Human Ingenuity

[vaughnbros]

I'm not sure how this list is any different from your previous one.  Since you are so insistent on it being a great deck, I did go through testing it, and was pretty thoroughly unimpressed.  Other than the few hands that had turn 1 or 2 draw 7's or turn 1 thalia turn 2/3 golem, I felt pretty much helpless against most opponents.  The curve is still astronomically high for a deck with no accelerators other than artifact mana, and no significant early game disruption, and as such every time it falls behind in a game its nearly impossible to get back into it.  It has literally no way of stopping tinker->bsc, or oath other than a 3-of Thoughtseize, until post board, making those match ups instantly awful.  Even things as simple as resto angels+cliques from blue angels seemed almost impossible to beat as it has no way of dealing with a flying creature, and it doesn't have the clock to consistently race a fleet of 3 power creatures.  The only deck it played well against were other creature heavy decks.  Its caught in between two decks, human storm and a RW prison, and it was pretty obvious after a few games that these two strategies don't work well together.

[Guli]

I'm not sure how this list is any different from your previous one.  Since you are so insistent on it being a great deck, I did go through testing it, and was pretty thoroughly unimpressed.  Other than the few hands that had turn 1 or 2 draw 7's or turn 1 thalia turn 2/3 golem, I felt pretty much helpless against most opponents.  The curve is still astronomically high for a deck with no accelerators other than artifact mana, and no significant early game disruption, and as such every time it falls behind in a game its nearly impossible to get back into it.  It has literally no way of stopping tinker->bsc, or oath other than a 3-of Thoughtseize, until post board, making those match ups instantly awful.  Even things as simple as resto angels+cliques from blue angels seemed almost impossible to beat as it has no way of dealing with a flying creature, and it doesn't have the clock to consistently race a fleet of 3 power creatures.  The only deck it played well against were other creature heavy decks.  Its caught in between two decks, human storm and a RW prison, and it was pretty obvious after a few games that these two strategies don't work well together.

When this deck goes agrro-prison, you build up your hand size and let them deal with your threats. You don't need to cast all your spells at that time, just build up your mana base and let Thalia/Golem/Port/Revoker/Wasteland do its thing. It takes time for the opponent to get out of that lock, meanwhile you should get enough mana and cards to hit them with more pressure cards or you go for the alternative combo plan. It is not about being able to play out are your cards out as fast as possible. It is about high pressure early on, switching roles when the opportunity arises and creating massive amounts of card advantage with unique interactions. There is a 'reverse synergi' going on in this deck. Yes everything costs a lot with your own spheres, but then again there is enough acceleration to pay for the tax effects and the opponent can not easily counter your bombs because of the tax effects. It is not easy to clarify this for me honestly. The only mana issue I had so far is the double red of Flamespeaker. Sometimes you don't get a city or mana confluence and have to wait for it. This could be a point that needs to be worked on. I was thinking on adding a Petal, Opal and maybe even Simian Spirit Guides to increase the acceleration while having more access to red mana.

About the problem of blue angels, that deck is not in my meta, but I would love to hear your suggestions how to solve the issue. I do play against it on occasion when I test online, but I am perfectly capable of winning matches against the deck with the current configuration. Especially if they never get a chance to develop their board, they are stuck with high casting cost cards like Restoration Angel, Fact or Fiction and so on.

This deck is not about waiting around and try to solve and catch every situation. It attempts to put the opponent in that spot actually. But I agree that something could be changed to put the deck in a better spot against Tinker and Oath. I was thinking on that 1 mana sorcery bouncer that was recently spoiled. A cheap way to generate tempo and answer anything on the board that might be problematic. I also don't think this deck gives the opponent that much time so I well timed tempo play usually seals the deal. Also possible is Chain of Vapor with other nasty idea's I am working on.

My regards

[MTGFan]

This deck is just being pulled in too many different directions and it is diluting the power of the core of the Humans.

