Human Ingenuity

[brianpk80]

Congrats on the successes, Coopes.  5C Humans is a wonderful deck. 

[Guli]

After more play testing and exchanging idea's with Coopes, I believe the deck does want a more controlling emphasis. I believe Dack and Top should both be 2x in the deck because they help dig out the relevant peaces of the puzzle and discard or avoid the non relevant stuff or extra land you don't need, moxes (under chalice 0 for example), missteps, extra thalia's, and so on.

We also have been cutting on Wastelands to make the mana better and there isn't that much fetch lands. I also think that the Ingot/Oath plan can go in the sideboard. Yes workshop is still heavily played, but it is not the only match up. This is where we rely on our Dack's game 1. If we have the nut draw and they aren't opening impressive, we can take over the game fast.

With Top and Dack plus the value Humans like Recruiter, Trinket, Huntmaster I don't think playing less than 4 Dark Confidant is a mistake. You still want some in there, they help and are great with Top and Dack. Also we need room for actual threats.

I am glad Coopes is taking up a lot of my advise and is having success with it. I also like how he is influencing me and making me think on the archetype further. All the talk about Chalice in that other thread made me think it over and add it in the deck. Also in Legacy the deck with knight loam punishing fire.dec did get me closer to try/suggest Chalice. Dack is just sick card, and people are slowly catching on in Vintage and I think Legacy will follow.

Dack and Chalice play well with each other, like i said, you can set Chalice at 0 and 1 (keep top in play though unless you really have to) and slowly increase hand quality.

I also think 1 Aegis of the Gods is a nice subtle touch, because sometimes even the combo players with Oath (or without) can start of slowly or be slowed down enough so we can use Recruiter, Dack, Top or Demonic to gain hexproof.

I also changed the fetchland mana base to black one with some blue and red splash. The fetchlands are supporting your non human spells with their target duals, while caverns is there for mana drain, force and chalice to get in your lovely humans. The 2 Delta don't get Taiga, but I think that is ok, since we really want the shuffle effects and feed our Deathrites a bit further.

 
5C Humans

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Confluence

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dack Fayden

2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Notion Thief
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Dark Confidant

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mental Misstep


SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Oath of Ghouls
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 2 Snuff Out
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

This would be the list that I would use on MTGO until further notice.

[serracollector]

With the inclusion of Dack Fayden, could Wonder or Anger be a viable inclusion?  Maybe more for a Flamespeaker Variant, but giving all your guys haste and flying could obviously really help, and increase pressure.  Your manabase easily accepts it, and it would not be hard to get them in grave with 2-4 dacks.  Just a thought.

[Coopes]

With the inclusion of Dack Fayden, could Wonder or Anger be a viable inclusion?  Maybe more for a Flamespeaker Variant, but giving all your guys haste and flying could obviously really help, and increase pressure.  Your manabase easily accepts it, and it would not be hard to get them in grave with 2-4 dacks.  Just a thought.

I have never even considered these cards. ( I had to look up Wonder, to be completely honest with you ). The idea seems nice, but maybe too cute? Not sure.


Took Guli's advice for the changes for a spin in the daily event and got 4-0 tonight, I actually played 61 cards which I have never done, but it seemed to work out alright.

Screenshot of the deck : http://imgur.com/avJ0GTn

[StanleyAugust]

What's the idea behind all the 1-ofs? They seem very random to me.

[serracollector]

yea when i saw dack to be honest my first thought was tools and tubbies and older deck that ran anger wonder and survival to get them. i personally want to make a deck based on goyf and basking rootwalla and dack but i could see it working equally well in humans so thought i would throw the idea out there. givin everything flyin and haste for essentially free card filterin is no joke.

[Coopes]

What's the idea behind all the 1-ofs? They seem very random to me.

Lots of tutor effects, going through the deck effects like top/dack. Each of those singletons has its place in the deck, but I do agree they can look random. Surprisingly, the singletons don't come back to bite you with the inconsistency they can bring to other decks.

yea when i saw dack to be honest my first thought was tools and tubbies and older deck that ran anger wonder and survival to get them. i personally want to make a deck based on goyf and basking rootwalla and dack but i could see it working equally well in humans so thought i would throw the idea out there. givin everything flyin and haste for essentially free card filterin is no joke.

