TheManaDrain.com
September 11, 2025, 07:49:40 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 14
  Print  
Author Topic: Human Ingenuity  (Read 92781 times)
hashswag
Basic User
**
Posts: 130


View Profile
« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2014, 01:12:48 pm »

Gifts: If the deck wants a threat, the opponent will always give you the worst 2 threats. If you want an answer, you'll probably get the wrong one. Sure, there are some double ups, like dismember/path, but rarely do you have 3 levels of redundancy (especially with no Snapcaster). I think Gifts is a lot better when you proactively have suitable piles built into the deck (e.g. vault/key/snapcaster/will) or need protection (e.g. a combo piece in hand, so one card is replaced with a force) or a similar situation. I think in this deck, Gifts would just be a pretty average tutor.

Jace: I can't say for sure due to limited experience with the deck, but I think it might struggle to play Jace reliably, especially with 1-2 Thalia's in play.

I think Bob+Acall will probably draw enough cards over the first few turns to not really worry about playing extra blue packages (FoF, tutors, cantrips, etc), especially considering that this deck doesn't need to draw that many cards to be effective. It also probably prefers the threat density of something with utility and a clock in the slot. I don't know if I'd play two, but one seems good.

Not sure if this or Spirit would be better in this deck, though. I'm inclined to say that spirit is the better card, but I find that when I've played spirit in other decks (mostly fish variants), my opponent will wait until the critical turn, destroy the Spirit and use the manipulation spells they've been sandbagging to find their answer to my creatures, put their combo together, etc.

I think I can agree with your assessment of Jace in the deck pretty readily. I think you undervalue the power of Gifts, but most do. If you can't leverage the two threats over the NT you're deck is probably pretty weak to begin with. That said, it still is not a creature and gets pushed out by Thalia (lol @ 2 in play, you must have special ones!).

I'll admit that I just threw out the first 4 cmc blue cards that came to my head as very powerful. I will even admit that in this shell they aren't as powerful as in the typical decks you see them in, based on an assortment of reasons. I still think there are better cards for the deck than NT, they just might not be 4 cmc blue ones.

Very Happy I was testing a blue deck against shops earlier, so I've been counting sphere effects all night. If only sphere of resistance was legendary!

Unfortunately, I have a grand total of 0 Thalias in my collection. Sad
Logged
Guli
Basic User
**
Posts: 1763


View Profile
« Reply #121 on: April 08, 2014, 09:53:30 am »

I rather play Intuition then, it is cheaper to cast and can get things with flashback. I would probably play more flashback cards and Oath of Ghouls + Eternal Witness can go main deck. However the problem is that I don't need all that, I need Notion Thief and Exava and I did not reach this conclusion by looking at a completed, tuned list and then formulated an opinion on the matter. No, it took me a lot of testind and tuning to come to the end configuration and the amount of slots I wanted for the 4cc cards.

If you start cutting a NT and/or other cards, I don't think the overall balance of the deck will stay intact and the SB will probably have to change as well.

Let me say this in another and maybe more straightforward way, you can't just glimpse at my list and start making suggestions of changes that may seem logical for you on a theoretical level. This is a deck that has a history and good results and the variant I create for each event is never the same to its predecessors.

This also implies that, in order for you to make a comment on a specific card choice and the amount of slots that is being used for that card, you should know the metagame in which this deck is being launched. If I would make a Human deck to launch in the metagame Brian is playing in, it would look a lot different that the list I used. It would probably have Azami and Torpor Orb Smile
Logged

hashswag
Basic User
**
Posts: 130


View Profile
« Reply #122 on: April 08, 2014, 11:44:09 am »

What's the justification for 1x Dismember + 1x Path? Is it to get around Misstep? In my testing I've preferred 2 paths, or even a third in place of the Cage (which I've moved to the sideboard). I find that against Oath, it's hard to rely on getting the cage in play and protecting it (both on the stack and on the battlefield), and then when they do start oathing, there isn't much you can do with only one removal spell mainboard.
Logged
Guli
Basic User
**
Posts: 1763


View Profile
« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2014, 11:48:12 am »

I played Oath 2 times in 5 games and I took 4 games out of 5 thanks to Cage, Thalia and Decay.

Path/Dismember and Grudge are for Workshop mainly but they are also very useful elsewhere. I opted for Path instead of Swords to Plowshares because I didn't want to give Workshop or Oath life when I exile their Wurmcoil or Griselbrand. Dismember and Path also can get rid of an early Dark Confidant.
Logged

hashswag
Basic User
**
Posts: 130


View Profile
« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2014, 12:14:39 pm »

I agree re: Path over StP.

How have you found Karakas? When do you board it in (besides Oath)?
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2014, 12:49:11 pm »

This is a primer and brief report on the Humans list I was running for the past 2 months.  Some people have told me they would like to play the lists but aren't sure how to pilot them without more guidance so I will attempt to explain some of their attributes.  Out of five events, Magus Bomberman reached Top 8 four times, including a first place finish and an additional Top 4 placing. Additionally, a friend of mine in Toronto area played Magus Bomberman at a local Vintage event and took the whole thing down. Magus of the Future himself is beginning to appear in more and more lists online as well, ranging from Bomberman to Jace Vault to Gush combo.  Its potential is gradually becoming more recognized in Vintage.  

Magus Bomberman (60)



Artifacts (15):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Creatures (10):
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Trinket Mage
1 Magus of the Future
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grand Abolisher

Instants (10):
2 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
1 Gifts Ungiven

Sorceries (7):
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Planeswalker (1):
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (17):
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 War Priest of Thune
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Notion Thief
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Compared to the list Saturday, I included two changes that are reflected above:
+1 Preordain
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Mox Opal
 
Maindeck and sideboard slots are flexible.  I went with 2 Swords and 1 Disenchant because I expected more trouble from creature decks like Merfolk & "Zardoz" than Oath of Druids.  As always, the more diverse one's palette of answers and threats are, the more difficult it is for an opponent to hate you out or make accurate predictions around which to play.  

So why play Magus of the Future?

