i did not at any point miss a trigger (in fact, I tossed my Sphere in my graveyard after failing to bait out a counterspell).  If I put my Sphere into play despite my Chalice of the Void set at 2, then that would definately be cheating (as I was super aware of my Chalice for 2, not "forgetting it" by any means).

I know in one of wizards articles about the rules on triggers they specifically said they must announce all your triggers and highlighted exalted as an "invisible" trigger that you must announce.  I am not sure if the rules have changed since that article though as they seem to change every few days now...

[Samoht]

Congrats to the top 8 of this tournament.  Its always good to see vintage in the US outside of the north east.  I feel bad for Stephen who was penalized for something I'm sure many of us have could have potentially done.  I'm sure after this we will all now remember this rule well though.

I don't believe for a minute that I would have let my own Sphere of Resistance resolve, even though I played into my own Chalice for 2, hoping Rich forgets that it will be countered anyways.  

LotusHead, I think your play with the Sphere of resistance was cheating and should have resulted in a DQ.  You intentionally did not announce the trigger and moved the game state to a point where you passed priority aware of the trigger trying to induce your opponent to make a mistake.  Whether that mistake was allowing it to resolve through the Chalice or using a spell in hand to counter the Sphere is irrelevant.

At all Rules Enforcement Levels: Just like before you are responsible for your own triggers. Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger will get you kicked out of a tournament faster than you can say "cumulative upkeep." Regardless if you miss your own trigger raise your hand and call a judge.

He didn't skip the trigger at all, he just didn't announce it. Those are two very different things. Trying to bait a counterspell is a tactic, trying to resolve the Sphere through your OWN chalice is cheating. Please be more knowledgeable before calling someone out as a cheater. It has drastic impacts and influences well beyond what you say - even if you are demonstrably wrong in saying it.

I am very confused by this.  So I don't have to announce my triggers immediately after they occur?  Wouldn't waiting to trigger it until after my opponent casts a counterspell be considered missing my trigger?

Rd2 - I'd never counter a bob if it meant turning off my LoA. You pay life, he pays tapping a land. He's winning that trade. Having TV+K stick must have been sweet though.  Snapcaster exiles Time Walk, so you couldn't have played it through Yawg.

You can however Time walk >>> Noxious Revival Time Walk>>> Snapcaster Noxious Revival Time Walk>>> Snapcaster Time Walk.  Right Tom?  

Yes you can Lance. Yes. YOU can.    (want to sell reading Runechanter's Pike and casting Ancient Grudge).

re Chalice: The trigger is on the stack already. You haven't skipped it. You have to pass priority before the trigger resolves. We shortcut this all the time in games. If they choose to counter the spell despite the Chalice trigger, that's their decision.

[UnderachievementNexus]

You have to still announce your chalice trigger. Not announcing it is just sloppy play because "everyone shortcuts" in vintage

[Cruel Ultimatum]

You have to still announce your chalice trigger. Not announcing it is just sloppy play because "everyone shortcuts" in vintage

You don't have to verbally say anything. You just need to demonstrate awareness that the trigger exists, you know like putting it in the graveyard after priority is passed aka what lotushead did.

[UnderachievementNexus]

that's the kind of shady play that walks the line between cheating and abiding by the rules. I guess it's a difference in player preference. I wouldn't play my cards like that. I announce my triggers whenever I have them

[Purple Hat]

this whole conversation is a very good example, in my mind anyway, of why the new trigger rules are bad.  that said, they're the rules so we have to deal.