Yeah it does sound interesting, that's for sure.

[Guli]

I don't like the anger or wonder idea that much. This is a 5 color control deck and loves to dig, tutor, draw cards and have strong disruption. Don't get me wrong, haste and flying are abilities I value a lot, but the meta is in such a shape right now that we have to be extremely tight in our selection of cards.

Dack Fayden and Top are what enable this deck to become a nice control deck. People just don't understand a card like Exava in this deck. It is not a beatdown card, it is a control card that could have been Jace, but 5C Humans is a Cavern deck that tries to trumps other cards in the meta with its own powerful card choices.

If anything, I would like to have something like Sylvan Library in this deck, I think it would be very powerful as the 3rd Top effect or 3rd Dark Confidant. Especially with a Batterskull that card is so much value.

Value is nice but you still got to survive in a meta with Fastbond Gush, Lodestone Golem, Tinker, Oath of Druids, early Ancestral Recall, Abrupt Decay/Snapcaster decks, Stp/Snapcaster/Angel decks, Dark Ritual combo decks, plenty of broken and fast stuff going on.

The results Coopes, rangerwayne and yesterday Bahra (a streamer) has been putting up speak for themselves. We do have sufficient counters like Thalia, Chalice, Misstep, Deathrite Shaman and means to find these cards in multiples if we would need them during a game. If I would change anything it would be to make subtle changes to further increase the digging and countering of broken lines of play opponents could fetch up. Sylvan Library, Null Rod/Stony, Scavenging Ooze, Ethersworn Canonist, Flusterstorm, Brainstorm, ... these are the kind of cards I am thinking about right now but the list just seems fine as it is.

If you want to see the 5c Human deck in action with a pilot that did not know anything about the deck, made a lot of play mistakes but still got a very nice 3-1 results with it last night, then go to this link:

http://www.twitch.tv/bahra_/b/545737390

My intend is not to talk bad about Bahra, not at all, I am actually saying he is a very strong player that adapts and learns fast, because it is not that easy to pilot 5c humans with pressure and little to no info about the archetype on beforehand. It shows that the deck is for real, and is strong enough to allow some mistakes. And it also invites a lot of trash talk of people who know nothing about the deck, but we are used to that kind of behavior by now. We patiently try to explain the merits over and over, and funny enough, at the end in round 4, most of the haters got excited about the deck and were cheering for it. That is Humans right there, it triggers skepticism in people and then slowly people sink it in and start seeing the true value and power behind the deck. Priceless.

[MTGFan]

I was just browsing through Gatherer right now looking for cards for my Modern deck and stumbled on this Human from the Time Spiral Timeshifted block (originally from Legends):




Has anyone tested her in these 5 color versions? Or even UWB versions? This effect is very strong. It essentially is a Vedalken Shackles with no restrictions, and if you find a way to untap her (lots of these untap effects now), she can be turned into a repeatable Avatar of Woe. You could kill multiple creatures AND gain control of another with her if you have untap effects.

This type of ability has applications everywhere now that more creatures are being played than ever before in Vintage. People used to play Old Man of the Sea in Vintage and I think this is better.

[Coopes]

http://www.mtgoacademy.com/eternal-warrior-26-human-amusements-at-hourly-rates/

An article about Humans I was sent on twitter. I love how there's so many ways to build this deck. About the above card, 3 colors might be stretching it, even with cavern, for this effect.

[Zherbus]

The thread has lifted the off-topic portions and is now re-opened to discuss the deck itself.

[Guli]

Here is a special feature match between 5c Humans and Human Storm. I am piloting 5C Humans and Brian Kelly is the blue mage. Enjoy!

Note* You will need cockatrice to load the replays


https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8HU5HthbSjhaXpyNWpjR2wycWM&usp=sharing

[fsecco]

5C Humans

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Confluence

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dack Fayden

2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Notion Thief
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Trinket Mage
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Dark Confidant

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mental Misstep


SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Oath of Ghouls
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 2 Snuff Out
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

I played this exact list on a 3 round tournament yesterday, just as a test. Made 2-1 (and 3rd place because of Opp Match), winning against Shops and Grixis control and losing to a BUG Control with Deathrites, Confidants, Trygons and Oozes.

