Thoughts on Eternal Weekend Top 8 Lists

[Smmenen]

Landstill and blue angels want to do the same thing in every match up, which is why they are similar decks.  It doesn't matter whether it's killing on turn 7 or turn 30.  That part is irrelevant because either way it's still slower than every other deck in the format and needs to control in order to win.  The point from my first post to take from this is that this is a legitimate strategy.

The heuristics used to categorize Vintage (and Magic) strategies are imprecise.  I'll admit to having some difficulty with them myself, given their inherent imprecision.   Even the most pure control decks must eventually attack, which is an aggro role.   It's complicated further when you have things like the "Angel Gambit" and later the "morphling gambit" where Brian Weissman would sometimes play a T1 Angel and try to ride it to victory in an aggro mode. 

Although it's hard to define it, I think there is a distinction between Blue Angels/Bomberman and Landstill.  Landstill is much more of a pure control deck.  In fact, it's probably the deck that is not only the most controlling in the format, it's the heir to the Mono Blue Control strategy.

Bomberman is complicated because it has a combo finish and can often go into an aggro role in a way that Landstill can't.   There are times that Bob, Trinket Mage and Salvagers are just used for damage and marginal card advantage, just as Blue Angels can use its creatures in tandem in the same way. 

That makes those strategies different from Landstill, which really doesn't have that mode.  If we wanted to be precise, from an archetype level, I'd call Landstill Slow Control, Blue Angels, Control-Aggro, and Bomberman, Control-Aggro-Combo. 

[Samoht]

Landstill and blue angels want to do the same thing in every match up, which is why they are similar decks.  It doesn't matter whether it's killing on turn 7 or turn 30.  That part is irrelevant because either way it's still slower than every other deck in the format and needs to control in order to win.  The point from my first post to take from this is that this is a legitimate strategy.

I never said, nor will I ever say, that either deck isn't a legitimate strategy. My only contention is in lumping them together. They are very different to me based on how I classify their plans - especially when identifying what actually kills you from each deck and the best way to beat those cards. I want Wasteland, Ancient Grudge, and Lightning Bolt for Landstill and I want Dismember, Mindbreak Trap, Thoughtseize, and to a lesser extent Abrupt Decay against Angels. Crucible is great against Landstill and abysmal against Angels. The decks function very differently and are built very differently based on what they need to do to actually close the game. Just because they want both want to counter some spells doesn't mean they are the same deck/strategy. That would put Grixis, Strixis, Baleful Richards, BUG Midrange, or 4c (Keeper) Control in the same bracket, and those decks are different yet again entirely.

[vaughnbros]

I'm not going to argue the semantics of defining an archetype.  Steve your method for defining a deck's archetype is different from mine.  Tom you seem to refuse to want to group any deck together.  Arguing these things is not the topic of the thread so Ill leave it at that.

[Smmenen]

I'm not going to argue the semantics of defining an archetype.  Steve your method for defining a deck's archetype is different from mine.  Tom you seem to refuse to want to group any deck together.  Arguing these things is not the topic of the thread so Ill leave it at that.

I think it's worth a separate thread conversation if you are inclined.  But my general rule is to borrow from what others have developed.  Jeff Cunningham wrote a pretty good article for the Magic Academy setting out archetype definitions (which are different than deck definitions).  Chapin's latest book also has an entire section devoted to it (according to the free preview).  These are heuristics, and not objective viewpoints -- it's a set of common ways of looking at the world that magic players have developed over time. 

[Commandant]

For what it is worth my intention was not to draw similarities in the overall strategy and associated tactics of both UW Flash and UR Landstill. Rather, that the shells which are very similar in composition are viable - the OP and some subsequent posters adamantly deny that validity despite admitting their very limited experience with the list. I thought my language was clear.

I vastly underestimated the desire of individuals on this site to seek argument over nothing.

[Greg]

Oath of Druids - Greg Fenton
Greg has been on a tear with Oath of Druids.  Unfortunately, it’s a very straightforward deck, and as Greg even puts it he just “beep beep boop”s his opponents.  I don’t think there’s anything really innovative about the list, other than the fact no real ‘control’ based oath deck has Top 8ed a Champs event since 2008.

Soly, I appreciate the comments, but I'm a little insulted at how you "evaluated" my Eternal Weekend run.

You seem to be insinuating that my deck is entirely straightforward and not innovative in the slightest. My deck has grown and expanded throughout my entire time piloting it. Just taking a look at this year alone, the deck has seen many subtle, yet important and deliberate changes. Outside of a few friends and acquaintances that have come to me for advice on how to pilot "my" specific deck, I very rarely see anybody else playing this type of deck on their own accord. I've innovated this deck to be just what I feel it needs to be. In 2013, I've rarely been proven wrong.

People will say to me that I "need" to be running a draw engine; that I "need" to be playing Rune-Scarred Demon; that I "need" to include the Storm kill combo; that I "need" to be playing red as a fourth color; that I "need" to be playing Burning Wish, Tinker, Regrowth, Swan Song, etc, etc. I respect and appreciate these opinions, but at the same time, I've always done what I've felt was right for the deck, whether it's my personal decision or somebody else's advice. Maybe I will take some of that advice in the future, but I went with my own ideas for the Eternal Weekend.