Future Sight has an important history in Vintage, both as a CA engine and then more notably appearing in the Sensei, Sensei combo deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9794_The_Complete_Sensei_Sensei_Primer.html) developed by our own Grand Inquisitor.  Expensive blue card advantage permanents fell by the wayside during the Gifts era and throughout second Gush era but finally regained popularity with the success of Jace, the Mind Sculptor.  Magus of the Future serves a deck in a manner comparable to Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Tezzeret the Seeker; they're higher casting costs blue bombs that quickly take over the game, in Jace's case due to overwhelming card filtering/advantage/control and in Tezzeret's case due to combo assembly.  In terms of effect type, Magus falls in between Jace and Tezzeret.  While it forgoes the inherent control mechanisms of Jace, its card advantage yield has a significantly higher power ceiling level than Jace's Brainstorm.  Much like Tezzeret, tapping out to play Magus of the Future in the early game is a threat to untap and win on the following turn.  With a more developed mid-game mana base, the action starts immediately and if the turn is passed (or you Time Walk), you should either win the game on your following turn or accumulate an insurmountable advantage.  Since it's not directly assembling Time Vault win, its advantage isn't negated by an opponent neutralizing the Time Vault.  

In terms of vulnerability, Magus is about equal to Jace and Tezzeret.  All three die to Lightning Bolt if they immediately generate card advantage.  None can be Abrupt Decayed.  While Magus can be hit with Swords or Dismember by certain decks, he can never be attacked with creatures, named by Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle, screwed up by Spirit of the Labyrinth/Notion Thief, or have tutoring interfered with by Leonin Arbiter/Aven Mindcensor.  The primary advantage Magus has over Jace and Tezzeret is that he is uncounterable with Cavern of Souls.  This is the game-changer that makes the card playable.  In decks running Cavern, his casting cost is only deceptively higher than Jace's as the Cavern cannot provide  {U} for Jace while it can for Magus, he can be played in those times where you only have 1 blue source but have 2 Caverns in play, and with Cavern you don't have to leave any mana open to protect him from opposing Spell Pierces, Drains, or Forces.  He just resolves.  It's what he does best.  

The decks that benefit most from Magus of the Future are decks that want to close the game with a combo kill, whether that kill is Tendrils of Agony, Tinker, Time Vault, Talrand, Sky Summoner, Auriok Salvagers, Painter's Servant, or something else.  It is not appropriate in a deck like Landstill.  It isn't necessary to "choose" between Jace, Tezzeret, and Magus since none of the three are mutually exclusive with any other.  A notable feature of running Magus of the Future along with Jace is that while additional copies of Jace cannot be played due to the Planeswalker "legend" rule and while Magus of the Future into Magus of the Future is a null/redundant reveal, Jacestorming into Magus or revealing Jace on top of Magus's library provides additional potential plays.  For this reason, in the list I played, I was able to diversify suite of big blue bombs into 1 Jace, 1 Magus, and 1 Gifts Ungiven for maximum flexibility.  

Some general guidelines for using Magus of the Future:

1. If possible, refrain from playing lands from hand unless necessary because you want to play lands from your library instead and reveal accelerants and business spells beneath.  

2. When playing Brainstorm/Jacestorm, put Moxen and other easily cast accelerants (Sol Ring, Noble Hierarch) back on top of library so that you can put them directly into play.  

3. Preordain and Ponder are very silly when Magus is on the table.  When ordering cards, remember that you sill have to "draw" one when they resolve so the one to go on top is a land if you've already played one, any counterspell for which you have no immediate need, or any card you don't intend to play this turn.  The accelerants and business spells should go underneath.

4. Keep all fetches unused until necessary because cracking a fetchland will continue any action that has stalled due to a second land or unusable counterspell being on top of library.  Sometimes however you can pass the turn with an unused counter/answer on top of library if you judge it is the right thing to do; it's extremely demoralizing for a Shop player for instance to play their turn with Hurkyl's Recall just sitting there waiting to be played without even requiring you to lose a card in hand.  

5. Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top = {1}: Draw a card.  Notably, the infinite mana loop generated by Auriok Salvagers enables you to draw your entire library if those are the combo pieces that happen to be in play.

6. In the early game, it's best to think of playing Magus as one thinks of playing Tezzeret, the Seeker.  You're giving your opponent one critical turn to stop you and channeling if they don't close the game in that one narrow turn, you plan to run away with it. Fortunately, you don't have to worry about losing your Magus to attacking creatures.  In the mid-late game, Magus often won't require a change of turns as you can start playing spells immediately; every Mox reveal is a free +1 CA, and they then enable you to play more spells, which find more mana, or Time Walk, or Yawgmoth's Will, etc.

7. Foil Magus of the Future is highly majestic.  Some cards really work as foils while others are underwhelming.  Magus is one of the best.  

Here are some general guidelines for using Auriok Salvagers that are common knowledge to Bomberman pilots but some of which aren't immediately apparent from the outside.

1. The marquis combo you're looking for is Auriok Salvagers + Black Lotus + AEther/Nihil Spellbomb which allows you to generate infinite mana and draw without limit.  It takes {4} {W} {W} to play Auriok Salvagers and begin the chain immediately, one white of which can be Cavern mana.  Remember to save white from your Lotus to do so.  

2. If you begin the chain with an extra {1} {W}, you can simply use it again if an opponent counters your Lotus.  Similarly, if an opponent responds to your first activation by exiling your graveyard or Surgical Extracting you, you can activate it in response to their action to still salvage your Lotus.  Opponents find this very annoying.  The mighty Salvager is resilient.

3. Another way to draw your library with infinite mana but without Spellbomb is to have Engineered Explosives and Sensei's Divining Top in play or graveyard.  You play Top and Explosives for 1, draw with Top and in response, crack the EE, sending both to the graveyard and netting you +1 card.  You then recur both the Top and the Explosives, rinse, wash, repeat.  

4. Infinite Auriok mana + Merchant Scroll or Gifts Ungiven will enable you to draw your entire library as well.  Play Gifts for anything that includes a Spellbomb or likewise, play Merchant Scroll for Gifts Ungiven and then do it.  

5. Auriok Salvagers is still a significant card advantage engine even when not being activated for infinite mana.  An AEther Spellbomb in the graveyard allows you to draw a card for {3} {W}.  Nihil Spellbomb enables the same for  {2} {W} {B}.  You're also able to bounce creatures and recur the Bomb and keep an opponent's graveyard constantly exiled.  Recurring Engineered Explosives even without Lotus is devastating to many decks.  I've won Dredge games frequently with only one hate card + Auriok Salvagers because he enables you to Crypt them every turn.  Additionally, Auriok can recover a countered Sensei's Divining Top, Grafdigger's Cage, or Voltaic Key, the recovery of each has contributed directly to game wins.  

