VINTAGE on Magic Online is announced!!!

[Klep]

Those $7 Tangle Wires are finite. They're creeping up as people realize that they can get those over the $24 version.

I just got mine for about $8, so they are climbing.  If you don't have them, now is the time to get them. Look for them on bots selling foils.

[Twiedel]

Hey guys,

so, I was in some mood for number crunching today, and made some calculations (a) and some additional estimations (b) of the value of Power on MTGO. I don't want to recite all my calc, as this would not be very interesting for most of you, but know that I basically tried to compile a list of the most valueable cards in Vintage Masters, their market value (a) and their expected values when the drafts are running for about 2-3 weeks (b). I didn't calculate foils into any equation, as the chances of getting a SINGLE Foil P9 piece for instance are around 1 : 750 packs, and I had no idea how to evaluate them. I'd say they won't make a big difference, in the big picture. So let's go:

When we are using the current value of the interesting mythics and rares, we get to (a):

Black Lotus 225
Ancestral Recall 150
Time Walk 150
Moxes 125
Timetwister 50

Set:. 1250

Of course, Master's Editions have taught us that most prices are going down considerably, as long as there are players willing to just dump the cards as fast as possible and continue drafting. I tried to set the values used for calculation to the ones I could find and/or guess for when Master's Edition drafts were running. I came to the following figures (b):

Black Lotus 375
Ancestral Recall 300
Time Walk 250
Moxes 200
Timetwister 125

Set: 2050

Of course, in this scenario also the Power cards will be dumped to a certain extent, but this was a bit too much guessing for my taste. What I think we can take away from here:

- a set cost of around 1200 or lower seems like a good deal.
- a set cost of around 2000 or more is at least questionable.

If anyone is interested in my calculation or has done somethign similar and cam to other conclusions (or maybe even close ones) please let me know. I just thought this might be helpful to anyone interested in the possible price range of the P9.

Greetings from Germany,
Marc

[KrauserKrauser]

If they are going to be selling the packs until October, I would think events would remain until then.

That would be three and a half months of drafts, not just a couple weeks.

True, it would taper off quickly, but it's still a good amount of time for it to enter the system. (Though likely still too short to bring power prices down to a very reasonable level)

[gkraigher]

3 1/2 months is too short a time.  That is how long all the Master's Edition cards were out there, and that was too short. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

When we are using the current value of the interesting mythics and rares, we get to (a):

Black Lotus 225
Ancestral Recall 150
Time Walk 150
Moxes 125
Timetwister 50

Set:. 1250

$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) = $212 each on average IF THE REST OF THE SET IS WORTHLESS.

Now let's be conservative and assume that the average mythics and rares are $1. You can just subtract that off as the expected value of the packs that didn't contain a Special:

$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) - $1/rare * (52 rares/1 special) = $160.

Let's say you think the average mythic is $5:
$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) - $1/rare * (46 rares/1 special) - $5/mythic * (6 mythics/1 special) = $130.

It bears mentioning that if Mox Sapphire is twice as rare as Force of Will, Force of Will can still cost twice as much. People want 4 FoW, but only 1 Mox Sapphire. I honestly think power floods the market in order to get enough copies of Drain/FoW/Dack. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Dack costs more than Timetwister.

[Twiedel]

@ the duck
That post doesn't help at all. It seems to me like you see my numbers, you don't like them, make up some random calculation in 2 minutes and make a statement that is doesn't tell us anything... would have taken you 30 seconds to find out that packs are not costing 4$ by the way.
As I don't want to derail this thread, if you're feeling bad about me now please let's solve this via PM.

@ topic
I don't think that Power will be flooding the market in numbers that are sufficient to drive the price down significantly below 1500 / set. (Would be great if I'm wrong ) And if those packs are not available after 3 ½ months, it is only getting worse. When I was writing about 2-3 weeks I meant that it will probably take that long till the cards of high value which are reprinted in Vintage Masters have settled to a new price (that will be kept up until VM is discontinued, then will rise again over time, of course).

[KrauserKrauser]

$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) = $212 each on average IF THE REST OF THE SET IS WORTHLESS.

Now let's be conservative and assume that the average mythics and rares are $1. You can just subtract that off as the expected value of the packs that didn't contain a Special:

$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) - $1/rare * (52 rares/1 special) = $160.

