Chalice of the Void Triggers, Announcing it...

[LotusHead]

Chalice of the Void  XX
Types:
Artifact
Card Text:
Chalice of the Void enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

"Hypothetically", I'm playing Shops vs a solid Vintage player playing counterspells and answers.  I have Chalice of the Void with 2 charge counters and not much else going on. I draw a Sphere of Resistance which is worthless right now, because of my Chalice.  I want to make my opponent make a bad play and waste a card on my Sphere of Resistance.

I announce my Sphere of Resistance, pay for it, and dramatically place it on the stack in between us and ask "I play this super scary Sphere of Resistance, would you like to counter it, sir?"  He looks at his hand, looks at the sphere, looks at me, I embelish "all your spells will cost one more if it resolves."  He thinks for maybe 15 seconds (long enough for me to take a pic of the gamestate), I cross my fingers and hope for the best.  He says it's fine, you can have your sphere. I say "dang it!" and put it into the graveyard, probably pointing to sphere as I do it. I say, "It might have worked. It might have...".


Is anything with this line of play wrong?  Is it cheating? Or do the rules say that I would have to Announce and play Sphere of Resistance, then immediately point to my Chalice and say, oh, that is on the stack. Would you like to counter my Sphere?

There are plenty of opinions on a play just like this in the latest Eudemonia Vintage tourney thread, and people are welcome to share their opinions there, as that is much a community issue.
Here is that thread

This thread is for Judges to settle.

Thank you very much for your time.

[bactgudz]

I'm not a judge, so take this with a grain of salt...but my understanding is that the current trigger rulings boil down to announce when it becomes relevant.  When you cast sphere and pass priority, the stack looks like sphere with chalice trigger on top and your opponent has priority.  At this time, it is not technically relevant to the visible gamestate that there is a chalice trigger on the stack.  Note that sphere should clearly be on the stack and not in play.

MTR:
4.4
Triggered Abilities
Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one is Cheating.
Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so within a turn if they wish.
Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game. Triggered abilities that are forgotten are not considered to have gone onto the stack.

The IPG section 2.1 also makes this clear:
2.1.
Game Play Error—Missed Trigger
Definition
A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

[vaughnbros]

MTR:
4.4
Triggered Abilities
Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one is Cheating.
Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so within a turn if they wish.
Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game. Triggered abilities that are forgotten are not considered to have gone onto the stack.

The IPG section 2.1 also makes this clear:
2.1.
Game Play Error—Missed Trigger
Definition
A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

We definitely need a high level judge for this one.  As these rules seem to create a gray area on what is and isn't a legal play.

In this case if the player playing sphere of resistance asks "Does it resolve?" would be considered illegal?  However saying "would you like to counter it" is legal?

[PucktheCat]

I will make the argument that it is cheating for sake of advancing the discussion:

Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one is Cheating.

This seems to apply.  LotusHead admits that he intentionally ignored his own trigger.  There is no reference in this clause of the rule to the "observable impact" language that appears in the other rules regarding "forgotten" triggers.  This wasn't a forgotten trigger.  It was an intentionally ignored trigger.  That is cheating.

[wiley]

It doesn't matter what he asks, it is all about what zone he moves it to when it comes off the stack.  If he moves it to the graveyard then it is a legal play, if he moves it to the battlefield it is a missed trigger and a judge needs to be called.  When the object changes zones is when you are forced to acknowledge the trigger or it is considered missed.

With chalice it is far harder to prove intent to cheat than with something like bob, so more than likely any investigation will simply result in a missed trigger violation and a close eye being kept on the player to see if they do it again.


An even better question is if your opponent is at 2 life and you have a chalice at 2 in play what happens when you forget (intentional or otherwise) your chalice trigger when they stupidly play a night's whisper?  How does the ruling change if the mistake isn't caught before one or both of you start shuffling up?

If it helps to have a more plausible example what if they cast a doomsday at 1 life when you have a chalice on 3? (since they might not realize they die to their doomsday)

[Prospero]

We're going to wait for Clariax to respond to these questions and answer them properly.  We're not going to accuse anyone of cheating and we're not going to turn this into a flame-war.

[Clariax]

It's a matter of whether the person attempts to resolve the spell or not.  This is a gray area because it's all about the communication between the players, and communication in one match may be different than communication in another.  As long as the spell is still on the stack, you haven't gone past the point of Chalice's trigger resolving, so having missed it (or intentionally ignored it).