6. Note also that Engineered Explosives has intricate interactions with Sphere effects and Chalice of the Void.  With two Sphere effects in play, you can cast Engineered Explosives with a Tundra and Island  {W} {U} declaring that its casting cost is {0} but Sunburst is 2.  Then you can eliminate the Spheres.  Also, Engineered Explosives with Sunburst at 0 can destroy all Chalices even though it would initially seem that Chalice at 0 would counter EE on 0.  What you do is play the Explosives with colorless mana from Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Library of Alexandria, or Cavern of Souls and declare X = 1, Sunburst = 0.  Boom.  Another important tactic to remember is when setting EE at 1 against decks known to be running Mental Misstep (for instance to kill a pair of Deathrite Shamans or Cursecatchers), you can tap the Cavern, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, or Library for an additional colorless, declaring that X = 2 (immunizing it from Misstep), but Sunburst will be 1.  

7. Every Trinket Mage is a Demonic Tutor for Dredge hate.  This allows you a bit more flexibility in sideboard choices.  I choose not to run Rest in Peace because I enjoy Yawgmoth's Will, Snapcaster, Gifts, and the Salvager recursion plans.    

8. If you have Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mage in play with one of the combo pieces but not the other, you can acquire it by Repealing, Jace-bouncing, or using AEther Spellbomb on the Trinket Mage and replaying him to grab the missing piece.  Similarly, if you are building a Gifts pile and have Snapcaster Mage in play, keep in mind that Repeal and AEther Spellbomb are sneaky ways of acquiring instants/sorceries in the graveyard by using them on the Snapcaster Mage.  This won't always be readily apparent to an opponent.  

Some general information on the deck:

While the mana base can produce 4 colors, it is primarily a UW deck with a black splash solely for Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will.  The green is only for Noble Hierarch who is a conduit for Cavern mana into general purpose {W} {U} and {G} (which can play the other Hierarch or make larger Engineered Explosives), provides desirable acceleration into higher CC bombs, massive Yawgmoth's Wills, Auriok + Recur, early Grand Abolisher + uncounterable threats, and hedges against mana denial in the form of Null Rod, Spheres, and Chalice @ 0.  This requires little accommodation in the list other than making Island #3 a Tropical Island, which is only to be fetched if needed to play Hierarch when a Cavern cannot be found.  The reason there are two Underground Seas and two Tundras instead of 3/1 is because the Hierarch can provide white whereas black can only come from Jet, Lotus, & Sea so you don't want to be cut off from Demonic/Will by a single Wasteland.  

Magus Bomberman is a combo-control deck with a more emphasis on mana development and winning via combo than hard denial control.  The lowered amount of counterspells is acceptable because part of the work they do is already covered by your Cavern mana base (economical) and the Abolisher.  In a non-Cavern combo-control deck, the beauty of cards like Force and Misdirection is that they not only stop your opponent from winning but they also protect the spells you need to resolve to win.  In this shell, the latter aspect is already covered by Cavern of Souls and Grand Abolisher, so that important utility of the card disadvantage hard counters becomes redundant and unnecessary.  Hence, the counter suite is primarily to be used defensively while your lands and Defense Grid-bear serve the offensive role.  

The reason Auriok Salvagers works as a the main combo kill here is because it's resilient, it's independently useful, and it's uncounterable with a Cavern.  Decks relying on Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay are very weak to Salvagers.  One of the main combo pieces, Black Lotus, is going to appear in your Vintage {U} deck anyway and the Spellbombs are important parts of the Trinket Mage's toolbox, so choosing this kill doesn't require dedicating slots to potentially dead cards.  I went with Nihil Spellbomb over Grafdigger's Cage main because it cycles in useless matches, enables the combo kill, and the Cage interferes with other maindeck cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Magus, and Snapcaster Mage.  Pithing Needle is another good sideboard option; I just didn't have room for it.

Dark Confidant is playable though not necessary by any means.  This Saturday I decided I didn't want a draw engine that triggers Oath of Druids and requires constant babysitting with Top & Jace that is increasingly becoming an emergency do-or-die proposition with Merfolk in the meta.  Tinker -> Robot is playable but since my other combo kill would be weak to Swords to Plowshares, I opted for Vault Key.  Tinker itself is still included as an effective tutor for Black Lotus, Time Vault, or an Auriok combo piece.  

Cards this deck finds annoying:



If one's meta is infested with Null Rod Fish, I would drop Vault/Key and add Blightsteel Colossus to the maindeck and with another Disenchant to the sideboard.  For Stony Silence decks, keep in mind that this anti-Oath all star



also doubles as Stony Silence/Spirit of the Labyrinth removal and can be replayed using AEther Spellbomb, Jace Bounce, or Repeal. It bears noting that the reason the War Priest is so consistently included in my sideboards is because he's the most effective and reliable Oath removal in the format for decks running Cavern of Souls.  Unlike True Believer which would require Cavern + Mox Pearl or Black Lotus on the first turn to deal with a fast Oath, the War Priest functions with any off-color Mox.  He cannot be Misdirected like Abrupt Decay and with the Cavern, he cannot be countered.  Finally, he does not sit around waiting to be Decayed or Nature's Claimed like a Grafdigger's Cage and can be bounced/replayed to destroy additional Oaths, so this card is where you want to be in that match-up.  You also want to board him in if paired against one of those Show and Tell->Omniscience decks that appear in the format from time to time.  

For the fetchland configuration, I diversified them as much as possible because the only basic land is Island so we can freely hedge against Pithing Needle (I thought losing to Needle on Flooded Strand was something that stopped happening years ago but indeed, I got snared by it a few months back at Top Deck Games) as well as mask our deck's identity in the early turns.  People in a tournament aren't generally expecting to see Auriok Salvagers when you lead with Scalding Tarn.  

The Llawan, Cephalid Empress in the sideboard is an anti-Merfolk blowout card with important applications against Blue Angels, Delver, BUG Fish (Trygon, Snapper), and Cavern Wizard/Vendilion Clique decks.  In a pinch, it can also be used to prevent an opponent from playing Laboratory Maniac or bouncing Inkwell Leviathan.  I sometimes play Karakas in this slot instead, but it's a discretionary slot so feel free to modify it to one's own tastes.  