I'd stick with Mayor-based strategies that try to develop a strong board state and exploit synergies between Humans.

[Guli]

I would say the power of Humans is the ability to go into many different directions.

[Varal]

I find it way harder to play against Humans when you're not sure if they have counterspells, Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus, Oath of Druids transformational sideboard, etc. I'm always uneasy to play against Humans because it could be anything. A line that could be could against one version can be terrible against another one. One of the advantage of playing Rogue is that your opponents will tend to make more mistakes because of a lack of knowledge of your deck and how to play against it.

[vaughnbros]

I would say the power of Humans is the ability to go into many different directions.

Agreed Humans are a very flexible creature type because most of them have powerful abilities on top of efficient bodies.

The problem with your current list is that you are sacrificing that flexibility by playing inflexible cards along side them, namely Lodestone golem and draw 7's.  While these cards synergize well with specific humans, thalia and notion thief respectively, they create dsynergy with each other and do not synergize well with many of the other cards in the deck.  This is almost the complete opposite of what you want from the top of your curve, since its a spot usually reserved for a card that you always want to play as soon as possible.

You don't need to cast all your spells at that time, just build up your mana base and let Thalia/Golem/Port/Revoker/Wasteland do its thing. It takes time for the opponent to get out of that lock

The problem here is that the lock takes too long to set up because you lack acceleration outside of moxen, and since you have no answers to resolved threats if your opponent can even squeak one spell through you are in trouble.

The only mana issue I had so far is the double red of Flamespeaker. Sometimes you don't get a city or mana confluence and have to wait for it. This could be a point that needs to be worked on.

You are running 29 mana sources, with the top end of your curve at 4.  How are you not getting flooded like crazy?

[Guli]

I would say the power of Humans is the ability to go into many different directions.

Agreed Humans are a very flexible creature type because most of them have powerful abilities on top of efficient bodies.

The problem with your current list is that you are sacrificing that flexibility by playing inflexible cards along side them, namely Lodestone golem and draw 7's.  While these cards synergize well with specific humans, thalia and notion thief respectively, they create dsynergy with each other and do not synergize well with many of the other cards in the deck.  This is almost the complete opposite of what you want from the top of your curve, since its a spot usually reserved for a card that you always want to play as soon as possible.

You don't need to cast all your spells at that time, just build up your mana base and let Thalia/Golem/Port/Revoker/Wasteland do its thing. It takes time for the opponent to get out of that lock

The problem here is that the lock takes too long to set up because you lack acceleration outside of moxen, and since you have no answers to resolved threats if your opponent can even squeak one spell through you are in trouble.

The only mana issue I had so far is the double red of Flamespeaker. Sometimes you don't get a city or mana confluence and have to wait for it. This could be a point that needs to be worked on.

You are running 29 mana sources, with the top end of your curve at 4.  How are you not getting flooded like crazy?

I flood on all departments, not just lands The deck does not play out the way some posters are perceiving it. Staring blind on a couple sphere effects and draw 7's will not gain any insight. Playing a few games will not gain insight either. I haven't mastered the deck myself, but I see merit.

[Guli]

I am not a combo player, but I can pilot the deck decently. As Brian proved time and again that Humans can also be a combo deck, I decided to give it a try. I am a bit more explosive and aggressive in nature so my combo take on Humans will be like that as well.

I did not want to use a lot of slots to creatures, in fact I only selected 2 Humans that I think belong. The deck can be labeled as Burning Humans or Long Humans, whatever pleases you sir!

What I expect from a combo deck is

That I have tons of mana,
some universal cheap answers (bounce),
Cut off interaction so I can do whatever I want however I want,
Bomb after bomb after bomb in case they try to counter me... 1 of the bombs or gas should resolve and you can keep going.

Grand Abolisher will be the card that will prevent counter magic or other things to hinder the deck. Notion Thief is the human Griselbrand.