Let's say you think the average mythic is $5:
$4/pack * (53 packs/1 special) - $1/rare * (46 rares/1 special) - $5/mythic * (6 mythics/1 special) = $130.

It bears mentioning that if Mox Sapphire is twice as rare as Force of Will, Force of Will can still cost twice as much. People want 4 FoW, but only 1 Mox Sapphire. I honestly think power floods the market in order to get enough copies of Drain/FoW/Dack. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Dack costs more than Timetwister.

I thought Vintage Masters packs are $8/pack

[IndependentGeorge]

VM is $6.99 a pack. I have a hard time seeing P9 holding that kind of value. I completely agree that we could see $1000-$1500 for a set during the initial week or two.  There is some validity to Ducks argument because people and bots would just start buying VM packs and turning a profit by doing nothing but opening them. If that's the case the market will flood and lower the price.

[Zherbus]

I guess I'd like to know how you're higher on your guesswork than most other guesses by about triple.

[dangerlinto]

<snipped>

Black Lotus 225
Ancestral Recall 150
Time Walk 150
Moxes 125
Timetwister 50

Set:. 1250

Black Lotus 375
Ancestral Recall 300
Time Walk 250
Moxes 200
Timetwister 125

Set: 2050

...

Greetings from Germany,
Marc

Neither of these calculations really take the Motus Operandi of every single set ever online - that is the value of ALL the cards in the set can't equal (or even be close to equal) to the *effective* costs of the packs

Now, it's true - VMA packs cost $6.99.  But that is generally not the effective cost of the packs. That is because the vast majority of the way packs are opened are in draft.  And the quick calculation* for that shows that in an average draft which costs $200 (24 packs + 32 event tickets) that 35 packs are opened (because the draft pays out 11 prize packs, which are either opened or used in the next draft, which in either case contributes). Which means the effect price for a pack of VMA is $5.71

It would take 477 packs (9 * 53) on average to open up one of each power.  That would be an effective cost of $2725.  Of course, if you open up 477 packs, you also have 60 (2x of each) mythics and very close to a full set of every rare in the set.  Let's ignore almsot every other card, and use some very conservative estimate on the value of the cards there

Mythics
2x Mishra's Workshop $20
2x Mana Drain $24
2x Bazaar of Baghdad $14
2x Mana Crypt $15

$146 for just these Mythics

Rares
4x Force of Will $20
16x Blue Duals $15
24x Non-blue Duals $8

$512 for just these rares

That means the Power now can't be worth more than $2067 - which is very close to the second estimate.  Of course, that's only possible if every other card in the set is completely worthless, which seems ridiculously unlikely.  While I'm sure Skullclamp and Upheaval are the worst mythics to ever crack (monetarily), the other 25 are not total chumps.  Nor are many of the various other rares.  at this point though, I'm going to call it quits on the detail math and just give another round number of $4 to every mythic (52) and $1.5 to every remaining rare (373) leaving ~1300 for the price of power - which is really close to your first estimate.  

Don't forget, value of those rares and mtyhics will be much higher on release too.  Mana Crypt, for example, is right now a $30 card.  So even though Power will be pricey right away, so to will a lot of the rares and mythics.

And that's just the dead-even value.  History has taught us that dead-even value is impossible to maintain, because in the world of MTGO economics, there are winners and there are losers, and they are not equal.  This means the winners get more of the cards and are then forced to sell to keep winning, which puts more downward pressure on the prices of in-print cards.

In the end, 477 packs is not too much to get a set of power, price-wise, in this set.  

[AmbivalentDuck]

@ the duck
That post doesn't help at all. It seems to me like you see my numbers, you don't like them, make up some random calculation in 2 minutes and make a statement that is doesn't tell us anything... would have taken you 30 seconds to find out that packs are not costing 4$ by the way.

Substitute $8, though if I understand correctly, tix aren't quite dollars. The math holds for a perfect liquid market (and MtGO more or less is since you can buy packs on a whim in any quantity for a fixed cost). Prices can't exceed some ceiling for long until people crack packs and bring the price back down.

Expected value of a pack <= price per pack
Sum(expected value of a rarity * expected quantity of a rarity) <= price per pack

I'm just multiplying the whole thing by 53 since WotC has stated that that's the frequency of "special" rarity: one in 53 packs.

