[Free Podcast] SMIP #29: Theros Set Review & Vintage PTQs

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-29-theros/



Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Theros, grade their M14 report card and discuss Magic Online Vintage and Legacy PTQs!

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 2:41:58 — 94.1MB)

0:01:00: Announcements – Upcoming Tournaments and Vintage PTQs?
0:18:08: M14 Report Card
0:27:14: Theros Keywords, themes and cycles
0:53:32: Swan Song
1:04:31: Curse of the Swine
1:11:42: Bident of Thassa
1:14:57: Dissolve
1:17:33: Chained to the Rocks
1:23:04: Ashen Rider
1:26:56: Hero’s Downfall
1:30:32: Triton Fortune Hunter
1:35:28: Akroan Crusader
1:38:37: Anger of the Gods
1:42:34: Read the Bones
1:53:07: Mistcutter Hydra
1:59:41: Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2:03:42: Daxos of Meletis
2:13:13: Psychic Intrusion
2:19:11: Spellheart Chimera
2:24:19: Steam Augury
2:39:56: Listener Feedback
Total runtime: 2:41:57

Other Show Notes

- Team Serious Vintage Open – Comic Town – Columbus OH – September 28
- Vintage Tournament at Odyssey Games in Kalamazoo, MI – October 5
- Vintage Tournament at Eudemonia in Berkeley, CA – October 27
- Mark Rosewater’s 2002 Vintage article
- Vintage Top 8′s for M14 Report Card
- Theros Visual Spoiler

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.


Note: Jaco did a really good job of pasting the twitter conversation we touched on, so click over to Eternal central to read it...

[MaximumCDawg]

I just got to your discussion of fortune hunter... here's hoping you remember that storm does not CAST the additional copies, and therefore is worthless with heroic, later in the podcast...

EDIT: On the topic of Heroic -- since I can't listen to the podcast any more for awhile -- it might be helpful if you guys checked out the Mana Drain threads on new sets going into your review.  We went over some of the things that DO work with Heroic.  Spoiler alert:  They're all pretty stinky as far as Vintage goes.

First, you got your repeatable enchantments like Rancor + Auratog (lol), Flickering Ward, Mark of Fury, etc.  These are terrible cards on their own, so this is probably a non starter.  I could see some kind of janky Enchantress + Auratog + Parallax Tide thing being played for the LOLs.

Next, you got your Flashback cards.  Hunter makes Artful Dodge, Canopy Claws, Deadly Allure, Defy Gravity, Feeling of Dread, and Thrill of the Hunt into somewhat decent draw spells.  However, again, they are bad on their own.  The only ones that are interesting are Deadly Allure, which is not a terrible wrath effect, and maybe Thrill of the Hunt in a deck also featuring Cold-Eyed Selkie.  I dunno.  

Finally, you got your Rebound spells.  Distortion Strike reads "draw a card now, and draw a card next upkeep" for U, which is absurd.  It deals 6 damage to your opponent in the bargain, since your dork is swinging unblockably!  See also crappy cards: Emerge Unscathed, Prey's Vengeance, and Virulent Swipe.  This might make sense in a Chimera / Pyromancer deck, but I sort of doubt it.

Honorable mentions go to: (1) Buyback.  It works, but there's nothing cheap enough for this to make sense; and (2) View From Above, which works fairly well with all the White heroic dudes but is a stinker of a card on its own.

EDIT2: Finished the podcast.  Well done, as always.  Booooo on totally misreading Heroic, though!  C'mon guys, get with it.

Answer to the podcast's question:  I think Swan Song will see the most Vintage play long term, and it's not really even close.  Swan Song joins the swelling ranks of very cheap conditional countermagic available when making your deck.  It's clearly playable.  In non-trivial cases, it is better that Flusterstorm, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Mental Misstep.  I predict that it will simply enter the rotation of countermagic used in Vintage, and will then wax and wane as the metagame requires.

Here's an interesting thought exercise, too.  What if Swan Song said "artifact" instead of "enchantment?"  My guess is then you would both be predicting 20+ top eight appearances.

[President Skroob]

EDIT: On the topic of Heroic -- since I can't listen to the podcast any more for awhile -- it might be helpful if you guys checked out the Mana Drain threads on new sets going into your review.  We went over some of the things that DO work with Heroic.  Spoiler alert:  They're all pretty stinky as far as Vintage goes.

First, you got your repeatable enchantments like Rancor + Auratog (lol), Flickering Ward, Mark of Fury, etc.  These are terrible cards on their own, so this is probably a non starter.  I could see some kind of janky Enchantress + Auratog + Parallax Tide thing being played for the LOLs.