Add to that a rainbow mana base I have been talking about for a long time now (and after Mana Confluence I pointed out that City of Brass is not Obsolete, on the contrary)



I like how forbidden Orchard completely hoses opposing Oath players. They can not Oath, they can not respond because of Abolisher, and if they are not carefull, I will be the one Oathing up Notion Thief and play a draw 7. In a deck like this you could not care less if they get a 1/1 token, especially since Grand Abolisher is a 2/2 and that you plan on winning on the first 3 turns.


Here is the list, I do not claim this is the best combo deck out there, my goal is to have some fun and blow off some steam from time to time.


Burning Humans

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault

3 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Mana Confluence
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Regrowth
1 Imperial Seal
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Repeal

3 Grand Abolisher
3 Notion Thief

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Yawgmoth's Will
SB: 1 Time Warp
SB: 1 Balance
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 1 Grand Abolisher
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns

I like how chrome mox can pitch Notion Thief to become an Underground Sea!



I can not offer a lot of insight or advise on how to play it. I also don't really have an idea how the Workshop match up is. So far I have played other combo decks or control combo decks and the deck performs well. It can not be stopped easily and can only be beaten by racing it with your own combo peace, and this does put the opponent in a tight spot. Thanks to Abolisher, hands like 1 Burning Wish, Hurkly's Recall and a bunch of artifact mana can be a quick win. You don't have to worry about Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap.

Obviously you want to set up a draw 7 with Thief if you can, but don't be greedy about this, it is not a must in order to win the game. But obviously if you succeed in doing this, for example eot Thief and untap cast draw 7 with an Abolisher in play, you are going to win that turn due to 14 cards drawn.


Cheers!

[brianpk80]

I like it.  When I first started brewing Humanstorm last year, I had two approaches, one being crazy and 5C with Burning Wish, Prosperity, and Forbidden Orchard and the other resembling a more traditional Esper Bomberman list.  The final result was a merging of the two.  For Shop, I boarded out all Abolishers and all Notion Thieves except 1 so I would say your list is primed against blue at the expense of the Shop match (especially with a Wishboard taking up space for cards that could be Swords, Disenchant, Stoneforge package, or Oath of Druids).  Good luck. 

[xouman]

Interesting approach. I'd probably switch FoF for something more synergistic with Notion (windfall? memory jar? even winds of change). I also would like something to get ride of spirit of the labyrinth.

I'm not sure if this deck is better than burning oath, but of course it has some advantages, as not being dependant on oath. Abolisher is often great, but without gas is poor, and often you don't want the sencond. Similar with Notion, that also has a big CC in order to take maximum profit imho. I don't doubt that Notion + draw7 is game, but how often do you have those 7 mana? Abolisher loses power if you have to pass the turn.

And I'd try to fit a couple of snapcasters. If you are filling the grave so easily, Thiago is always welcome.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This approach basically just subs out 2 grisel, 4 oath for 6 critters.  Vs creature decks, those 6 critters do poorly compared to oath...also weak to shops/dredge.  Burning oath has a plan A and B that synergize while both plans are broken on their own.  This version's plan B is beat down with 6 weenies.  That's weak.  Combo's inherently bad matchups are hatebears and shops, not control, because bears and shops have permanent roadblocks to comboing...not just a one-shot counterspell.  Oath is very good vs both creatures and shops.  That's why burning oath is solid vs an array of decks whereas this seems to go all-in vs blue at the cost of burst vs hatebears, shops, and dredge (a turn 1 oath into a 7/7 lifelinker can really squash dredge fast).

[Guli]

Most Oath also runs counters and removal, I run more gas and more acceleration and my removal is also storm count. This could also be a factor against Workshop. I don't know how the match up is right now. I will have to test it.