Yes, Steve should have known better than to step in.  That said, triggers that don't have an optional clause shouldn't be optional.  Then you put judges in the position of having to decide if someone missed a confidant trigger or mana crypt trigger by accident or on purpose.  This type of thing happens all the time.  It shouldn't, but this is the rules text on chalice:

Chalice of the Void enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

someone explain to me how "whenever a player casts a spell..." actually means "whenever a player casts a spell, unless its your opponent, and you forget or don't want it to happen and are able to convince a judge you just forgot, or if its you and you don't want it countered, but you can convince a judge you forgot..."

it says "whenever" it should mean "whenever"  this isn't like banding or trample where it's a keyword with a special meaning.  it should happen whenever it's supposed to happen automatically

@Lotushead: I think your play toes the line, but stays inside of it.  I've never been a big fan of the mind game aspect of it though.

[Pure Scrubbery]

Sounds like it was a great time, rules disputes aside. I like to see some gush decks rolling around rather than tons of oath/combo.

I am just getting back into vintage myself after a (5?) year hiatus, and was hoping to make this tournament. Unfortunately on Saturday I felt like I hadn't done enough testing. I usually like to play fish, which seems difficult in the inconsistent meta that appears to be around the Bay. I live in SF and if anyone ever wants to test some T1 send me a PM.

[vaughnbros]

My initial question is what is the correct play according to the rules, not what happens during games.  From this discussion the correct play is to announce your triggers.  We generally short cut things like tapping to tangle wire, and setting up vault key because vintage is usually a friendly atmosphere.  Its one thing to forget you have a chalice at 2 out and play sphere.  Its a completely different thing to play into it to bait a counter.  Imho plays like what Lotushead did are taking advantage of this friendly environment and shouldnt be condened or tolerated.  If these kinds of plays become the norm I think it would force us to be much more cutthroat with each other and hence seriously hinder our enjoyment of the game.

[Samoht]

My initial question is what is the correct play according to the rules, not what happens during games.  From this discussion the correct play is to announce your triggers.  We generally short cut things like tapping to tangle wire, and setting up vault key because vintage is usually a friendly atmosphere.  Its one thing to forget you have a chalice at 2 out and play sphere.  Its a completely different thing to play into it to bait a counter.  Imho plays like what Lotushead did are taking advantage of this friendly environment and shouldnt be condened or tolerated.  If these kinds of plays become the norm I think it would force us to be much more cutthroat with each other and hence seriously hinder our enjoyment of the game.

What if he casts Lingering Souls into Illness in the Ranks? Does he have to tell his opponent that the tokens won't be long for this world? Of course not. Granted there is no trigger at the time of the cast (or ever) but the point is that it is a gamesmanship move intended to bait a counter spell as opposed to trying to advance position. I catalog them in the same place despite the lack of trigger. I think his line of play is solid, not cut throat. If you are playing a game, and do not check the status of affairs enough to know that it will be countered and choose to counter the spell then you deserve to lose out on the resources. There is a difference between friendly magic and table top/casual magic. I have a much bigger problem with playing a Sphere into a Chalice 2 because you forgot about Chalice 2 and letting it stick (speaking as the aficionado of Grafdigger's Cage) than I do with intentionally running it into the Chalice to bait a counter.

that's the kind of shady play that walks the line between cheating and abiding by the rules. I guess it's a difference in player preference. I wouldn't play my cards like that. I announce my triggers whenever I have them

You didn't announce several triggers in the two matches that we've played recently, and I'm sure you've missed others at other points. We both knew what was going on and as such we short cut them. It's part of the convention of playing. Trying to parcel out which triggers to announce and when is very difficult I grant you but that doesn't mean that we have to announce every trigger every time.

[LotusHead]

Its one thing to forget you have a chalice at 2 out and play sphere.  Its a completely different thing to play into it to bait a counter.  Imho plays like what Lotushead did are taking advantage of this friendly environment and shouldnt be condened or tolerated.  If these kinds of plays become the norm I think it would force us to be much more cutthroat with each other and hence seriously hinder our enjoyment of the game.

I am curious if Rich Shay would consider it taking advantage of this friendly environment, or a solid play (even if it puts me down a useless card) and a welcome challenge.  Had my ploy worked (and he Forced my sphere, or better yet Mana Drained it), I would have pointed to my Chalice at 2. Interesting discussion!

