Derevi, Empyrial Tactician

[Protoaddict]

ANyone thought about this guy yet.

I know hes basically just a commander card and I'm 99% sure hes no good but he does let you go infinite with timevault and that always gets my interest.

If he or any creature you control hits he twiddles your vault open, and additionally since he is a legend, even if you cannot attack he can be bounced with Karakas and replayed to twiddle again.

Yes Vault key is still the gold standard but this guy does have some other applications in a bant shell so he may be a valuable one of. Or am I way off here?

[d8dk32]

I like to find ways to make odd cards work in Vintage, but I think you're way off on this one. It's worth pointing out that you could concievably use him to net mana off an Academy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

ANyone thought about this guy yet.

I know hes basically just a commander card and I'm 99% sure hes no good but he does let you go infinite with timevault and that always gets my interest.

If he or any creature you control hits he twiddles your vault open, and additionally since he is a legend, even if you cannot attack he can be bounced with Karakas and replayed to twiddle again.

Yes Vault key is still the gold standard but this guy does have some other applications in a bant shell so he may be a valuable one of. Or am I way off here?

The problem is that you have to compare him to Tezzeret. He's not really better than Tez or Sword of Feast and Famine. Now if you could play him from your sideboard via his alternate method, I think we'd be having a much more interesting discussion.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, at least you chose a cheap Commander to discuss, huh?  So let's see.  

Casting cost is WUG.  This is easy for Noble Fish to generate.  Somewhat more challenging for other decks without Hierarch.  And what do you get for your 3 mana?  A wind drake that taps stuff when he ETB and attacks. If this effect was worth a poop, a deck could run Petermite right now.

The only new thing that Capt. Wind Drake brings to the party is his untap-when-you-attack ability.  This is actually kind of spiffy if you are connecting with multiple creatures in a turn.  It starts to work like half of a Sword of Feast and Famine.  Alternatively, if you're tapping down your opponent's blue sources, they are less able to counter your own spells.  But, what are you protecting that you plan to cast after your 3 drop in a Vintage aggro deck...?

But, of course, now you're losing all your Exalted synergy if you are swinging with multiple creatures, so Noble Fish probably can't capitalize on this potential.  

My conclusion is this.  Bird King goes in a deck with a creature swarm and Edric, Spymaster.  Both of these guys immediately give you an effect when they drop, provided you have dudes to swing with in the meantime.  The deck's goal will be to connect with multiple creatures in a turn, and depending on the situation either Timewalk itself with Edric+BirdKing to deploy more threats or keep counter mana open, or to take down you opponent's mana so they cannot stop your spells.  The core of the deck probably starts like this:

3x Bird King
3x Edric, Spymaster
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Time Vault

Other candidates might be Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Ledgewalker, Invisible Stalker, True-Name Nemesis..?

I suspect, however, that relying on a combat-based engine that only gets on-line with your 3 drop is not a good deck. I've tried that with Rogues before and never been anywhere near competitive with it.

Ultimately, the Season of Bad Cards continues in full swing, I see.  Last time we made it into a Horse thread.  Can we make this into a Bird thread?  

EDIT: Or, how's this for a wacky list:

Elfwalk Beats

1cc (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Arbor Elf

2cc (16)
4 Priest of Titania

3cc (23)
3 Elvish Archdruid
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Bird King

Finsher (27)
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Omnath, Locus of Mana

Other Stuff (34)
1 Time Vault
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Warrior's Lesson

Mana (16)
2 Savanna
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest

The goal here being, of course, to ramp like a sonofabitch and then overwhelm your opponent in cards supplied by Edric, Glimpse, or Lesson.  Then you win with Craterhoof or with Time Vault.  The cute thing is that Bird King is green, so you can fetch him out with GSZ!

[Protoaddict]

I don't think its fair to compare him to pestermite and the like.

If pestermite comes down with a vault in play you get a timewalk
If this guy comes down with a vault in play you may just win on the spot if they can't stop him in the air instantly.

I'm not saying this is build around me, but the guy seems like he could be a fine 1-2 of in a bant shell as he provides consistent value and affects the board when played. At the worst he comes down turn 2 off a heirach and then untaps a land to give you counter mana and then just functions as a value engine the rest of the game.

If that happens to be a deck that can support timevault then all the better because now you just happen to have an I WIN combo backed with counter magic in your normally fair bant deck.