[Twiedel]

@Zherbus
I for my part did exactly what dangerlinto did, just with more card pricesfor all relevant cards in my (a) example, and with (guessed) corrected values for those cards after being available through draft a lot more than currently (roundabout a 50% drop for most of the high runners). This brought me to estimate (b). The truth should be somwhere in between these numbers, in my opinion. If you need any more clarification because I cannot express myself in an understandable way in English, let me know ^^

[Zherbus]

I'll let Danger do all my MTGO statistical speaking for me. He understands the way the economy and program works much better than I do.

Have you taken in to account Market Demand?

For example: Abyssal Persecutor versus Jace, the Mindsculptor holding different value, but they're numbers being even at Worldwake launch.

Better example: Master's Edition II (at the time) blue duals, which are a multiple inclusion over a variety of formats, went for $15-20 and Mana Crypt, which is a restricted card in one format, sold for about $4.

There's only so much history and economics can tell us, but what it tells many is that P9 will be much more affordable than I think you estimate. And all I can speculate on is that there are going to be a ton of people opening VMA packs (mostly by drafting) who will not be playing Vintage at all.

[dangerlinto]

Zherb has it.

There is very little historical precedent on MTGO for something like VMA - every other set is differnet in some way, and the whole "special rarity" looks way worse than it is. I think people get hung up on the idea that 1 in 53 is a crazy amount of packs for something to show up, when really, it's EXACTLY the same amount of packs you need to get a playset of mythics from a standard large set.  (Quick math - 15 mythics * 8 packs per mythic * 4 for playset = 480 packs)

People tend to forget that you need just one power.  It is very, very hard to sell restricted cards in print at regular rarities, something I discussed 5 years ago with Forsythe and some other WoTC folk.  Just watch how the price of Vampiric Tutor crumbles while it's in print.  As Zherb said Crypt was super-cheap and especially Imperial Seal was under $2 while they were in print in MED2.  MED4 restricted rares were almost all super cheap.   It's good that they are making most of them mythic, as they won't totally flood the market.

Add as Zherb mentioned - there are several groups who will be buying into this set who have no need for Power.  Not just the Legacy folks, but the Commander group online is very sizable (so much so that Demonic Tutor and Mana Vault are worth much more than every other restricted rare in MED4) and neither of them have any use for power.  


It's easy to get caught up in the hype of Power and the special rarity, but really, it's not that bad.   I'm sure in the first weekend the flurry of crazy prices will get tossed around, but every other draft will be producing a P9 and it won't take long, IMHO, for that to settle down to prices substantially less.  If a full set of Power cost $1000 2 weeks after the release, I'll eat a hat.

[Smmenen]

I'm hope Tweidel's numbers are wrong, as I think that would make Vintage largely inaccessible online.  Few players will spend $1500+ just for power nine to play online, I fear. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm hope Tweidel's numbers are wrong, as I think that would make Vintage largely inaccessible online.  Few players will spend $1500+ just for power nine to play online, I fear.

I'm happy to bet that Black Lotus is under Force of Will within six months.

[MTGFan]

I'd be more excited about sinking $2000+ of my money into digital cards if the actual platform was a significant improvement, functionally speaking, over the already existent free-to-play magic testing software I use (cockatrice).

Of course MTGO has support for rules checking, but this actually isn't as much of a boon if the people you playtest with understand the rules - then constantly clicking "OK" on MTGO's phase changes becomes tiresome when instead, with player-enforced rules, you can speed through unnecessary steps, confident in both players' knowledge of the game rules.

MTGO's tournament support is nice, but grinding Dailies is really not that much more interesting than simply playtesting in preparation for real 50+ person events in person.

And technically speaking, the MTGO software is a steaming pile. For something created by paid programmers (I assume they are paying these people, right?) it is laughably unprofessional. Cockatrice isn't the most sterling example of modern UI design, but it is about as functional, and in some ways more functional, than the current MTGO incarnation - and programmed entirely in a single German guy's free time. Bluntly put, the current state of Wizard's flagship digital Magic product is a disgrace to program design and development everywhere.

I mean, before I spend hundreds or even thousands of my money on a product, I'd like to see some semblance of a dedicated, professional design investment in said product. The way Wizards treats MTGO development does not make me want to encourage their sloppy efforts with my business.