I fear I don't know exactly how to tackle this matchup. I won 1 game but because I had a Thalia first turn, followed by Stoneforge and Shaman. Trygon and Deathrite are very hard to deal, in my opinion... any input?

EDIT: As far as I remember my SB was:
IN
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Snuff Out

OUT
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Dack Fayden
1 Notion Thief
1 Chalice of the Void

[Guli]

I have changed the list to a more Trinket Mage oriented approach and cut the Dark Confidants. However there is a Prohpetic Flamespeaker around to make cards.


Bug is always an attrition war combined with a race. Exava is a big player in this match up because they usually only have 1 out to it, dismember.

We are constantly making changes to stay ahead of the meta, because the meta on mtgo has a habit of changing rapidly so we have to adapt.


In my signature there is usually the most recent list, I try to update it regularly. You should also never side out Dack or Top. These are the core of the deck. Bring in the Huntmasters for BUG!

[Coopes]

I will echo that the trinket mage package has been quite superb, I have cashed every daily I've entered over the past week or so with the updated list Guli and I have been tweaking each week.

http://imgur.com/TN9BUZq

My list is a tiny bit different than Guli's, but the overall idea is exactly the same. I just added a few cards I feel comfortable with and I think will be good for the daily events coming up. I still miss BOB at times, I will say that much, but so far so good.

[Guli]

Since there is less Workshop and more Storm, the list has been updated. I link the list that Coopes got his last 4-0 with in signature.

Dack is doing what I intented it to do, give 5c Humans a lot of range against Workshop and Blue, allowing us to drop the Ingot/Oath plan from sideboard. Also with this much combo around right now, I think it is right that Coopes added Flusterstorms and Mindbreak Traps.

Dack is also a win condition against dredge where you are resetting them multiple times. Just make them draw those last couple of cards in their deck.

There are a lot of options to add if there we detect a more Workshop meta again; Artifact Mutation, Hurkly's Recall, Ancient Grudge, Steel Sabotage, ... For the moment, let's shore up the greedy blue combo match ups.

[Coopes]

Since there is less Workshop and more Storm, the list has been updated. I link the list that Coopes got his last 4-0 with in signature.

Dack is doing what I intented it to do, give 5c Humans a lot of range against Workshop and Blue, allowing us to drop the Ingot/Oath plan from sideboard. Also with this much combo around right now, I think it is right that Coopes added Flusterstorms and Mindbreak Traps.

Dack is also a win condition against dredge where you are resetting them multiple times. Just make them draw those last couple of cards in their deck.

There are a lot of options to add if there we detect a more Workshop meta again; Artifact Mutation, Hurkly's Recall, Ancient Grudge, Steel Sabotage, ... For the moment, let's shore up the greedy blue combo match ups.

Yep, the list in Guli's signature is the one I ran back for 4-0 yesterday. I made a few adjustments before the daily for all the combo/storm. Here's a screenshot of the deck :

http://imgur.com/cCaidnJ

and here's a screenshot of Dack Fayden bringing me some goodies vs workshop in the daily last night :

http://imgur.com/3SFUlSM

[Guli]

I wonder if we could replace ingot with Ancient Grudge's now.

[Coopes]

I wonder if we could replace ingot with Ancient Grudge's now.

I think so. Biggest + for ingots is work around sphere effects and to kill bridges right? probably better to just suite up a grudge with the lack of shops around. I did face one last night, but I think he was the only shops in the daily.

[Guli]

I wonder if we could replace ingot with Ancient Grudge's now.

I think so. Biggest + for ingots is work around sphere effects and to kill bridges right? probably better to just suite up a grudge with the lack of shops around. I did face one last night, but I think he was the only shops in the daily.