[brianpk80]

This card may have a home in Guli's Domri Rade/Dack Fayden list.  It's the first time an Ajani can give lifelink directly which would be relevant on a creature like Notion Thief (becoming 4/2 first strike, vigilance, lifelink, allowing it to attack into an untapped Golem).  The CMC is Vintage playable and easy to pull off w. the usual suspects as accelerants.  When preying on blue, Combo, and Shop, aggro Humans can occasionally have a vulnerability to other aggro-control decks where this new Ajani's +1 and -2 would be huge.  Ajani, Caller of the Pride was a good card but given the less color intensive CMC, this is probably the most Vintage playable Ajani they've printed.  I like it. 

[xouman]

I'm not so sure this Ajani is that good :/

First ability is nice, but needs to have a creature around. Ok, that's quite easy to have, but sometimes this is dead.

Second ability is only good when you are already winning (or should be). I don't like it.

Last ability is nice, but in vintage that's far from winning the game. A swarm of zombies, enough tendrils copies, key + vault, jace activations, pyromancer tokens... And 4 turns after having played Ajani. Of course it has potential, as any Planeswalker, but this one is not among my favourites.


My favourite Ajani was the RW, and still haven't play it in Vintage.

[brianpk80]

I'm not so sure this Ajani is that good :/

My favourite Ajani was the RW, and still haven't play it in Vintage.

All the points made are reasonable.  The reason the card has potential for me is that for the longest time I was trying to figure out how to have access to lifegain in Mayor Fish without including a Stoneforge package.  Despite 20 years of Magic and 10,000+ cards, I was surprised at how difficult it is to find efficient means of gaining massive life in Vintage.  Stoneforge/Tendrils have been the best so far.  I would test this card in the Mayor Fish decks that had Stoneforge since as a singleton or tutor target, it conserves deck space.  The -2 reminds me of Mikaeus which Guli has used successfully and has an interesting interaction with Exava, the Dark Queen of Humans.

[Guli]

Well I would like to run Gaddock Teeg so this is why I am using 3cc planeswalkers. With a casting cost of three you can play it on turn 2. This is fast for some decks, they can't really deal with it. Especially since more and more creatures hit the board and form an infinite wall of blockers.

[serracollector]

Just wondering if this might have merit in humans?  get noble, get 2 cc human, get 3 cc human, get Exava, etc etc?  Just a thought.

[vaughnbros]

It's very expensive in terms of mana and number of turns.  I suppose it's good enough to warrant testing it as a singleton though.

[xouman]

It looks like a non-sacrificing pod, isn't it? Yes, it's expensive, but it's direct CA+tutoring, really powerful. On the other hand it comes *late* (T2 with acceleration) and it's activated a turn later, effectively wasting that turn's mana.From that point is really interesting, but the little initial reward is a pity.

However against mud seems really nice, once you have it in play. You can fetch an accelerant between spheres, chalices and tangles, and follow it with gas. It's a pity that the activation cost is not X instead 2G. It's playable, but I don't think it would actually see play in vintage, or at least be relevant.

[Guli]

I find Yisan cute. Maybe with untap effects and plenty of mana.


I also want to inform all of you 5C Humans fans out there that there are people taking up the deck on MTGO. It has been doing well!

Here is one of those decks (gogo Coopes!)

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/11352

Coopes messaged me and we talked about the deck and he told me the metagame was shop heavy and also delver is popular. So I suggested that he uses the Ingot/Oath main deck and he did!


I hope to gather the cards too in order to compete online as well. It is going to take a while though.

[MTGFan]

I think that sustained dominance by Humans in the online metagame will really lend credibility to this deck and increase its exposure as a serious player in the format.

[Zherbus]

sustained dominance

It happened once.

[Guli]

sustained dominance

It happened once.

It happened twice. There is another 5C Human pilot that got a 4-0. Will probably be posted soon.

And I really am not impressed by your posts lately.

[Zherbus]

Be as unimpressed as you want, the point was that it's not 'sustained dominance' even at two wins over the course of about 30+ daily events.