Here are some tips and sideboarding strategies for specific match-ups.

Workshop

You interact with it like any other blue deck, hope to win the die roll, use Merchant Scroll for Hurkyl's Recall and aim to clear the board and win.  Since you don't lean heavily on Jace, Mishra's Factory and Mutavault aren't as annoying.  Noble Hierarchs do very important work here.  Engineered Explosives is also very important and prevents a Chalice 1 + Chalice 2 lockout.  

SB out: Grand Abolisher, Mental Missteps, Flusterstorm, Nihil Spellbomb
SB in: Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Hurkyl's Recall, Steel Sabotage

I occasionally sideboard in Mindbreak Trap v. Metalworker lists, Karakas for an extra land if I'm running it in SB, and sometimes sideboard out Auriok # 2 on the draw.  His recursion of Engineered Explosives typically is more relevant here than his ability to combo out.  

Storm/Gush

Use Trinket Mage for Nihil Spellbomb to prevent massive Yawgmoth's Wills, use Merchant Scroll for Flusterstorm/Mental Missteps, and recur them with Snapcaster Mages.  You're the control role here and wait to focus on your own combos until after they run out of gas (barring the snap keep first turn Auriok wins, which usually involve both Black Lotus and Mana Crypt).  

SB out: AEther Spellbomb, Hurkyl's Recall, Repeal, Grand Abolisher, and either Vault/Key or 1 Auriok and/or 1 mana source (Hierarch on the draw, Island on the play)
SB in: Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Steel Sabotage (non-Gush decks only), Tormod's Crypt, Notion Thief, Ethersworn Canonist

Fish

Everything they do is a nuisance; Grand Abolisher gives you great peace of mind.  Null Rod with a lot of protection and outdrawing you with Bob/Silvergill Adept are the most annoying scenarios.

SB out: Force of Wills, Nihil Spellbomb, Hurkyl's Recall, and possibly Vault/Key as it's an uphill battle trying to find and resolve both combo pieces through their slithery counter suites, Decays, and Null Rods.  These aren't matches where you want to 2-for-1 yourself Forcing a creature and often you can't even do that if they land their own Cavern.  Removal and Flusterstorms are better options.  
SB in: Disenchant (for Null Rod), Swords to Plowshares, Llawan, Cephalid Empress (for Merfolk and BUG with Trygon), Steel Sabotage (for Null Rod), Flusterstorm.  

For Junk Fish and White based Fish, War Priest of Thune should also be sided in to deal with Stony Silence and Spirit of the Labyrinth.  

Oath of Druids

These g1's can go either way.  I had the opportunity to play several g1's in Lancaster against Greg who placed third at Champs last year with his now famous Control Oath list.  The games seemed to be evenly split.  Generally, if the Oath player has an Orchard and fast Oath or early Show and Tell + Griselbrand, that spells trouble.  Otherwise, the games tended to end with relatively fast Cavern-backed Salvagers kills.  I feel more confident playing Oath-post sb, especially on this list which is not running Bob (the list I played that day included him).  One thing that's distinct about these blue lists from Human Fish is that sometimes you don't "need" to answer their threat because another respectable response is to simply kill them on your own turn.  How elegant.

SB out: Hurkyl's Recall, Repeal, Noble Hierarchs (so they don't trigger the Oath), Nihil Spellbomb
SB in: War Priest of Thune, Disenchant, Steel Sabotage (for Vault/Key), Notion Thief, Grafdigger's Cage

Dredge

I've had more successful g1's against Dredge with this deck than any I've played before primarily because of the maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, the Trinket Mages who "discover" it, and understanding that the goal isn't to annihilate them completely, but simply to buy enough time to resolve Salvager and either combo out or recur Nihil Spellbomb every turn.

SB out: Force of Wills (Misstep is a thousand times better and Force is constantly named with blind Cabal Therapies), Hurkyl's Recall, Grand Abolisher
SB in: Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb

They will likely assume you're on Rest in Peace so the Wispmares will be blank draws.  Tormod's Crypt is the best Trinket target because it's free and immune to Misstep; Salvager is a beast.  Dredge would prefer to see a Cage to destroy with Ingot/Claim as they can resume their evils immediately thereafter; they hate digging for Spellbomb/Crypt removal and then having to begin the Dredge process anew, losing critical tempo while your mana base expands into capacity for broken plays.

Delver

Delver preys on the blue decks that are heavily invested in Jace and Magus Bomberman doesn't have that issue.  The only major threats in this match-up are fast double-Delvers and Thoughtseize from the Grixis version.  Otherwise, Delver is extremely soft to Cavern of Souls, Auriok Salvagers, Grand Abolisher, and Library of Alexandria.  Repeal and Engineered Explosives are excellent here as well.  

SB out: Force of Wills, Nihil Spellbomb, Hurkyl's Recall
SB in: Flusterstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Notion Thief, Ethersworn Canonist

Canonist is incredible because they cannot Gush and play a spell on the same turn with the virtual mana generated.  She is of course Human and immunized from countermagic by Cavern of Souls.  The best use for her though is waiting until they play a spell and responding with Ancestral Recall or Gifts Ungiven, which they must then endure without protest despite likely having 2-4 relevant counters in hand.  Significantly, Ethersworn Canonist does not interfere with the Auriok combo because its pieces are artifacts so its effect is largely asymmetrical.  

Jace Vault

Ironically, while they have higher density of counter-magic, you are the control role here.  If they don't land turn 1 Bob, they'll probably commit to a Tinker or Vault plan, each of which can be proactively or reactively neutralized with the appropriate Trinket (AEther Spellbomb for Robot, Engineered Explosives for Vault, Nihil Spellbomb to make sure it stays dead).  Naturally, another possible way to neutralize a Colossus is to Vault Key them yourself or combo out with on your own turn.  In this match-up, I try to be patient with drawn Spellbombs instead of recklessly cracking them to draw cards.  They are strong deterrents to Tinker/Will and can force an opponent into uncomfortable lines of play.  

SB out: 1 mana source, Tinker, Repeal, Hurkyl's Recall
SB in: Flusterstorm, Steel Sabotage, Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares

Although I couldn't find room for it in the sideboard that day, Pithing Needle is pretty good to board in for this match-up if it's available.