Next, you got your Flashback cards.  Hunter makes Artful Dodge, Canopy Claws, Deadly Allure, Defy Gravity, Feeling of Dread, and Thrill of the Hunt into somewhat decent draw spells.  However, again, they are bad on their own.  The only ones that are interesting are Deadly Allure, which is not a terrible wrath effect, and maybe Thrill of the Hunt in a deck also featuring Cold-Eyed Selkie.  I dunno.  

Finally, you got your Rebound spells.  Distortion Strike reads "draw a card now, and draw a card next upkeep" for U, which is absurd.  It deals 6 damage to your opponent in the bargain, since your dork is swinging unblockably!  See also crappy cards: Emerge Unscathed, Prey's Vengeance, and Virulent Swipe.  This might make sense in a Chimera / Pyromancer deck, but I sort of doubt it.

Honorable mentions go to: (1) Buyback.  It works, but there's nothing cheap enough for this to make sense; and (2) View From Above, which works fairly well with all the White heroic dudes but is a stinker of a card on its own.

All of this and no mention of Cipher?

[MaximumCDawg]

There are no good cipher cards.  The cheapest, and closest to not awful is the 1U untapper, and even that is bad.

Theros is just a really clever set.  Powercreep is there, but in ways that eternal formats cannot possibly abuse, i.e. devotion, monstrosity, heroic.  Its like one big troll of the vintage community.

[President Skroob]

There are no good cipher cards.  The cheapest, and closest to not awful is the 1U untapper, and even that is bad.

Theros is just a really clever set.  Powercreep is there, but in ways that eternal formats cannot possibly abuse, i.e. devotion, monstrosity, heroic.  Its like one big troll of the vintage community.

Wait, that entire list from your previous post is a list of good cards...? :O

[MaximumCDawg]

Most of them turn ok with certain heroic triggers, but are just bad on their own.  (Buyback aside).  Cipher is even worse; overpriced and requires combat damage to use.

I mean, I get why you would reference cipher, but I had to stop somewhere.  I don't really consider Holy Strength to be much of a heroic enabler either.

[Smmenen]

It's been posted on MTGcast and ITunes. http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/many-insane-plays-29-theros

[Smmenen]

EDIT2: Finished the podcast.  Well done, as always.  Booooo on totally misreading Heroic, though!  C'mon guys, get with it.

yes, we did mis-read Heroic. 

As a general matter, though, I would point out that the mechanics in this set, and most especially Bestow, are likely to cause rules confusion.   Just look at the fact that  half-dozen pros and HOFers have a 66 reply Twitter exchange with Matt Tabak asking him to clarify just about every rule relating to it. And a lot of those questions were due to conflicting judge decisions when they played at the prerelease over the weekend.

What a mess.

Here's an interesting thought exercise, too.  What if Swan Song said "artifact" instead of "enchantment?"  My guess is then you would both be predicting 20+ top eight appearances.

I much less enthusiastic about Swan Song than other people.  I still wouldn't play it over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm unless it was in an Oath deck. That said, you are right that this is its key deficiency, as I mentioned in the podcast.

[Smmenen]

Someone on twitter pointed out that Hydra can also be used to trigger Bridges if played for 0.  We did not mention that possibility, but it is a fact worth bearing in mind. 

[MaximumCDawg]

While true, it hardly seems relevant.  Hydra is awful.  I remember thinking, during the podcast, "why are we talking about this chump?"  If you want an affordable jace killer, you got Skylasher.  If you want an expensive Jace killer, you got clique and notion thief.  Uncounterability has never been less relevant in a post-caverns world, and hydra is a stinker creature at any value of x.   Bad card is bad.

[Smmenen]

I'm nervous with such declarative and strong language.  I like the versatility of Hydra.  Since it's scalable, it has alot more situational utility.   Skylasher can't kill Jace in a single swing, and that makes space for Hydra.  Hydra also seems strong against Landstill.  Although I agree that Clique or Notion Thief are probably stronger.   Clique is actually VERY good in this Vintage metagame. 

[brianpk80]

While true, it hardly seems relevant.  Hydra is awful.  I remember thinking, during the podcast, "why are we talking about this chump?"  If you want an affordable jace killer, you got Skylasher.  If you want an expensive Jace killer, you got clique and notion thief.  Uncounterability has never been less relevant in a post-caverns world, and hydra is a stinker creature at any value of x.   Bad card is bad.

