[COMM] Toxic Deluge

[Phele]

Toxic Deluge   2B

Sorcery    Rare

As an additional cost to cast Toxic Deluge, pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/commander-2013-spoiler.html

What do you think about this variant of Fire Covenant/Mutilate/Infest? It is easier splashable than Infest and scalable for a lower life investment thant Covenant.

I know, that you can do more broken thinks for three mana but at least it seams to be solid utility.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, it kills True Name Nemesis!

Honestly, 3 mana for a sweeper that ignores all protective abilities is pretty great for legacy.   In vintage..?  I don't think hexproof/indestructible/regen is enough of a thing for this to matter at the moment.

[wiley]

It is a wrath of god in a better color.  If pyro-gro and fish get too far out of hand this would definitely see play in sideboards.  It is better than e plague since it can kill everything.

And for 11 life (and not losing the game) it can still kill that tinkered blightsteel.

[CHA1N5]

Is there a creature in Vintage that this doesn't kill?

Naturally, it's only a temporary measure against Dredge, like Pyroclasm, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a creature that this doesn't address.

[bactgudz]

Is there a creature in Vintage that this doesn't kill?

Naturally, it's only a temporary measure against Dredge, like Pyroclasm, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a creature that this doesn't address.

played currently in vintage? no; but it doesn't address something like Aetherling

[AmbivalentDuck]

Is there a creature in Vintage that this doesn't kill?

Gris? BSC? Sundering Titan? It can kill them, but only at tremendous cost, and only if your life total remains high.

[nedleeds]

My desire to play Death's Shadow grows and grows.

[Random Noob]

My desire to play Death's Shadow grows and grows.

This! and at least it goes into the Casual Version of my Sui. Going to get 4, techy SB is techy.

[quicksilvervii]

I'm not sure this is better than supreme verdict TBH.  Paying life is part of the cost, so if any aggro deck with counters comes your way you could potentially have a really bad time.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm not sure this is better than supreme verdict TBH.  Paying life is part of the cost, so if any aggro deck with counters comes your way you could potentially have a really bad time.

That 1UWW casting cost is nasty, though. Getting WW is no small thing.

[Blue Lotus]

I do like flexible in my removal. This is an above average sweeper which can also answer any tinker creature.

The issue I see is you are punished harder when people play around this card. 3 mana and x life to kill a goyf, for example, could limit this card's playability.

[fsecco]

The right comparison here would not be Supreme Verdict, but Damnation. And I think this is much, much better.

Given the right circumstances/meta, this would be better than Pyroclasm also.

[Nefarias]

I really like this card. While the "additonal cost" thing is unfortunate, it's totally worth it.

This is clearly a sideboard effect, so the fact that it costs a ton (and possibly too much) life to kill a TinkerBot or Oath creature is largely irrelevant. You're not going to board this in against those decks anyway. Rather, the fact that this can sometimes kill those is a nice little side effect that makes this something that you can sometimes maindeck and never be completely dead (as opposed to say, a Pyroclasm).

And even though he isn't all that common right now, I really want my anti-creature sideboard cards to be able to kill a Gaddock Teeg.

[Protoaddict]

I could see this being a main deck effect. As was mentioned deaths shadow is a card and I do believe there have been somewhat successful mono black decks that have run him in the past.

Crossing my fingers that this winds up being good.

[brianpk80]

This is a very good card.  Having the discretion to amp up the X to hit things like Trygons, Salvagers, Angels, and in a pinch Tinker bots or Shop demons gives a lot of latitude to swing games in one's favor.  I expect to see it in Vintage at some point. 

[cvarosky80]

This is a very good card.  Having the discretion to amp up the X to hit things like Trygons, Salvagers, Angels, and in a pinch Tinker bots or Shop demons gives a lot of latitude to swing games in one's favor.  I expect to see it in Vintage at some point. 

I agree with this. For the mana cost of Perish/Virtue's Ruin (Both of which have seen Vintage play for a long time in decks that did not splash Red for Pyroclasm) and, essentially, the life-loss total of Dismember (Which has also seen plenty of Vintage play), this card is a Pyroclasm that works against Workshop decks. Now, granted, the life loss associated with this card doesn't have the Phyrexian mana benefit that Dismember provides (Meaning you still have to pay 3 mana to use this card regardless), but, the fact that no matter how many Lodestone Golems, Steel Hellkites, or Forgemasters are on the field, this card will wipe them all out at once, ALONG with their annoying Phyrexian Revoker counterparts makes this card an incredible weapon as it's still equally useful against the Aggro decks, unlike Pyroclasm, which is virtually useless against Workshop decks.

[xouman]

Well, from my perspective Toxic Deluge is a real card, probably the better from commander 13 new cards from a vintage perspective. Since I usually play lots of creatures, I'm somewhat concerned. So I'd like to read your opinions on these:

1-Would TD be a common staple in sideboards, or even main decks?

2-Which decks would play it (since confidant decks don't like TD, I suppose)?

3-How to combat it?


my answers would be:

1-Yes! I would expect about 1-2 players featuring it in a 5/6 rounds tournament.

2-Any blue-black combish deck (Drain tendrils, any long, even tezz). Some confidant decks would play it in the sb.

3-Counterspells? discard? meddling mage? magus of the moon to shut black mana? Is there a reliable way to survive -x/-x counters?

Thanks in advance for your comments

[Oath of Happy]

This is an auto include as at least a one-of in every blue control deck's SB and a 4-of add to every Vintage player's collection.

[zeus-online]

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[MaximumCDawg]

I agree to a point.  From playtesting, and from my experience with The Gate in Legacy, once you start relying on life as a resource for too many angles of you deck, you start to run into deckbuilding constraints.  You cannot safely rely on deluge for removal, thoughtseize for disruption, bitterblossom for aggro, and bob for card advantage all in the same deck.  This is particularly true in a creature meta.

None of that suggests deluge is not going to be played - it is amazing - but you need to be mindful of other cards in the deck.  You might not run it with bob.  Or you might want nighthawk or jitte to offset the life loss.  That kind of thing.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

This is an auto include as at least a one-of in every blue control deck's SB and a 4-of add to every Vintage player's collection.

I disagree that its an auto include. I don't like how it interacts with Dark confidant (both do damage to you, and Toxic deluge kills your confidant)

But i do agree that it's a valuable addition to control decks.

It also keeps you from losing the game at low live with bob out for  and one life, so it still can be fine there. This card is definitely the real deal. I've often wished damnation would some how cost one less or that perish hit any other additional color. With the BoM and champs results a wrath on color with demon and will seems like something that should be in a lot of 75's, and maybe even 60's.

[zeus-online]

.

[Bibendum]

This is an auto include as at least a one-of in every blue control deck's SB and a 4-of add to every Vintage player's collection.

I disagree that its an auto include. I don't like how it interacts with Dark confidant (both do damage to you, and Toxic deluge kills your confidant)

But i do agree that it's a valuable addition to control decks.

It also keeps you from losing the game at low live with bob out for  and one life, so it still can be fine there. This card is definitely the real deal. I've often wished damnation would some how cost one less or that perish hit any other additional color. With the BoM and champs results a wrath on color with demon and will seems like something that should be in a lot of 75's, and maybe even 60's.

I wonder, is it better than balance? At controlling creature decks, that is.

I think the fact that it doesn't cost white makes it instantly better and in most cases the control player will have more cards in hand then the aggro player makes this the better call.