All of the subtle decisions regarding my 75 deck slots were carefully and thoughtfully decided upon. It proved important throughout the Vintage Championship. Every single card ended up being a strong factor at some point in the day. With 4 Mental Misstep, 1 Strip Mine, 0 Burning Wish, and 15 counterspells alongside 2 Show and Tell in the maindeck (to name a few of my decisions), I'm not sure how you could say that the deck was not innovative in the slightest.

The "beep beep boop" thing is a running joke with a few close friends of mine. It's fun to laugh about, but at the same time, it's just a joke. It seems that my level of play and knowledge regarding the format are being completely ignored by you, or seemingly said to not exist. My deck is not just some random list, nor am I winning on sheer luck.

[Phele]

It is a pitty, that you seem to be so insulted by his post, but I don't really get the reason for it. You obviously mastered this kind of archetype, otherwise you wouldn't have come so far in such a big and competetive tournament. Congratulations on that. But the only thing he said was: There is nothing really innovative about your list. And that's true. I don't see any new tech, any unique card, any special combination that hasn't used in (plenty) Oath lists before. That is what I would expect to call a list really innovative. Show an Tell, Strip Mine, Counter heavy ... nothing new under the sun. That doesn't mean, that you haven't carefully thought about your combination and numbers of this well known cards and tested this configurationl seriously. But who says so?

[tribet]

According to Word2010, "Improvement", "Invention", "Modernization" and "Revolution" are all synonyms of "Innovation". I got my sources right, right?

Once again, I feel like we are arguing about semantic. I think there may have been a hint of sarcasm and maybe self-mockery in Soly's OP but I didn't read any bitterness, arrogance nor criticism. For what it is worth, it is was an interesting short summary, a different take on the Game and I may even have taken a couple of things out of it.

While I’m here Greg, congratulations on your epic tourney. The amount of work you put into your deck is evident. More than the actual 75 cards jammed together at one particular point in time, your preparation and mindset are the key to success. In other words, the time spent thinking about each slot, each scenario, weighing the pros, the cons... but I also do not underestimate the role of subtle personal techs, preferences or pet cards.

[vaughnbros]

Oath of Druids - Greg Fenton
Greg has been on a tear with Oath of Druids.  Unfortunately, it’s a very straightforward deck, and as Greg even puts it he just “beep beep boop”s his opponents.  I don’t think there’s anything really innovative about the list, other than the fact no real ‘control’ based oath deck has Top 8ed a Champs event since 2008.

Soly, I appreciate the comments, but I'm a little insulted at how you "evaluated" my Eternal Weekend run.

I wouldn't get too insulted Greg seeing as he ripped on 5 of 8 of the top 8 decks not just yours.  You did a great job and your list is rock solid!  
It certainly seems innovative to me as I personally haven't seen an oath deck with such a heavy counter and removal package.

[Soly]

Oath of Druids - Greg Fenton
Greg has been on a tear with Oath of Druids.  Unfortunately, it’s a very straightforward deck, and as Greg even puts it he just “beep beep boop”s his opponents.  I don’t think there’s anything really innovative about the list, other than the fact no real ‘control’ based oath deck has Top 8ed a Champs event since 2008.

Soly, I appreciate the comments, but I'm a little insulted at how you "evaluated" my Eternal Weekend run.

I apologize Greg if that's how it seems.  I do not mean to diminish your success not only at the Championship, but for a long time up on the coast.   You are correct, and what I was trying to relay is that you are the first with a straight Oath Deck successfully since 2013.  However, I just don't find that there are any "omg, look at this tech" parts of the list.  In a glance through, it's a run of the mill oath deck.   I have no doubt that you have fine-tuned the numbers and etc.

People will say to me that I "need" to be running a draw engine; that I "need" to be playing Rune-Scarred Demon

These people are wrong.  Any Oath deck not running Griselbrand is immediately invalidated as an option, in my opinion.  The ONLY games I have won with Griselbrand on the table are where they're at too low of life to activate it.  I have won more games than I have lost when the Rune-Scarred Dragon Oath deck triggers their enchantment.   Rune-Scarred Demon doesn't do well from behind; it only is good when you're ahead, or trying to break parody.

that I "need" to include the Storm kill combo; that I "need" to be playing red as a fourth color; that I "need" to be playing Burning Wish Tinker, Regrowth, Swan Song, etc, etc.

I think straight Oath is just better right now than Combo Oath.  I also tried Regrowth, and it just cluttered your hand with more dead cards until you triggered Oath.

I'm not sure how you could say that the deck was not innovative in the slightest.

I think our definition of innovative is completely different.   While I am very interested in why you decided to run Strip Mine, but not wastelands, etc,  I feel that a lot of what was done is pretty standard for Oath.   Again, I don't disagree you've been the most successful Oath pilot in a long time (James King circa 2008ish comes to Mind but that's it).

It seems that my level of play and knowledge regarding the format are being completely ignored by you, or seemingly said to not exist. My deck is not just some random list, nor am I winning on sheer luck.

Again, I really need to apologize here Greg.   You've met me several times, I would hope you wouldn't think that I would be insulting you, because I am not.  

If you want to chat about this further, please hit my Inbox as I don't want you to feel slighted by me, but I don't want to derail one of my first threads in years.

Tidied up quote tags. -Godder