Uncounterable is still relevant because you don't always have your Cavern.  I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but the Hydra is definitely not "awful."  After playtesting half a dozen Theros cards this week, I wouldn't be surprised if the Hydra is the best card in the set aside from Swan Song.  Sadly though, this reflects on how awful everything else in Theros turned out to be, not to any great surprise.  The most dedicated Jace killer is Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch and the Hydra is comparable to her.  Being able to sink colorless mana into it from Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or God forbid Channel is relevant.  Some of the Humans lists playing Time Vault run full accel + Nobles + Academy and I've seen and experienced having 9-14 mana laying around as early as the third/fourth turn, hardcasting Tinker-bots, hardcasting Batterskull and Equipping it in the same turn, etc.  I think the Hydra merits testing. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Competitors to what Hydra is trying to do are probably Thrun, the Last Troll and Skylasher, most directly.  Is Hydra better than them?  

Plus:
+ Scalable
+ Hasty

Minus:
- Bad Cost/Power ratio at all costs
- Not disruptive in any way

I don't see the selling point here.  At best, Hydra seems like a variant of Thrun and Lasher the same way Swan Song is a variant of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm.  And no one plays Thrun or Lasher.

Brian, what kind of testing did you do?  Did you do the old "here's a blank card, what do I wish it was?" with cards including Hydra?  I'm interested to know the details of how you came to the conclusion Hydra was not awful -- or even more alarming -- Vintage playable.  I'm always happy to have underestimated a card, but I'm not convinced on this one at all.  Details?

EDIT: On the flip side, I'm much more bullish on Spellheart Chimera than Steve and Kevin are in the Podcast.  The casting cost is awkward for what is basically just an evasive dude, but I feel like he is being underestimated for the same reason Goyf was initially.  People think you gotta put work into making Spellheart big.  In standard, maybe.  In Vintage?  We toss out spells like they were going out of style.  Now, don't get me wrong, the potential upside on Chimera is lower than Goyf, but I think Chimera is simply a hyper-efficient beatstick that gets big on its own without doing any work.  It is dangerous, and worth keeping an eye on.

[brianpk80]

I don't see the selling point here.  At best, Hydra seems like a variant of Thrun and Lasher the same way Swan Song is a variant of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm.  And no one plays Thrun or Lasher.

The comparison is not so much to Skylasher as it is to Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch, a card that's clearly Vintage playable having appeared in multiple T8's and first place finishes (Australia, Lancaster).  On the "con" side, it lacks first strike, has a CMC of 5 rather than 4 to be 4/4, and is weaker against Explosives, Snuff Out, and Decay.  The pros are that it can then block (which Unleash prevents), 4G is usually as easy or easier than 2RB, it's uncounterable even when Cavern is hiding, can never be bounced with Jace or blocked by Snap/Vendilion/Trinket, siphons the life total much less with a Bob flip, and can scale up to enormous hasty game-ending proportions or scale down in an emergency.  One specific benefit is that the Landstill strategy of Jace-bouncing Exava and then Wasting the Cavern & countering or simply leaving you unable to cast her (for instance because Lotus was used) is not applicable to the Hydra. 

As for Thrun, I've seen him played in Vintage sideboards multiple times. 

As for "testing," it doesn't take dissertation level research to conclude that most of the Theros cards are too slow for Vintage.  The Heroic cards were occasionally really cool when they worked; ie, 20 damage from a Snapcaster-Mutagenic Growthed Double Exalted Fabled Hero but not conducive to a consistent great deck.  The Hydras on the other hand were played in the Exava slots in Humans for 8 or so matches against various decks and it was enough to see that they compare well to her and often even better. 

[brianpk80]

Finished the podcast.  Another good one overall.  Even though a lot of this set is unplayable, I think it's good to go through the reasons why cards that seem possible just won't make the cut.  From what I can tell, most of the cards identified for this analysis were of the right variety.  One thing about the Hydra though is that it isn't dead against Dredge at all as it removes all Bridges for  .   As for the question of whether there are any 2G spells played in Vintage aside from Krosan Grip, there is Green Sun's Zenith with X = 2, a fairly common setting.

Swan Song is playable in Oath without a doubt, but no other blue decks will want it because the Bird token can kill Jace w. evasion.

Daxos would be fringe playable at UW but doesn't make the cut at 1UW.  Too slow and unreliable.  His Human subtype doesn't immunize him from the embarrassing comparison to Geist of St. Traft at the same cost.  