I would say that I was mostly trying to use Ingot with Oath of Ghouls. The plan was to have 4 Ingot and 2 Oath of Ghouls post board. Oath was also good against removal. But I believe thath 5c humans evolved to a point that we are way less dead against removal and we don't need the Oath/Ingot plan as badly thanks to Dack.

Something like -2 Ingot and +1 Artifact Mutation and +1 Ancient Grudge can be tried for sideboard. Don't forget that any flashback card is interesting with Dack!

[xouman]

Dack is also a win condition against dredge where you are resetting them multiple times. Just make them draw those last couple of cards in their deck.

Dack's looting ability on dredge COULD be good, but that's quite hard, specially at sorcery speed. Dack feels poor against dredge, at best it can dig for an answer, but I cannot see dack as a win condition agaist dredge.


I like the versatility of the deck. I suppose that fast decks are tough if you don't have early Thalia, but slower decks seem good pairings.

[Guli]

Dack is also a win condition against dredge where you are resetting them multiple times. Just make them draw those last couple of cards in their deck.

Dack's looting ability on dredge COULD be good, but that's quite hard, specially at sorcery speed. Dack feels poor against dredge, at best it can dig for an answer, but I cannot see dack as a win condition agaist dredge.


I like the versatility of the deck. I suppose that fast decks are tough if you don't have early Thalia, but slower decks seem good pairings.

I am not speaking hypothetically, Dack actually did win against dredge by milling them in front of my eyes in a daily (was observing). Traps, Crypts, Nihil Spellbomb combined with Trinket Mages and other dig/tutors mean that they will have to go very deep down their deck to accomplish something, topdecking a Dack offers a win condition at that point in the game and there is nothing much dredge can do about it other than try to get some creature presence in between the resets and be on the beatdown plan.

If this is too sketchy, you can also try the following sideboard which I also like:

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Magus of the Unseen
1 Notion Thief
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Coopes]

I've been pretty busy lately, but I was able to play in a few daily events over the past few days and cashed both with a Mayor variant ( to switch things up and have some fun )

Here's the list I ran back:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/242301#online

I think the pridemages can be cut for something else with this config actually, i dont love them here

[xouman]

I'm still amazed that those manabases are actually succeful, I play less colors and have to be really careful not to have any color cut :p

The list looks amazing, the only card that surprises me is pontiff, but I understand that both effects could win the game in certain circunstances.

Do you have any pairing that you find specially hard?

[Coopes]

I'm still amazed that those manabases are actually succeful, I play less colors and have to be really careful not to have any color cut :p

The list looks amazing, the only card that surprises me is pontiff, but I understand that both effects could win the game in certain circunstances.

Do you have any pairing that you find specially hard?

Yeah, playing 4-5 colors can be sketchy .

My recent losses are to :

Dredge ( that sided into Depths/Stage )
BUG Fish ( out value'd with snap/recall/walk )
and a few random blue decks.

I definitely feel my hardest matchups are vs the broken wins and bug fish getting out card adv/value'd. if i have a solid opener, i can take games off bug fish, but its still tough. id say my matchup is 50/50 vs them.

I feel like the above setup is much better suited at combating a field of creatures and workshops rather than blue decks ( given the mayor, etc ). I do find the mayor version so enjoyable to play though, which is why I've been keeping with it lately even if it might not be 100% ideal for the online meta, it can still work just fine.

I'm wondering if I can work in 2x stoneforge back in and the sword/bskull and jitte in sideboard package to the above deck without diluting the human centric core too much for mayor. I have fiddled around with dropping the pridemages, 1 noble, a land and working the sfm's in but im not sold on the exact setup yet. I also had a friend tell me he didn't like red blast in the deck but it has worked for me so far, maybe it's better as something else.

[Guli]

I think that with a Mayor setup, it is an interesting idea to have a strong couple of cards to answer cards like Staff of Nin, Hellkite and Forgemaster. Something that can be ran main deck without being too much a dead card. 2x Artifact Mutation?

I also think that with the Oath of Druid meta reality, it would be interesting to use Aegis the way we use Thalia. On top I believe Aven Mindcensor is the next peace of the puzzle.  Not as another creature, but to use it as a non human counterspell and to overload them with hate components. You want spheres, hexproof and anti tutor. I also want to see Missteps and a Stony for further survival.