[fsecco]

I always think how Forge, open source and with rules enforcement, is easier to play than MTGO. There are a lot of rule bugs, etc, but man, if MTGO was anything like that...

[Zherbus]

If I could compete with people where something monetarily is on the line, while rules are enforced, and provide me invested opponents at any time of the day, I definitely would still be playing free ccg programs for games. I've done my share of that historically, probably longer than most of you and maybe longer than some of you have been able to read.

The signal to noise ratio in terms of matches has always been shit. This has been true since the last quarter of the 90s before Apprentice (I forget the name of the thing we used back in 1998ish), on Apprentice, Magic Workstation, and Cockatrice. In fact, for a time on this site, we had a thread that was stickied comprised of the bull shit people ran into online. Because it was funny and stupid. And we love recapping funny and stupid.

When MWS was popular, I had all the cool images and it was useful for my team to test. Beyond that, even some known Vintage players I'd get random matches in against were dicks (I used a different name). Seriously, some of you are fucking jerks to who you thought were randoms especially when you lost. Mostly, though, people played poorly, or at least loosely. Even that was okay, they at least played real decks and I got some valuable information about it. But the biggest bucket of NOPE was the random matches you'd get paired with. People who clearly had no investment into the game, the program, or the format. And they were everywhere.

MTGO, for what it is and how long it's been in development, is pretty disappointing. There's nobody out there that's going to stand up and say that Magic Online is a paragon of software excellence. I understand peoples hang ups on getting used to it. The current version is v3, I liked v2 better and it sucked getting used to v3. The next client is out now and I'm having some troubles with getting used to that as well.

At least on playtesting is usually with higher quality opponents, since they do have tiered 'casual' rooms. Tournament Practice has, go figure, people who are playtesting for tournaments. People can only be so rude on the client since you be reported for calling someone a stream of childish insults. Being used to the interface allows for me to casually click through my phases or use shortcut keys (f4 is my best friend), which generally makes games smooth to me.

The best thing is that I've sold out of MTGO twice now. Always for more than I put into it. Prizes from events and being apprised of the market values, much like your paper collections, are real things once they deposit via paypal into your bank account. These prizes are a big part of what makes MTGO. Going infinite in drafts (which normally is not relevant to Vintage players, but given the VMA set...) means you're building your accounts worth. Playing in daily events and premier events (minimum of 64 players), as long as you don't scrub out, means more profit. And finally, playing enough that you get the promo rewards, in particular the MOCS rewards, means extra capital.

Finally, those free apps are good for testing. We've established that. But testing for what? I used to live in an area with plenty of Vintage options every week/month. In many areas in the US, and especially as many of us in the Vintage community have aged, being able to regularly attend events is a very hard endeavor or just plain impossible. That harsh reality set in for me when a 10 hour round trip to an event the next state over had me needing to actually win the event just to pay for the trip. Circle jerking on Cockatrice or whatever with no 'real 50+ person events in person' within a 700 mile range serves no purpose.

Have a family, in your late twenties/thirties with a finite amount of income, but sitting on $20,000 worth of cards and a need for a new car or have a house mortgage. Shit gets re-evaluated real fast.

tl;dr - I wish I still lived 20 minutes from Vintage venues and had my shit still, but this is the best that many of us can get. And it's not all bad.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If I could compete with people where something monetarily is on the line, while rules are enforced, and provide me invested opponents at any time of the day, I definitely would still be playing free ccg programs for games.

That harsh reality set in for me when a 10 hour round trip to an event the next state over had me needing to actually win the event just to pay for the trip.

It's not that hard to have online tourneys or even rankings via Cockatrice.

[MTGFan]

If I could compete with people where something monetarily is on the line, while rules are enforced, and provide me invested opponents at any time of the day, I definitely would still be playing free ccg programs for games. I've done my share of that historically, probably longer than most of you and maybe longer than some of you have been able to read.

The signal to noise ratio in terms of matches has always been shit. This has been true since the last quarter of the 90s before Apprentice (I forget the name of the thing we used back in 1998ish), on Apprentice, Magic Workstation, and Cockatrice. In fact, for a time on this site, we had a thread that was stickied comprised of the bull shit people ran into online. Because it was funny and stupid. And we love recapping funny and stupid.