Bomberman

There are no maindeck Swords to Plowshares so game 1, you are the aggressor, aiming to land an Abolisher/Salvagers as quickly as possible via Cavern of Souls and kill them.  

SB out: Hurkyl's Recall, Engineered Explosives, AEther Spellbomb
SB in: Mindbreak Trap, Flusterstorm, Tormod's Crypt

Fast Salvager is the most threatening play they can produce so it's good to have a few options for weathering it, but do not go overboard as Bomberman has many other tricks for which one needs to be prepared.  Vendilion Clique is a rascal.  If Karakas is in your sideboard, side it in.  Jace is their main method of locking down the game but here, when opponent taps out to play Jace, that is actually a great opportunity to go for the throat with Salvagers, Vault Key, or Yawgmoth's Will.  For Blue Angels, sideboard in Llawan, Cephalid Empress as the majority of their value creatures become unplayable.  Matt Murray's new UW Zardoz list is a nightmare due to the Sowers of Temptation and this is one reason Vault Key was recently included.  If that deck becomes prevalent, more drastic sideboarding measures could be taken.

Tournament Report
Saturday April 5, 2014
The Players Guild
Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania
Place: First

Swiss

Round 1 Vito on Deathrite Gush
Win 2-0

Game 1, He tutored for Fastbond which ran into Mental Misstep and then I Trinketed up a Nihil Spellbomb.  I had Ancestral in my opening hand, and quickly drew into Auriok Salvagers combo.  

Game 2, I had Cavern Lotus and Notion Thiefed his turn 2 Gush.  He topdecked Ancestral Recall while the Thief was in play.  

Round 2 Frank on Dredge
Loss 1-2

Game 1, he exiled a lot of his library to Serum Powders but managed to find the exact amount of creatures to Dread Return Flame-Kin the turn before I untapped and killed him with Salvager.

Game 2, I Nihil Spellbombed him twice.  He Chain of Vapored my Salvager in response to its ability which I let resolve.  I then replayed the Lotus and cast Yawgmoth's Will and we went to game 3.

Game 3, I had to mull to 5 due to no land.  I kept topdecking Crypts and Spellbombs keeping me in the game against all odds, and we reached a game state where all of his Therapies and Bloodghasts were exiled, he had 1 Token, a Narco, and an Ichord in play and I flashed in a Snapcaster to block, needing just one turn to stabilize.  He tapped Bazaar with no cards in hand needing to find a Bridge in the top two cards, he found the Bridge, and it got there.    

Round 3 Jon on Merfolk
Win 2-1

Game 1, I resolved Magus of the Future early in the game and it went wild.  

Game 2, I led with Pearl, Cavern, Abolisher which resolved and on my next turn I played Tundra, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, daring him to Null Rod it or lose.  He had the Rod, but I had Disenchant & Steel Sabotage in hand.  He Wasted the Tundra and the Pearl was shut off, but all I needed was to draw a fetch or Noble Hierarch to destroy/bounce the Rod without possibility for response (due to Abolisher) and then use the Pearl to untap the Vault.  My next 4 draws were non-land including a Sapphire and the 4th was Black Lotus.  By that time, he had Silvergills and Lords.  The card underneath Lotus turned out to be Flooded Strand.

Game 3, I played Top, he countered it.  He played a Null Rod.  I Disenchanted it.  He played a Merfolk Rejeery. He was down to 2 cards in hand and I played Salvager, recurred Lotus, and he harcast Force on the Lotus and then Dismembered Auriok on his turn. Suddenly, due to an untimely Lord of Atlantis pumping 2 Rejeerys, I was down to 4 life with only a Trinket Mage and 4 mana on board and they called time.  Fortunately however, my hand itself was stacked.  On T1, I played Demonic Tutor for Time Walk and laid a land, played Walk, and attacked with the Trinket Mage.  On T2, I drew another land, played it, played Grand Abolisher (who was needed solely for Grizzly bear purposes), and then Snapcaster Mage targeting Time Walk, and played that, attacking for 2 again.  On T3, I played Yawgmoth's Will but Time Walk was exiled.  So I did what any dedicated Merfolk hater would by replaying Black Lotus, casting Demonic Tutor for Llawan, Cephalid Empress, playing her, and using the remaining 1 mana to replay Top.  I attacked with the team and shipped the turn back to him.  His topdeck was Force of Will, so on T5 he had no blockers when I attacked for the exact amount of damage to be lethal.  That was a good game.

Round 4 Keith on Oath of Druids
Win 2-1

Game 1, I Flusterstormed his Demonic Tutor but nevertheless, he followed up with Orchard, Oath.  Scoop.

Game 2, I led with, Mox, Mox, Lotus, Land, Salvager (w. Trinket Mage in hand), which he Forced.  He played an Oath, so I Trinketed up Grafdigger's Cage.  He was taking Spirit beats and Trinket Mage beats and played Show and Tell with 2 mana open.  I played a Snapcaster Mage to increase Storm count to 3 and Flustered the Show and Tell, then attacked for a lot.

Game 3, he had many Oath of Druids but no Orchard.  I opened with Library of Alexandria.  He Brainstormed and played an early Yawgmoth's Will with only a Brainstorm and 2 fetches in the graveyard, but I Flusterstormed it.  I played Merchant Scroll for Gifts Ungiven.  I baited a Mana Drain with an EoT Gifts, he Drained it, and I played Jace on my turn.  I fatesealed him seeing another Oath of Druids and let him keep.  He played Jace on his turn which I Forced.  I won soon after.

Round 5 Matt on Zardoz
ID

Top 8

Round 1 Matt on Zardoz

Matt surprised me by asking for a prize split.  The last time we split prizes, I won the event and he said he believed it would happen again today.  I agreed and we played out match for fun.  I won g1 with broken spells and then g2 he stole my Grand Abolisher with a Sower of Temptation whose ability prevented me from killing it on his next turn.  g3, He had Lotus Jace.  By now, Matt has stolen every marquis creature in this deck except Snapcaster Mage.  He's stolen Auriok (and comboed out with it on the spot w. Lotus/EE/Top ... !?), Magus of the Future (devastating), Grand Abolisher, Trinket Mage, Dark Confidant, Notion Thief, and he even stole Noble Hierarch once which surprisingly decimated my early board state.  He declared it a personal goal to steal every one of the creatures I run, so I'll be keeping a close eye on the Snapcaster...