Then you want 6+ mana droks, Nobles and Deathrites. And you want powerfull 4cc (anti decay) spells to sink in your mana and to gain value to compete with snapcaster, dark confidant, trinket mage etc. I like Exava, Huntmaster and Grand August.

Something like this would be my starting point.

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

4 Aegis of the Gods
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

4 Mental Misstep
1 Stony Silence
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Artifact Mutation

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4 Rest in Peace

[Chubby Rain]

While I hesitate to put this here, it is what I consider to be a Brian Kelly deck and that's good enough for me.

Brian Kelly Human Bomberstorm

Creatures:
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Notion Thief
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Trinket Mage

Counters:
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain

Good Stuff:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Rebuild
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts:
5 Moxen
4 SolLotusCryptVault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Memory Jar
1 Nihil Spellbomb

LANDSSSS:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
1 Snow-covered Island

Sideboard:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
2 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Teferi, Mage of Something
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Theory:
Just looking at the deck, it is a hybrid of Humanstorm (which uses Notion Thief as a disruptive element while also incidentally drawing 14 and Mindtwisting the opponent, at which point it becomes pretty easy to storm the opponent out) and Bomberman (Auriok Salvagers + Black Lotus for infinite mana, Nihil Spellbomb/EE+Top to draw deck). The decks share several common elements such as Cavern of Souls on Human, Tinker for Lotus/Jar, and Tendrils, making it pretty easy to combine them. As for why should they be combined, both attack the Delver decks in different ways. Notion Thief is great at shutting down Cruise, Gush, Preordain, etc. though vulnerable to Lightning Bolt and Pyroblast. He is high risk and high reward. Auriok Salvagers on the other hand is very hard for Delver to deal with - requires two Bolts, immune to pyroblast, and with Caverns becomes uncounterable. The combo isn't dependent on spells, which makes the counters Delver runs ineffective. Nihil Spellbomb is also very good right now as it slows down Delvers draw engine while incidentally comboing with Salvagers. I could definitely see playing more in the maindeck and at one point had a deck running 4 of them in the main before my teammates shot down that idea.

Tournament Report:
I have been battling a sinus infection for the past couple of days and basically made it through yesterday on a binge of caffeine and dayquil. Because of this, I really don't remember enough details to provide an accurate tournament report and my notes are quite pathetic. At the end of the day, I finished 6-3 in 31st place, taking home 100 dollars in Card Titan credit.

Props:
Literally everyone I met yesterday as I had a blast.

Slops:
My crappy immune system.

EDIT: Now with 16 more lands. Because the shop matchup was a bit difficult without them.

[enderfall]

BomberStorm looks fun to play in paper. Too bad Salvagers combo is a nightmare on MTGO :/ What takes 5 seconds to show the infinite loop to your opponent in paper, you would be lucky to get one single activation out of Salvagers on MTGO...

[xouman]

Congrats on your success Matt! I just miss the lands in that list :p

Could you do a raw split between your wins? (aggro, auriok+lotus, tendrils, tinker+sphinx)

[Phele]

Congrats too.

I agree that Esper Bomerman with Caverns is in a kind of okay position to fight the Cruise menace. Nihil and Explosives are quite usefull against it and in the same time synergistic with Salvagers. Balance can help sometimes too and Swords to Plowshares is fine as a single removal against Delver as it doesn't fill their graveyard. You could even try out something like Zealous Persecution (even though it doesn't kill a flipped Delver) and Caverns helps to get through your combo and beat parts. Esper filled with enough Trinkets and Salvagers and 2 Spellbombs and 2 Explosives could have some sort of game against the deck but for sure leaves you quite vulnerable against Null Rod, which somehow has to be solved (Spell Snare, Witch or Disenchant/Steel Sabotage maindeck). Another option, which you played in your sideboard too, is the Sphinx, even though it is pretty slow. You could even quite reliable hardcast it in the late game in this deck - beside playing it with Salvagers/Lotus.

Thanks for the input and I am also kind of curious about your landbase. I would guess that you played three Caverns