I know in one of wizards articles about the rules on triggers they specifically said they must announce all your triggers and highlighted exalted as an "invisible" trigger that you must announce.  I am not sure if the rules have changed since that article though as they seem to change every few days now...

I mentioned Exalted because I knew it was an "invisible" trigger, but if I got the rules backwards (Pyreheart Wolf was another card mentioned in another article). If I got things backwards, then I wanna know about it.

[The Atog Lord]

I felt the play was perfectly fine. It was a mindgame, and it made the game more interesting. No problem with it at all.

My only concern is checking that the play is legal. I think it is, but I'm not 100% on that. So long as it is, I've no problem with it whatsoever.

[LotusHead]

I felt the play was perfectly fine. It was a mindgame, and it made the game more interesting. No problem with it at all.

My only concern is checking that the play is legal. I think it is, but I'm not 100% on that. So long as it is, I've no problem with it whatsoever.

I started thread in rules forum. We'll get to the bottom of this.

[hiryu]

Personally I think the new trigger rules make a lot of sense, and the only reason people think they're bad is because of all the other crappy versions we've had in the past and the endless confusion that caused.  But on to the mini-report.

At the last Eudo event I played BUG fish to a finals split.  The deck was sweet but I wanted to play something more powerful, so I picked up Bob/Jace (2nd place list in initial post).  I moved a Viashino Heretic to the main because I expected a lot of shops.  It never really came up, but in hindsight it's Gorilla Shaman I want in the main.

Round 1 vs Adam (Bob/Jace): Three crazy complicated games that I don't remember many the details of.  In game 3 when he got out Key/Vault, backing it up with Mana Drain and then passed the turn because he was tapped out.  I did not remind him of his Mana Drain trigger in the second main phase -- thanks, new rules!  I almost clawed back into it, but he had two perfect cards on top of his deck.

Round 2 vs Galen (Drain Tendrils): Galen is 0-1 because his car was late for round 1.  Game 1 I make a turn 1 Blightsteel and pass.  He does not find a bounce spell.  Game 2 I don't counter his Fact or Fiction so that I can keep my Library active.  He ends up with a Mox and Intuition, putting one Accumulated Knowledge in the yard.  He Intuitions for AK and I counter the AK.  So far so good, but I have no other action and he continues to draw large numbers of cards.  Eventually he goes for it, Rebuilding his Moxes, then Chain of Vaporing them all, massing up a huge storm count while I just close my eyes and think of England.  Right when I'm about to die he realizes he doesn't have a second black and passes the turn.  I get a Bob out and we draw-go for a while.  Fortunately Bob gives me a Flusterstorm the turn before Galen can kill me for real, buying time for me close out the game.

Round 3 vs Ryan R (Bomberman): Ryan is 1-1 because he was in the car with Galen.  Game one is super tight.  I get blown out early by Aven Mindcensor, but after a lot of grinding I pull out the game.  Game 2 I can search my WHOLE library and it's super-nice.  I set up Vault-Key, but I have a Bob out and only two mana and 11 life.  First three flips are Force, Demonic Tutor, and Force and that's all she wrote.  In game 3 I counter his Yawg Will and play my own, finishing with a Tinker on top of my library and a Key and a spare artifact in play.  He has one turn to topdeck and comes up with an Aven Mindcensor!  Fortunately this time I have a Bolt.

Round 4 vs Ryan D (Shop aggro): I have a crazy good draw in round 1... at one point I have about 8 permanents in play (including Jace) to his board of just 2 Ancient Tombs and 6 life.  Of course I lost that game, not close.  In game two many Ingots are chewed, including one paid for with Mana Drain mana that goes the distance.  More chewing of Ingots in game 3, along with a Blightsteel to seal the deal.

Round 5 vs Sam (Shop aggro): ID

Top 8 vs Heiner (Bob/Jace): Heiner takes some mulligans and I draw pretty well, taking it down in two games.