[MaximumCDawg]

Right, but that's exactly how I analyzed this guy in my last post.  The premier Bant aggro list is probably still Noble Fish (unless them Human players have something new going on I'm not aware of).  In such a deck, you are getting very little value for your large mana investment, since exalted discourages you from swinging with many dudes at once.  If I'm playing Noble Fish, all of the following give me more bang for the buck than Bird King:

Cold-Eyed Selkie
Vendilion Clique
Aven Mincensor
etc

So, if you want to make this guy work, he needs a new shell.  The silly elf list I came up with was a way to try to do that.

[Protoaddict]

Why do you need to swing with multiple guys?

While on their own all those named cards can be better, if this guy is able to hit in the air with a time vault in play you go infinite with that one guy, the exalted is mostly irrelevant because you just win if they don't stop you. Yes if you don't have the combo online then those other guys can be better but this guy does have applications the others do not.

If your deck cant support time vault I don't think we should even discuss this guy, however if you can I think he may deserve a slot, maybe even over something like the 3rd vclique or selkie. And of course just because he cannot be supported now, it does not mean that will always be the case. a core of:

1 Mox pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black lotus
1 Tinker
1 Timevault
1 Voltaic Key
X Derevi, Empyrial Tactician

Is certainly something that can become something strong at some point in the future, especially if more untap things come into being. He also works well with Aether Vial on 3 if that ever comes back in vogue, and with true-name nemesis it might.

[MaximumCDawg]

Because if you are not attacking with multiple dudes you are ignoring his potential as a way to ramp mana and/or lockdown the opponent.  If you ignore that, and treat him as an untapper for vault only, why not just play key and tezz, better cards?  Or, for that mateer, why not aphetto alchemist or synod artificer, terrible cards?

If Bird King works at all, you'd need to maximize his potential to justify his slot over the better three drops, and you do that in a swarm deck.  That's what I'm saying.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If Bird King works at all, you'd need to maximize his potential to justify his slot over the better three drops, and you do that in a swarm deck.  That's what I'm saying.

For untapping mana, he's not quite Sword of Feast and Famine. For interacting with Vault, he's not Tez. If you could play him for 4 from the sideboard, he'd be interesting as a strange sort of "gotcha" that let you untap Goyfs in response to Lodestone attacks. But you can't. He just untaps things, but not as well as Sword or Tez.

[DubDub]

Because if you are not attacking with multiple dudes you are ignoring his potential as a way to ramp mana and/or lockdown the opponent.  If you ignore that, and treat him as an untapper for vault only, why not just play key and tezz, better cards?  Or, for that mateer, why not aphetto alchemist or synod artificer, terrible cards?

If Bird King works at all, you'd need to maximize his potential to justify his slot over the better three drops, and you do that in a swarm deck.  That's what I'm saying.

Because this guy also has an 'enters the battlefield' clause in his trigger, and effectively has haste in the context of combo-ing with Time Vault?  That's pretty obvious.

The 'he's not very good with exalted' could be a blessing in disguise, because it might may you get away from Noble Hierarch and move toward Deathrite Shaman, which is a much better card.  I think the home for this guy is more the WUGb Keeper style than Bant Fish.

[Protoaddict]

Because if you are not attacking with multiple dudes you are ignoring his potential as a way to ramp mana and/or lockdown the opponent.  If you ignore that, and treat him as an untapper for vault only, why not just play key and tezz, better cards?  Or, for that mateer, why not aphetto alchemist or synod artificer, terrible cards?

If Bird King works at all, you'd need to maximize his potential to justify his slot over the better three drops, and you do that in a swarm deck.  That's what I'm saying.

Because this guy also has an 'enters the battlefield' clause in his trigger, and effectively has haste in the context of combo-ing with Time Vault?  That's pretty obvious.

The 'he's not very good with exalted' could be a blessing in disguise, because it might may you get away from Noble Hierarch and move toward Deathrite Shaman, which is a much better card.  I think the home for this guy is more the WUGb Keeper style than Bant Fish.

He also makes for a 2 card combo win, which those other cards do not. You still need something that wins with those cards as they don't damage if they are Untapping. He is also substantially cheaper than Tezz and in most cases a turn faster since he untaps a vault the turn he comes into play.

He is also a 2/3 flyer with a CITP ability and a global ability which can be very strong. He survives pyroclasm, infest, and all these tech anti pyromancer cards that are seeing play maindeck lately. Just being able to untap lands for counter mana is a huge deal if you wanna win a tempo match, then consider what this guy can enable with a Library of Alexandra in play, or some other tap for effect card.