I've run into my fair share of bs on every Magic platform I've used - whether that's been MWS, Cockatrice, or MTGO. People are dicks online; decorum is simply a casualty of the proliferation of anonymous, faceless interaction.

When MWS was popular, I had all the cool images and it was useful for my team to test. Beyond that, even some known Vintage players I'd get random matches in against were dicks (I used a different name). Seriously, some of you are fucking jerks to who you thought were randoms especially when you lost. Mostly, though, people played poorly, or at least loosely. Even that was okay, they at least played real decks and I got some valuable information about it. But the biggest bucket of NOPE was the random matches you'd get paired with. People who clearly had no investment into the game, the program, or the format. And they were everywhere.

I find that Cockatrice helps mitigate the percentage of "randoms" via the inclusion of "registered players" and the friends list. I set my Cockatrice games to accept only registered players (helps filter out people who don't take the time to register a unique account on the cockatrice website), and I usually try to limit myself to players that I've already played against, have verified to be competent, and have added to my "friends list" which manages opponents' accounts on your screen.

Honestly, as long as I stick to eternal formats, registered users, and show preference for verified accounts via the friend list, my percentage of incompetent opponents is actually very low.

MTGO, for what it is and how long it's been in development, is pretty disappointing. There's nobody out there that's going to stand up and say that Magic Online is a paragon of software excellence. I understand peoples hang ups on getting used to it. The current version is v3, I liked v2 better and it sucked getting used to v3. The next client is out now and I'm having some troubles with getting used to that as well.

The problem is simply that Wizards does not want to invest money in a professional development / design team. They have basically given the reigns to in-house staff that used to be playtesters, or card designers. The people actually involved in the development of the software have less professional software development experience than they should.

Until they change their hiring policies re: their digital product team, nothing will change. The people in charge (and I've interacted with some of them) are simply not at a level of competence necessary to design and maintain a product of this scope.

At least on playtesting is usually with higher quality opponents, since they do have tiered 'casual' rooms. Tournament Practice has, go figure, people who are playtesting for tournaments. People can only be so rude on the client since you be reported for calling someone a stream of childish insults. Being used to the interface allows for me to casually click through my phases or use shortcut keys (f4 is my best friend), which generally makes games smooth to me.

You can expedite the phase cycling process on MTGO by using hotkeys, but it is *still* a burden to press something every single time an "OK" pops up on the screen when in a player-enforced rules client, I can literally just draw a single card, move to the "end" step, and in this way be done with a whole turn in which I had no desire to play anything.

The best thing is that I've sold out of MTGO twice now. Always for more than I put into it. Prizes from events and being apprised of the market values, much like your paper collections, are real things once they deposit via paypal into your bank account. These prizes are a big part of what makes MTGO. Going infinite in drafts (which normally is not relevant to Vintage players, but given the VMA set...) means you're building your accounts worth. Playing in daily events and premier events (minimum of 64 players), as long as you don't scrub out, means more profit. And finally, playing enough that you get the promo rewards, in particular the MOCS rewards, means extra capital.

Finally, those free apps are good for testing. We've established that. But testing for what? I used to live in an area with plenty of Vintage options every week/month. In many areas in the US, and especially as many of us in the Vintage community have aged, being able to regularly attend events is a very hard endeavor or just plain impossible. That harsh reality set in for me when a 10 hour round trip to an event the next state over had me needing to actually win the event just to pay for the trip. Circle jerking on Cockatrice or whatever with no 'real 50+ person events in person' within a 700 mile range serves no purpose.

Have a family, in your late twenties/thirties with a finite amount of income, but sitting on $20,000 worth of cards and a need for a new car or have a house mortgage. Shit gets re-evaluated real fast.

As someone in his late 20s with disposable income and no family (nor any desire to start a family), I can travel to whichever tournament I want when I want, and testing online is simply a valuable tool to prepare for in-person Legacy, Modern, and Vintage tournaments. Maybe I'm unique - but I dont' think so, as many of my friends also play Magic in their late 20s and do not have any families nor any desire to start them.

And even if we take in-person tournament testing out of the picture, I've had many rewarding matches on cockatrice vs. skilled opponents (some who post on this website) that offered me nearly the same level of satisfaction and intellectual stimulation that an in-person Magic match would have, despite there not being any real money on the line. The key is simply to obtain quality, competent opponents, and through registered users and friends lists, Cockatrice does this better than any other free Magic software, and really dissuades me from sinking thousands of dollars into Vintage Masters just to get something slightly better on MTGO.