Round 2 Ryan on Snapcaster Tezzeret Control
Win 2-1

Game 1, he resolved an early Ancestral and then Snapcaster Mage targeting Ancestral.  Still the game went on forever as I resolved an emergency Yawgmoth's Will to recover a fetchland, AEther Spellbomb, and Nihil Spellbomb.  I got flooded after that but there was little action on his side, likely because instead of greedily cracking the Spellbombs to draw cards, I let them sit there for 7-8 turns (true test of patience) to deter his broken plays.  He played a Key and I played EE on 1, using Library for additional colorless so that it couldn't be Mental Misstepped.  Eventually he started using Key Top so I popped EE and the Spellbombs.  I topdecked Hurkyl's Recall and said "not what I want right now."  I wanted to see a Salvagers because they would win on the spot but they were hiding.  On his next turn he played Tez and sought out Time Vault, so the Hurkyl's had utility.  Unfortunately, it was Drained.

Game 2 led to a fascinating bizarre board state where we both had Vault + Key in play but neither of us could use it because the person who activates it last takes all the turns.  How did that happen?  He led with Voltaic Key which I considered Misstepping but I let it resolve.  We played draw-go for a while until he played Ancestral Recall.  At the end of his turn, I played my Ancestral; he responded with his; I responded with Notion Thief; he cast Brainstorm; I Mental Misstepped it and then drew 6 cards, untapped and soon assembled Vault/Key, leaving only {U} open with Steel Sabotage in hand.  He had 3 cards in hand and I suspected was sandbagging Vault.  If I untapped my Vault with my remaining blue mana then, I would be vulnerable to a bounce/destroy effect on his part and unable to interact if he cast his own Vault the following turn.  So I exercised patience and passed.  It turns out he did have the Vault, but he could not use it.  On my turn, I Steel Sabotaged his Vault, untapped mine and won.

Game 3, I had Alexandria on the draw.  We had a major counter battle that I won but ended up bringing me down to 4 cards.  On my turn, I untapped and drew Tinker, played one of the Vault/Key combo pieces and then Mana Crypt, Tinkering it into the other piece.

Finals Vito again on Deathrite Gush
Win 2-0

He was on the play both times and led with Library both times.  My hand was Mox, Land, Cavern, Mana Crypt, Salvager, Abolisher, Misstep so I played Salvager.  I Misstepped one of his threats.  Eventually I drew into an uncounterable Magus of the Future with a Trinket Mage revealed on top of Library and so I got the Lotus.  I had infinite mana and there was a land on top of library but an uncracked Polluted Delta.  I cracked it revealing Snapcaster whose only target was a Misstep in yard (v. an active Shaman). However, since it was free, I played it and underneath were Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, and Time Vault.  I had another Snapcaster in hand for any interferences.  "Wow, Magus of the Future is really annoying with infinite mana," he stated.

Game 2, he led with Library.  I played fetchland, pass.  He played Deathrite which I Misstepped; when someone is riding high on Library, the best trump is to prevent their mana base from expanding.  On my Turn I played land, Time Vault, pass.  He played another Deathrite I believe which resolved.  On Turn 3, I played another land and Voltaic Key with UU available, Flusterstorm and Misstep in hand and won.  
 
It was another good time at the Player's Guild and was great seeing everyone again.  Hopefully the above can shed some light on how the deck works for anyone interested in giving it a try.

-Brian
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 02:29:23 pm by brianpk80 » Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
msg67183
Basic User
**
Posts: 929



View Profile Email
« Reply #126 on: April 08, 2014, 06:19:07 pm »

Great Report Brian! Maybe we can finally play in a tournament soon!!! Maybe I can get a top 8 soon too!
Logged

Bloomsburg Tournaments:

1 Win
3 Finals
2 Top 4
2 Top 8

Outside Bloomsburg:

Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4

Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League.

Website for The League:

http://tmdvl.github.io

Zombies ate your brains!
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2014, 08:09:36 pm »

Great Report Brian! Maybe we can finally play in a tournament soon!!! Maybe I can get a top 8 soon too!

Thank you.  I hope you do make T8 as well because your skill with Merfolk has been improving very much.  It would be well earned.   
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
rpf5029
Basic User
**
Posts: 285



View Profile Email
« Reply #128 on: April 08, 2014, 08:39:01 pm »

Hi Brian!  I liked the write up, but I have two things to contest about our match.  First, I had Ancestral naturally when you baited me out with yours.  That's a minor detail, however.

Second, I believe our bizarre Time Vault game state was G2, directly after the Notion Thief shenanigans.  i believe that you just beat me the third game fair and square, but that it was nowhere near as memorable as game 1 and ame 2.  This could be wrong, however.
Logged

Ryan Fisher

PSU MAGIC
"He knows the name of every Elf born in the last four centuries.  More importantly, they know his."  -- Elvish Archdruid
boggyb
Basic User
**
Posts: 462



View Profile
« Reply #129 on: April 08, 2014, 10:22:53 pm »

Congratulations, Brian!

And thank you for all your hard work developing this innovative deck. Very exciting every time the known object space expands.
Logged
fsecco
Basic User
**
Posts: 560



View Profile Email
« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2014, 01:25:35 am »

Future Sight is probably my favorite card of all time. I love that you're making it viable in Vintage, so I WILL play this deck in the near future. Love it!
Logged
StanleyAugust
Basic User
**
Posts: 279


View Profile Email
« Reply #131 on: April 09, 2014, 01:33:11 am »

I'm glad you guys have finally taken my advice and can finally see the the importance of Crage maindeck, since I've been advocating it a long time. In my opinion, there's no doubt that the Cage Humans archetype that I've been promoting is the way to go forward.
Logged
tribet
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 609



View Profile Email
« Reply #132 on: April 09, 2014, 03:44:27 am »

Brian,

It was worth the read. Oh... and thanks for that one:
3. Another way to draw your library with infinite mana but without Spellbomb is to have Engineered Explosives and Sensei's Divining Top in play or graveyard.  You play Top and Explosives for 1, draw with Top and in response, crack the EE, sending both to the graveyard and netting you +1 card.  You then recur both the Top and the Explosives, rinse, wash, repeat.

I never came across that particular situation but I will for sure make good use of it!