That the set lacks the power variance which enabled so many recent cards to enter Vintage was a good observation. 

[MaximumCDawg]

That the set lacks the power variance which enabled so many recent cards to enter Vintage was a good observation. 

They're just being friggin' brilliant lately about making cards very interesting and powerful and yet dancing around ways to abuse them like a Russian Ballet.  I mean, look at Strionic Resonator, Sundial of the Infinite.  Look at the mechanics of this set.  Look at Heroic, which only goes off in the very narrow circumstance where 1) you 2) cast a spell 4) targeting it, rather than anyone's spells triggering it, or any targeting triggering it.  Look at Devotion and Monsterous, both of which let them print massively powerful creatures while being immune from Show and Tell / Oath of Druids hijinks. 

Wizards is just getting very good at avoiding combos.  Spectacular "failures," like Splinter-Twin, are few and far between.  They arn't looking at Vintage necessarily, but they're sure looking at Modern, and they're doing a bang up job of keeping the format from being any fun.

[brianpk80]

They're doing a bang up job of keeping the format from being any fun.

Exactly.  There are a lot of cards whose abilities err far too much on the side of prudence and caution for my liking.  For instance, Daxos of Meletis can not play a land if he reveals it.  Was it really necessary to water him down like that?  This is Homelands/Mirage style thinking. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Shhhh, Mirage was badass,  Don't mention it in the same class as homelands!

[brianpk80]

Shhhh, Mirage was badass,  Don't mention it in the same class as homelands!

Absolutely not; it was abysmal except for a few cards that were intended to be weak but turned out to be strong due to the power level of preexisting cards (ie Mystical Tutor) or were later broken (Dreadnaught, LeD).  There was an enchantment called Simplicity intended to cost 1G or 1W with the text of Meddling Mage in Mirage and when it went through the design process, it became Bazaar of Wonders.  That's Homelands mentality.  "Add 3 to the casting cost and increase its color weight so that it doesn't 'break' the game."  Too conservative.   

[MaximumCDawg]

Oh man, it's on.
CHALLENGE LEVEL: AVOID THREAD DERAIL.

Okay, so Mirage is a good set, and it's a good counter-example to Theros.  I don't have the level of specific historical research into this that Steve does, but I lived it, goddammit.  Originally Magic had the Wild and Wooly expansions, basically Alpha - Legends.  People were trying to figure out what they were doing.  Set design was horrible from a modern design standpoint.  Power level varied from Library of Alexandria all the way down to Blazing Effigy and Glyph of No One Plays Walls.  We got broken stuff because the designers didn't understand how the game was going to be played as a practical matter.

Then, the backlash.  The Dark was a fun and flavorful set, and had some of my favorite art from when I played back in the day, but the power level was way, way down.  Things went further down the toilet with Fallen Empires and Homelands.  The worst part of these sets was that the variance was really still there, they just cut off the top end.  Delif's Cone?  Seriously?  A few notable mistakes still slipped through (Merchant Scroll, Hymn to Torach) but for the most part the best you could do out of these sets was the first large shroudy creature in Autumn Willow.  Yay.  

Ice Age was only marginally better.  With Ice Age, they relaxed a little bit on the power top end and printed some gems like Necropotence and Jester's Cap.  They also got creative again in way they hadn't been since Legends, printing oddballs like Ice Cauldron.  Still, the variance was enormous, and you had so, so many garbage cards (looking at you, Bone Shaman).  Alliances was much, much better.  Alliances, for me, was a set with many weak cards, but no truly bad cards -- even the weak ones were interesting.  

Finally, enter Mirage.  Wizards finally got the formula right.  The variance is reduced.  They print solid creatures at all rarities.  Limited is possible and not miserable.  They experiment with the top end in ways that are hard to abuse.  For example, Lion's Eye Diamond and Phyrexian Dreadnought.  These cards were crap when printed because there was no really good way to abuse em, and Wizards knew it.  

They're not afraid of powerful or interesting effects, though.  The following are all from Mirage: Cadaverous Bloom, Celestial Dawn, the Diamonds, Crystal Vein, Dissipate, the Tutors, Final Fortune, Flash, Forbidden Crypt, Frenetic Efreet, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Soothsayer, the cheapest cycle of Guildmages, Grinning Totem, Hammer of Bogerdan, Illumination, Jolrael's Centaur, Kaervek's Torch, Lure of Prey, Maro, Mind Harness, Natural Balance, Phyrexian Purge, Phyrexian Tribute, Phyrexian Vault, Political Trickery, Polymorph, Sacred Mesa, Seeds of Innocence, Shallow Grave, Telim'Tor's Edict, Tombstone Stairwell, Tropical Storm, Zirilan of the Claw, etc.   Now, yes, I know not all of these cards are Vintage all-stars.  But look at the different kind of things Mirage is doing!  Swap your library and graveyard? Turn everything everywhere White?? White and Black counterspells??? Putting creatures into play using a spell?!?!  The first real engine combo deck emerged in Prosbloom, for Pete's sake!  