[Zherbus]

As someone in his late 20s with disposable income and no family (nor any desire to start a family), I can travel to whichever tournament I want when I want, and testing online is simply a valuable tool to prepare for in-person Legacy, Modern, and Vintage tournaments. Maybe I'm unique - but I dont' think so, as many of my friends also play Magic in their late 20s and do not have any families nor any desire to start them.

Well, we're two different demographics. If you're in your late twenties now, then you probably weren't much around for those of us that were here 8-13 years ago. I think people of the North East, for example, that actively have a scene is just one of those areas where it won't make a difference, unless someone is already a MODO Grinder anyway. I think that will branch out to the younger, more free Vintage players that don't mind really long car rides (full disclosure, I always hated any trip that breached a 3 hour mark).

The problem is simply that Wizards does not want to invest money in a professional development / design team. They have basically given the reigns to in-house staff that used to be playtesters, or card designers. The people actually involved in the development of the software have less professional software development experience than they should.

Until they change their hiring policies re: their digital product team, nothing will change. The people in charge (and I've interacted with some of them) are simply not at a level of competence necessary to design and maintain a product of this scope.

You'll LOVE this:

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Wizards-of-the-Coast-Company-Reviews-E4718_P2.htm

A big complaint, outside of a completely ineffective corporate structure, seems to be not only problematic in-house technology decisions in general, but also, it looks like they are still contracting out the coding of MTGO.

It's really too bad, because the actual 'let's make some sets and balance some shit' guys are pretty brilliant.

[Shock Wave]

A big complaint, outside of a completely ineffective corporate structure, seems to be not only problematic in-house technology decisions in general, but also, it looks like they are still contracting out the coding of MTGO.

Wow, I just read the thread you linked and it seems Wizards is clueless from an IT perspective, which does not bode well for their future. If it is true that they contract out their coding, it makes perfect sense that the product is a pile and development moves at a glacial pace. Sounds like a company that really knows their product, and has made poor technical choices in its deployment. Very unfortunate.

[yugular]

3 1/2 months is too short a time.  That is how long all the Master's Edition cards were out there, and that was too short. 

I would be really surprised if we didn't see VMA as a flashback draft format few times within the next year. So there will be supply, if only the format is good and people will draft it...

[Klep]

Vintage constructed queues are up! Get to it, gentlemen.

[IndependentGeorge]

I'm really hoping the two DE's (3:30 and 6:30)fire today. I will be there for both as well as others from over at CQ.

[Smmenen]

<snipped>

Black Lotus 225
Ancestral Recall 150
Time Walk 150
Moxes 125
Timetwister 50

Set:. 1250

Black Lotus 375
Ancestral Recall 300
Time Walk 250
Moxes 200
Timetwister 125

Set: 2050

So, I had the privilege of hanging out with Dave Williams virtually most of last night, and Dave Bought a Lotus, Ruby and Sapphire all for much less than these prices.  In fact, Dave may  have gotten the first Lotus opened.  It was funny to watch folks approach Dave with offers and he bartered them down.  Both Moxen were purchased at 150, and that was when they are are rare as they will ever be. 

[Soly]

<snipped>

Black Lotus 225
Ancestral Recall 150
Time Walk 150
Moxes 125
Timetwister 50

Set:. 1250

Black Lotus 375
Ancestral Recall 300
Time Walk 250
Moxes 200
Timetwister 125

Set: 2050

So, I had the privilege of hanging out with Dave Williams virtually most of last night, and Dave Bought a Lotus, Ruby and Sapphire all for much less than these prices.  In fact, Dave may  have gotten the first Lotus opened.  It was funny to watch folks approach Dave with offers and he bartered them down.  Both Moxen were purchased at 150, and that was when they are are rare as they will ever be. 

That looks like a quote straight from the supersecret meandeck.com boards!

[Twiedel]

Wanted to ephasize again that these were like "worst case scenario" numbers, and it's great to hear that these will be going for much less =) Hopefully I can get mine this low as well!

[gkraigher]

Opening cash prices are now on MTGOTraders web site. 

http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/vintage_masters.html