Also, I think you don't mention that Salvagers laugh at Grafdigger's Cage which is widely used nowdays due to versatility. For that reason, I've been working on a simpler Salvagers' Oath list since Xmas.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 03:53:58 am by tribet » Logged
Guli
Basic User
**
Posts: 1763


View Profile
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2014, 05:13:06 am »

Thanks for your beautiful contribution Brian (again). I like how this thread can be seemingly 'dead' for a while but in reality we are testing and tuning to prepare for another fight to get a top 8 somewhere Smile Always nice to share these experiences and great insights to make it a very enjoyable read.


I agree re: Path over StP.

How have you found Karakas? When do you board it in (besides Oath)?
Brian pointed this out in his primer I think, in some match ups an extra land is always welcome (shop, landstill, ...) and Karakas is a hard counter to any legendary cards Oath can play. I also like Karakas against other Thalia decks or Workshop with Karn. The main argument to add Karakas or Tormod's Crypt is Demonic Tutor. When you have 2 mana and you need a 0cc answer!


I'm glad you guys have finally taken my advice and can finally see the the importance of Crage maindeck, since I've been advocating it a long time. In my opinion, there's no doubt that the Cage Humans archetype that I've been promoting is the way to go forward.
Yes Cage was added, and I did think of you when I was debating whether I was going to add it main deck or not. I was looking for a way to support my tempo plan against the dangerous blue, combo, oath match ups. Missteps are great, Thalia is great, Duress was also so strong early game. I eventually picked Cage in addition, to cover for Tinker and Forgemaster (I knew about the Workshop decks that ran Blightsteel) problem. It also allowed me to have a very small anti dredge sideboard, so I could really boost up the Workshop hate.
Logged

serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1359

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2014, 11:00:50 am »

Brian have you ever considered



OR



as a 1 of to make the Magus of Future/Divining Top combo complete?  Allowing you to draw your entire deck for free etc.

I used to run Future Site, Helm, and Top in my keeper deck YEARS ago and was just wondering if you think its still a good idea or not?
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2014, 02:35:40 pm »

Thank you to everyone for the comments.

Second, I believe our bizarre Time Vault game state was G2, directly after the Notion Thief shenanigans.  i believe that you just beat me the third game fair and square, but that it was nowhere near as memorable as game 1 and ame 2.  This could be wrong, however.

Fixed.  In my senility, I conflated the games because they both involved Vault/Key.  Oh to be young again.   Smile

Quote from: serracollector
Brian have you ever considered [Helm of Awakening] OR [Etherium Sculptor]?

Serra, I tested Etherium Sculptors and they were only good with Magus (making them win-more) and against Shop.  In other matches, they just didn't do enough on their own.  Good catch though.  

Quote from: tribet
Also, I think you don't mention that Salvagers laugh at Grafdigger's Cage which is widely used nowdays due to versatility. For that reason, I've been working on a simpler Salvagers' Oath list since Xmas.

Excellent call!
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
TheWhiteDragon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1644


ericdm69@hotmail.com MrMiller2033 ericdm696969
View Profile WWW
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2014, 03:59:50 pm »

In discussing NT, someone mentioned crashing it through a standstill off a cavern...but how does that work to your advantage?  You cast thief, they sac standstill and draw 3, thief resolves.  So you don't get to steal their 3.
Logged

"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
fsecco
Basic User
**
Posts: 560



View Profile Email
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2014, 04:23:05 pm »

If works only if you play Notion Thief in response to Standstill. Wink
Logged
Samoht
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1392


Team RST


View Profile Email
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2014, 04:25:04 pm »

If works only if you play Notion Thief in response to Standstill. Wink

QFT, I meant in response to Standstill being cast not it being in play. I agree I wasn't clear about the distinction in the post. Sorry about that. Will try to be more explicit in the future.
Logged

Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller

I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.

The best part of believe is the lie
tribet
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 609



View Profile Email
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2014, 05:10:39 pm »

Quote from: tribet
Also, I think you don't mention that Salvagers laugh at Grafdigger's Cage which is widely used nowdays due to versatility. For that reason, I've been working on a simpler Salvagers' Oath list since Xmas.

Excellent call!

and... also, I think you don't mention that Salvagers laugh at Deathrite Shaman which is widely used nowdays due to versatility. For that reason, ....  Very Happy
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2014, 07:21:53 pm »

and... also, I think you don't mention that Salvagers laugh at Deathrite Shaman which is widely used nowdays due to versatility. For that reason, ....  Very Happy

Salvagers Oath is an excellent deck choice because the Oath positions you well against creatures & Shops and the Salvagers + Cavern give you the advantage in the Oath mirror. 
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #141 on: April 10, 2014, 06:26:50 am »

Great explanation of the deck and great report Brian! I build and piloted http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12748&iddeck=93496 last month but in 4 rounds just managed a draw and 3 loses, due to my lack of skill, specially getting my manabase.

Briefly:
round 1, UB rats: in first match, confidant does me > 15 damage (two aurioks and a fow for sure) and kills me. in second match he discards and wastes me until I can't do anything, i was pretty mana screwed

round 2, uw landstill: i manage to combo in first one, in the other batterskull wins the game, and we go to turns when he was going to win.

round 3 and 4: Bug, with null rods. my manabase gets screwed around, i cannot play aurioks and tarmos eat me.

Playing in a field filled with bug and mud, is this deck a good option? maybe it's just me, I play once a month and never had played this deck before.
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #142 on: April 10, 2014, 02:55:27 pm »

Great explanation of the deck and great report Brian! I build and piloted http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12748&iddeck=93496 last month but in 4 rounds just managed a draw and 3 loses, due to my lack of skill, specially getting my manabase.

Playing in a field filled with bug and mud, is this deck a good option? maybe it's just me, I play once a month and never had played this deck before.

That Esper list is very different from the one here.  The deck above is as fine as any other blue deck against Shop, meaning the coin flip is going to be as big a factor as anything.  Vault + Key helps there.  On the other hand, Vault + Key isn't as great against BUG Fish because they're so overprepared for it.  I would board it out.  The only powerful cards in BUG this deck cares about are Null Rod, Dark Confidant, and Wasteland.  Everything else is just noise.
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #143 on: April 10, 2014, 04:22:05 pm »

I assume that you don't include tarmo as a problem because without null rod you have some ways to get rid of it, or win even with tarmo in play. It seems a good plan to play to win, and not play to avoid losing.
Logged
brianpk80
2015 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1333



View Profile
« Reply #144 on: April 10, 2014, 05:08:32 pm »

I assume that you don't include tarmo as a problem because without null rod you have some ways to get rid of it, or win even with tarmo in play. It seems a good plan to play to win, and not play to avoid losing.