Powerful!  Interesting!  And absolutely balanced at the time.  

This was balance done right.  There were very powerful cards and effects, but they were kept in check because the tools to abuse them did not exist.  Without Stifle, Dreadnought was not great.  (I don't even think it worked with Illusionary Mask at the time.)  Without Grislebrand, Shallow Grave was no big deal.  Worst thing you could do with Zirilan was pop in a Nicol Bolas, which was bad, but tolerable.  The set was fun to play, fun to buy, fun all around.

Compare that to Theros.  Theros is also balanced.  From what I hear, it also has a fun Limited environment.  Like Mirage, it carefully avoids the wild missteps of Legends etc and also avoids cutting off the high end the way that Homelands etc did.  Unlike Mirage, however, Theros is a balance that comes from sterility.  We don't have a series of innovative and interesting ideas all with one card apiece to manipulate.  We have rigid cycles with specific keywords balanced once and then applied mechanically to each card so they're all similar.  Like Mirage, we avoid combos.  Unlike Mirage, it seems like they tried to avoid combos not just with what exists, but even what they are likely to print in the future.  Heroic, Monstrous, and Devotion seem like they will be absurdly difficult to really break in the future.  The best I can see in the whole set in this regard is Prophet of Kruxis or maybe the flying Goyf.

So, no, Mirage was not an "abysmal" set.  It was a perfect example of what Theros is not.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Okay, so Mirage is a good set...

(slow clap)

[Greg]

That was beautiful, MaximumCDawg. Thank you.

[Smmenen]

I don't have the level of specific historical research into this that Steve does, but I lived it, goddammit.  

Folks interested in that question should read or re-read Chapter 4 of my History of Vintage series.  Mirage was extremely powerful.  Flash, Mystical Tutor, LED, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, Enlightened Tutor, etc.  Mirage is a bit like Mercadian Masques -- extremely underestimated for what it contributed.   Mercadian Masques and Mirage are among the most important sets for Type I of all time, but don't enjoy that reputation.

[MaximumCDawg]

Mercadian Masques and Mirage are among the most important sets for Type I of all time, but don't enjoy that reputation.

They do with me!

I loved Mirage for the reasons I listed above.  In your podcast, Steve, you mention that Mirage was actually one of the originally planned sets that Richard Garfield had in mind when he released ABU.  Do you know how many of the cards were in his original file?  Like, did he have a specific plan for wacky cards like Tombstone Stairwell and so forth when he was designing the game?

As for Masques, I was not playing at the time it was released.  (Quit during Urzas, came back during Alara.)  However, when I got back into the game, I started combing the Gatherer for affordable cards to build on from what I had missed.  Using only my 1990s knowledge, one of the things I searched for was anything with the phrase "instead of paying the casting cost."  Lo and behold, I found a ton of those kind of cards in Masques and Kamigawa, and ordered em all for dimes.  My first impression of Masques, therefore, was that it was very good.  It was only later, as I started reading forums and reading the spoilers, did I see that the general impression was the opposite.  

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm an example of someone who approached Masques totally tablua rosa, with the specific intention of looking for Vintage playable cards, and I liked what I saw.

[brianpk80]

Mirage was more innovative than Theros but it was not what we would consider a good set taken as a whole.  Despite the fact that a few cards accidentally became format staples (with Mystical Tutor and LED being the only remaining two), the design philosophy was to weaken the cards as originally conceptualized in an overly paternal process designed to prevent abuse.  I remember reading articles in that time period about how cards like Simplicity mentioned earlier were watered down to the point of unplayability.  This was the norm for the development of all the cards in that expansion which was disappointing.  Mirage was an enormous set (350) and most of it was embarrassingly overcosted.  That is not what we like in Vintage.  With Visions, Wizards finally began to relent with their prudish design approach and trended towards Urza's Block, which then scared them back into designing sets like Prophecy.  My take on 2013 is that design feels Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage were big mistakes; Cavern of Souls was an overpowered intervention to offset blue dominance; and now they're scared again, hence the watering down of this year's expansions' power levels.  Homelands/Mirage mentality in design refers to taking a card concept and heavily increasing its casting cost, reducing its capabilities and breadth, and then shipping it out.  This is exactly what happens behind the scenes in a world where the expected rate of return for 3W is giving +1/+1 and lifelink to a creature.  I find Mirage and Theros very comparable, except I will agree that Mirage was less boring.   