Top 4 vs Adam (Bob/Jace): A rematch from round 1!  I think I lost the first one, but in games 2 and 3 my mox monkey munches many a mox and I emerge victorious with a flurry of Lightning Bolts to the head.

Top 2 vs Rich (Young Americans): I mulligan an unkeepable 7 into Library, Mox Jet, Bolt, Bolt, Snapcaster, Snapcaster.  I don't like it, but since he doesn't have Tinker I really only care about Bob and Pyromancer and we do have answers.  Unfortunately I don't find a red source and he has a quick Bob into Ancestral into Pyromancer into counter everything.  Game 2 I have a borderline 7, but don't draw anything of note while he has basically the same draw.

So, the day before the tournament I played Young Pyromancer in M14 sealed, and really wanted to make him work in Vintage but couldn't do it.  Huge props to Rich and Steve for pulling it off, and in two different and interesting ways!

[Nefarias]

the program will never tell you how to make a Doomsday pile

While this is true, if you're at home playing MODO, there's also nothing stopping you from opening up Microsoft Internet Explorer and using Google to find an article telling you how to make Doomsday piles.

This is easily the second worst argument I've read on TMD in a long time. Honestly, who uses Internet Explorer? And if you are, you're more likely to be using Alta Vista than Google. 

Seriously though, since I'm posting anyway I'll throw in my two cents on the trigger thing.  I'm not going to post in the relevant Rules Forum because I don't want a strongly worded PM from a certain moderator extraordinaire over there, but here's my understanding of the recent history of the trigger rules:

Within the last two years, they made a rule that all triggers had to be announced immediately upon triggering or they were "missed." My recollection was that it was probably in the M13 rules change because I know it affected Exalted. If you didn't announce those triggers and you allowed your opponent to move to blocks, your creature did not get the exalted pumps. Another high profile Standard interaction was with Jace, Architect of Thought's +1 ability. If you didn't announce it when attackers were declared, it didn't happen, even if you had no blockers and went to adjust your life total as if it had. Both of these examples were generally panned for two reasons in particular: 1) they added what were normally unnecessary steps/bookkeeping in regards to actually verbalizing triggers of which you were fully aware, and 2) it took away some strategic angles such as hoping your opponent wouldn't realize your Exalted creature was lethal and not block, or block your 2/2 with 3 Exalted triggers with their 2/3 expecting it to survive, etc.

People generally hated this rules for specifically those types of cases, so they changed them to what they are today. Now you have to acknowledge that your triggers occurred when it becomes relevant. So in both the above examples, more or less as long as it's acknowledged when combat damage is resolved, it's fine (unless of course it becomes relevant beforehand, like if your opponent asks you the size of a certain creature or if a Selesnya Charm's second mode is cast midcombat, etc.)

I'll be honest that when I read the initial account of the SoR play it immediately struck me as wrong, but after thinking about it and based on my (admittedly imperfect) understanding of the rules/history, I think the play was within the current rules.

[Purple Hat]

I felt the play was perfectly fine. It was a mindgame, and it made the game more interesting. No problem with it at all.

My only concern is checking that the play is legal. I think it is, but I'm not 100% on that. So long as it is, I've no problem with it whatsoever.

the second part of this is exactly where my issue with the new rules is.  Assuming this is illegal (I believe chalice triggers when you cast the sphere so you can't pass priority then suddenly "remember" your trigger): If you forgot....no penalty....if you did it as a tactical mind game... immediate dq.  I think it puts too much pressure on judges to make that determination.

[Bibendum]

I mean by state based effects wouldn't you pass priority then your opponent responds then your chalice checks? So technically (speaking 100% by the rules) you don't have time to say your thing has been countered until your opponent decides? If thats the case then as Rich said there should be no real issue with the play. By the time the chalice checks priority has to have been passed back to you.