Yes.  Opponents playing Tarmogoyf and Batterskull against this deck are just giving it free Time Walks. 
Logged

"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
Stormanimagus
Basic User
**
Posts: 1290


maestrosmith55
View Profile WWW
« Reply #145 on: April 12, 2014, 02:13:00 pm »

I haven't posted on TMD in a long while, but this Mana Confluence card has me sorta interested in the 5C Humans archetype again. Shall I take a stab at a list? I think I shall Smile. This list is very much inspired by Guli's most recent tourney list. I also incorporated a single copy of Godsend in the Sideboard as a potential answer to BSC and other Shops Fatties that are hard to deal with.

Humans 2014

Lands (18):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City Of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze Of Ith

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Ajani, Caller Of The Pride

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mayor Of Avabruck
2 Notion Thief
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Instants (8):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mental Misstep
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor


Sideboard
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Rest In Peace
1 War Priest Of Thune
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Stony Silence
1 Godsend
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
2 Abrupt Decay

I am very much out of the loop with what is good in Vintage so maybe some folks can help me tune this list for the current environment. Is Mayor just flat out a bad card now? I've noticed that no one is using him in these lists. I always thought he was one of your best cards vs. Espresso Shops. Thoughts?

-Storm
Logged

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."

—Ursula K. Leguin
Guli
Basic User
**
Posts: 1763


View Profile
« Reply #146 on: April 12, 2014, 03:07:09 pm »

Hi Storm! Nice to hear from you.

Always happy to see Mayor! I didn't use him in my last event because the Workshop decks I expected were combo Forgemaster. But If I knew these people would switch to a more controlling Workshop build, Mayor could be a viable answer.

You also don't want to miss too many land drops in too many games. You could use more lands.

What I want to re-explore is Meddling Mage, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Surgical Extraction and probably Phyrexian Revoker. AmbivalentDuck and me were working on a very interesting list a long time ago, when I first starting started using Cavern of Souls. My idea was to replace Gitaxian Probe with Surgical Extraction to not only see hand, but also gain knowledge of the deck and then name critical cards with Meddling Mage and then copy them with Image. An example line was to wasteland an important color (Underground Sea, Tropical, Tundra, ...) and then Surgical it followed by a Meddling Mage naming outs. Surgical is not so innocent in this scenario, because it strengthens the 'cut off the outs' plan.

With the new Triad Rainbow mana base I would probably think about adding Jitte alongside Batterskull if you want Stoneforge as the life gainer. And I would supplement the mana base with at least 1 Karakas and most likely other lands too depending on the rest of the deck. Stoneforge doesn't have to be the 'life gainer', there are other options.


Another idea that I have is Leonin Arbiter, some Ghost Quarter and Chaos Warp (for Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon).

« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 03:09:43 pm by Guli » Logged

xouman
Basic User
**
Posts: 1082


View Profile Email
« Reply #147 on: April 12, 2014, 03:40:34 pm »

One human I'm eager to see in those 5c lists is avalanche riders. 4 mana is not easy, but an uncounterable stony rain with haste is nice (for example it can kill a jace just after it bounced a creature). Maniac vandal can be even as good, killing moxen since you are not playing stony silence or revokers

i'm not a fan of stoneforge here. Mayor feels better in the aggro role. Or even instigator gang. Ah, I was forgetting about life loss, between confidants and lands... maybe batterskull is really needed.

Maze of ith seems a bit weird. better that human that exiles creatures when ETB?

Overall a well built list, as long as you don't have to face burn delvers or something with bolts.
Logged
Stormanimagus
Basic User
**
Posts: 1290


maestrosmith55
View Profile WWW
« Reply #148 on: April 12, 2014, 03:40:39 pm »

Hi Storm! Nice to hear from you.

Always happy to see Mayor! I didn't use him in my last event because the Workshop decks I expected were combo Forgemaster. But If I knew these people would switch to a more controlling Workshop build, Mayor could be a viable answer.

You also don't want to miss too many land drops in too many games. You could use more lands.

What I want to re-explore is Meddling Mage, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Surgical Extraction and probably Phyrexian Revoker. AmbivalentDuck and me were working on a very interesting list a long time ago, when I first starting started using Cavern of Souls. My idea was to replace Gitaxian Probe with Surgical Extraction to not only see hand, but also gain knowledge of the deck and then name critical cards with Meddling Mage and then copy them with Image. An example line was to wasteland an important color (Underground Sea, Tropical, Tundra, ...) and then Surgical it followed by a Meddling Mage naming outs. Surgical is not so innocent in this scenario, because it strengthens the 'cut off the outs' plan.

With the new Triad Rainbow mana base I would probably think about adding Jitte alongside Batterskull if you want Stoneforge as the life gainer. And I would supplement the mana base with at least 1 Karakas and most likely other lands too depending on the rest of the deck. Stoneforge doesn't have to be the 'life gainer', there are other options.


Another idea that I have is Leonin Arbiter, some Ghost Quarter and Chaos Warp (for Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon).



Awesome! Thanks for the insight Smile. Yeah, I think Mayor could be a little off right now for what is needed in the meta. What are your thoughts on Ajani? I like the fact that you can tutor for him in a pinch and that he combos with Exava nicely. Is he too much a 'win-more' card? I like your surgical plan. I thought about that in my old Noble Fish lists alongside Meddling Mage so I'm definitely in favor of that plan.

-Storm
Logged

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."

—Ursula K. Leguin
Stormanimagus
Basic User
**
Posts: 1290


maestrosmith55
View Profile WWW
« Reply #149 on: April 12, 2014, 06:12:51 pm »

Ok Guli!

I see your challenge to make a surgical extraction deck and I raise you a list! Smile It's funny that this list actually seems to be in the Noble Fish Shell!

Noble Nemesis

Land (18):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Batterskull

Enchantments (2):
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth

Creatures (23):
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Meddling Mage
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Phantasmal Image
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique

Instants (11):
4 Force Of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Surgical Extraction

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Rest In Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trygon Predator

Logged

"To light a candle is to cast a shadow. . ."

—Ursula K. Leguin
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 14
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 2.567 seconds with 20 queries.