[Smmenen]

Brian, I suggest you re-read the section on Mirage in my HoV Chapter

I re-read it myself when I saw this tangent discussion.  This is a very complicated discussion, but I think you are probably underestimating Mirage a bit.  I characterized Mirage as one of the most impactful sets ever in the history of this format.  

One of the things that is very different about Mirage is that during Mirage, Wizards designers were still in a mode of trying to print "fixed" versions of broken cards.   As I mentioned in my HoV chapter, Crystalline Mox was designed for Mirage, but never made it in (it still could be printed though).  Cards like Diminishing Returns, LED, etc characterize these attempts.

But because Mirage had that design mode, it offered lots of potential for Type I.   The entire cycle of Mirage Tutors are HUGELY impactful, not just Mystical.  Phyrexian Dreadnaught and Flash are also huge for both Type I and Vintage.  Dreadnaught was a key deck in this format's history and many other formats, for that matter.  

Different sets matter for Vintage for different reasons.   The reason Mercadian Masques is so broken is because it's only the third set with alternative casting cost spells, and the first to go whole hog on it with 19 different spells, half of which have seen play in this format (Gush, Snuff Out, Misdirection, etc).  

It's hard to characterize an entire set when specific design quirks make a set relevant.  I think you are definitely not giving enough credit to Mirage.  

I think Theros's chief error is the one I identified at the end of this podcast: it's power level is actually above average for most magic sets (it's not Homelands or Prophesy), but it is extremely balanced compared to most sets.  As you characterized my description: "That the set lacks the power variance which enabled so many recent cards to enter Vintage was a good observation. "

If Theros had arrived 10 years ago, it would have been ridiculously good.  But Jackel Pup doesn't get any attention these days.  Let alone Savannah Lions or a better Sarcomancy/Carnophage.  

I think Theros is an awful set from a design perspective for reasons that go beyond the set's power level.   It's mechanics are horribly complicated and confusing to most players, the cards themselves are overly complex, and the set is inelegant.  Then again, I prefer designer sets rather than top down design, with M10 being the exception.

Theros is probably one of the worst sets for Vintage since Prophesy, but I think Mirage is a poor comparison.  Zendikar would be much closer if it was stripped of enemy fetchlands (although it still has cards like Lotus Cobra and Bloodghast).

From a strictly power level perspective, perhaps the best comparison would be Invasion.  Invasion was an extremely balanced set that had almost no impact on this format outside of1 card, and today, with Fact being useless, has zero impact.  

If you want to talk about being self-consciously watered down, that's exactly what Invasion did.   Earlier sets did it because of ignorance, not design.  Invasion was heavily tested and tuned, and so you end up with a very balanced set that is not very powerful for older formats.

Theros is a less elegant Invasion.  

Perhaps its fitting that we get a new Fact variant for a set that will have a similar influence to Invasion.  

[brianpk80]

I'm mostly in accordance.  I did live through Mirage so the experience with the set is firsthand.  I remember it as a lackluster collection of overcosted and mostly useless cards that was disappointing coming on the heels of Alliances, which reignited hope in the player base that Wizards was ready to print "good" cards again.  The chase cards upon release were Grinning Totem and Hammer of Bogarden.  Enlightened Tutor I consider fringe; Worldly Tutor is not played; and the best tutor of the cycle, Vampiric Tutor, was part of Visions, not Mirage.  It's clear that nothing in Theros will leave its mark on Vintage the way Mystical Tutor or Lion's Eye Diamond have, though I can't help but see them as accidental byproducts of an attempt to create underpowered overly "balanced" cards, as opposed to the more audacious design philosophy that gave us Mirrodin and other cherished sets.  Theros indicates they've gotten better at the paternalistic design approach so as we both see, nothing has slipped through the cracks.  Unfortunately for us, this means nothing will enter the format that will shape it in an enduring or meaningful way.  This is particularly disappointing because of the high hopes generated by the change in the legend rule, early promising remarks on the dual land cycle, and the ambitiousness of the theme itself, capturing the majesty and grandeur of a pantheon of deities.  We would expect something better than 5 casting cost Holy Strengths.