I personally love with the list Coopes played and have said as much. I think it has credibility, but let's not get carried away here. In fact, if Coopes keeps at it some of his ideas could really make the deck much more agile. In one game where I tinker-colossus'd him out of the game, he immediate thought Stingscourger which is a fantastic option or at least along the lines of the right idea and mindset to be taking it... in my opinion. As unimpressive as it may be.

[Guli]

Be as unimpressed as you want, the point was that it's not 'sustained dominance' even at two wins over the course of about 30+ daily events.

I personally love with the list Coopes played and have said as much. I think it has credibility, but let's not get carried away here. In fact, if Coopes keeps at it some of his ideas could really make the deck much more agile. In one game where I tinker-colossus'd him out of the game, he immediate thought Stingscourger which is a fantastic option or at least along the lines of the right idea and mindset to be taking it... in my opinion. As unimpressive as it may be.

Then pick it up, make a version with Stingscourger, if you want I can share my insights, I used Stingscourger 2 years ago in the initial builds. I would gladly help you to build a 5C Human version that YOU like and feel comfortable with. I promise you that you will 4-0 with the deck.

[Zherbus]

To be fair, I said I love the deck. It's chock full of cool cards. I made an Oath of Ghouls deck 12 years ago on this site because I think it's an awesome card.

That said, I don't think it's the deck for me.

[Coopes]

Big props for Guli on guiding me with his advice up to this point. I appreciate the other kind words Zherbus, I imagine once some players better than myself/with more Vintage experience grab the deck they will have more success online. I've been meaning to record some matches with the deck but I'm still looking for a program to use.

[MTGFan]

Be as unimpressed as you want, the point was that it's not 'sustained dominance' even at two wins over the course of about 30+ daily events.

I personally love with the list Coopes played and have said as much. I think it has credibility, but let's not get carried away here. In fact, if Coopes keeps at it some of his ideas could really make the deck much more agile. In one game where I tinker-colossus'd him out of the game, he immediate thought Stingscourger which is a fantastic option or at least along the lines of the right idea and mindset to be taking it... in my opinion. As unimpressive as it may be.

My "sustained dominance" comment was not in reference to events as they stand *now* but a nod toward the future. More people will be picking up this deck, and *if* this continues a pattern of sustained dominance would lead to more prominence.

[Guli]

To be fair, I said I love the deck. It's chock full of cool cards. I made an Oath of Ghouls deck 12 years ago on this site because I think it's an awesome card.

That said, I don't think it's the deck for me.

That's nice.

The deck has a very competitive goal though, decays, missteps, thalia, bobs, noble, ingot/oath, all the power, tutoring, sensei top, cavern to hose control, wasteland, ... I would not label these cards as merely 'cool', it is a focused deck with a a plan that wins tournaments if used correctly and I am sure if more people pick it up (with good preparation and good understanding of the metagame) the deck will get more 4-0's.

[Coopes]

This is my most recent take on the deck. I have ran it back with moderate success ( 3-1 in the last 3 daily events, with some close losses ). I still think it needs a bit of work, like always, so I figured to post it to this thread and see what some of you guys thought. What changes/adjustments would you recommend?

Screenshot : http://imgur.com/oFduCeV

Maindeck:

4x Cavern of Souls
1x Mana Confluence
1x Wasteland
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Strip Mine

1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus

2x Chalice of the Void
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Batterskull

1x Dack Fayden

1x Ancestrall Recall
1x Time Walk
3x Mental Misstep
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ancient Grudge

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Heirarch
3x Dark Confidant
1x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Trinket Mage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Notion Thief

Sideboard:

1x Wasteland
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Oath of Ghouls
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Dack Fayden
1x Orzhov Pontiff
2x Snuff Out
1x Batterskull
3x Ingot Chewer

edit : 3-1 Tonight in the daily, wish I could of brought home 4-0. Lost my match to RUG 2-1, I made a misplay with trygon predator game 3 and deserved the loss.