Human Ingenuity

[Guli]

Storm (Noah) and me also did some testing after I played Brian. According to Storm the only way to fight broken blue is to play main deck Chalice of the Void 4x. I do not entirely agree but I understand his reasoning. In his list of Abzan Humans with Kotr he runs Stony in addition to Chalice.

So my question is: Is Chalice really a must to survive? Or better, is Chalice just too good not to run?

Isn't is possible to run Gorilla Shaman (a card I used yesterday against Brian's list), or Thorn/Glowrider? Not counting Grand August here because it is not an early disruption card. Augsust is a card that prevents the stabilization Brian was talking about.

[serracollector]

Well you must consider the fact that chalice at one can stop quite a few of big blues most powerful spells and more importantly draw and cantrips while not hindering or even effecting our deck. Its not just the mana denial effect of chalice that warrants its inclusion in these style decks its the straight up denial of being able to find answers via Vampiric tutor Mystical Tutor Preordain Brainstorm Ponder and Ancestral. Alongside also stopping swords and bolt two of the decks worst showstoppers.

[Guli]

Misstep Can do that too. You can still answer Moxes after they are cast with Stony, EE, Hammer Mage, Meltdown or Gorilla Shaman. While I acknowledge Chalice's power, I also believe that the card is often just too late to the party and has a low impact on the game state. Not to mention it is so easy to remove with Ingot, Grudge, Repeal, Hurkly's, ... 2/1 and 5/3 is a different clock, your opponent has more time when facing Thalia.

I don't think I like Misstep either. What I do like is to run a lot of mana acceleration , a lot of spheres with a lot of artifact destruction to control Workshop variants. I can see main deck Ingot work out with an Alesha/Reclamation Sage follow up plan. Also filling the grave is nice for Tasigur, a card that is also on my list of cards that I want to run.


I don't know if I can glue together the main deck sphere plan + artifact hate, to achieve a coherent deck that can also stand ground against non blue and non shop decks. Alesha is going to have to do it, as our card advantage engine. Tasigur can help out too.

Thalia, Glowrider & Grand August IV
Alesha & Tasigur
Ingot Chewer & Reclamation Sage
Phantasmal Image

The Image is strong on its own. I believe that with Alesha the card is even more interesting. I also like to copy Glowriders or Sages depending on the match up. With a Tower and Alesha, that Image can be anything they play. This means you can make Image switch roles, it can be a denial piece in the early turns, but with Alesha it can switch to become Blightsteel Colossus when they managed to Tinker through your spheres. It also allows you to keep your 'Value bear' in play while the images copies whatever is relevant in the moment of battle.

You can do the same with Metamorph (which has other benefits as well), but I like cheaper cards. That 1 mana matters in a lot of situations.


So what is better? Running cards like Chalice, Misstep or run more artifacts yourself and get in threats that also disrupt but on top they can actually do damage?

I would also like to fit in a couple of Sin Collector but not sure about that yet.

[serracollector]

So why not consider straight LD dudes like Avalanche Riders or Orcish Farmers or Fulminator Mage? They are even on color and 2 are humans.

[xouman]

Riders & mage are really interesting along thalia and alesha. It's kind of an infinite combo.

Fulminator is probably better because of the lower cost, but I have a crush on riders since long time ago...


I'd go for chalice, at the price of having a shitty CC1 curve. Maybe with trinkets?

Other interesting creatures:

Avenger en-Dal (curves pretty well and alesha can turn it into CA)
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Ethersworn canonist
Banisher Priest

[Guli]

This is what I have so far:

The Spheres:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Glowrider
2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV

The Value:
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Sensei's Divining Top

The Removal:
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Devout Chaplain
1 Orzhov Pontiff

The Mana:
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mana Confluence
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

<The sideboard>
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
4 Containment Priest
2 Sin Collector
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Scavenging Ooze/Yixlid Jailer (interesting because you can recruiter/tower and play it)
2 Dismember

[xouman]

Isn't Ancient Ziggurat strictly better than some lands, unless for the top/alesha's effect? I haven't ever testes it, it's just a honest question.

[serracollector]

Since Alesha cant bring back ingot chewer wouldnt relic warder be better? Also with three pridemage  two reclamation sage seems a lot of artifact removal. Why not drop one of the artifact removal guys for one fulminator mage? The land destruction effect seems really powerful in a list like this.

[Wagner]

You have at least 13 dudes that cost 2 colorless. Wouldn't Sol Ring be good along Crypt here?

[Guli]

Luis M. Augusto made a top 4 finish with 5C Humans in Madrid in a 30 player tournament. That is impressive. Here is the list;

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15885&iddeck=118393


This list goes for consistency and has 4 Sudden Shock + 4 Decay (not counterable) main deck. Interesting right? I like it. It has Exava 3x main as well.

I do wonder how it beats Workshop though... Mayor + Wasteland and Nobles? And win the die roll?

[Guli]

For those who missed it, me and Stormanimagus launched a show called 'Human Ingenuity'. Here is the first episode: #1 Them Humans

We cover Abzan Prison Humans, TPS Mentor and 5C Prison Humans

The 5C Humans with a sphere and artifact destruction theme has a lot of merit. It has potential plays like turn 1 Thalia into turn 2 Glowrider into turn 3 Grand Arbiter August. This results in a triple sphere for the opponent to play around. Next to that it tries to run main deck Ingot and Reclamation Sage to fight toe to toe against Workshop. Thanks to the Wastelands and full acceleration this is possible. You do run Ingot so you can potentially fight Chalice for 0, play your moxes to build a strong mana base and activate the rest of your hand. With this setup you force the Workshop into either having extremely strong opening hands or they just can not go prison on you.

What is the catch then? The problem is when your so called strong plan is delayed because you drew it too late or you are not on the play or just circumstances/bad luck, then you can not really get a hold on the game. So let's talk and think about the blue match up, when does this 'failure of execution' occur?

Your sphere plan will not be effective if you can not stop Moxes. Luckily the plan against Workshop can actually support your sphere plan against blue. But here is the thing, even if you mana to sphere and snipe a couple of mana artifacts, blue decks are so flexible right now. They also have a very fast way to refill their hands with say Recall into Cruise, or a Dig through Time finding a Jace and Walk... the list is long, not even going to bother. In short, blue can sneak in Moxes while it builds up and counters your threats. In a way blue decks are forcing our deck to have a broken hand, or they will just play out those 3 moxes in hand and comfortably work under your spheres. The conclusion here is not hard to see, a sphere plan with artifact removal is not enough at all times, you need additional disruptive elements if you want to win more than 1 games out of 10. So I went on analyzing my games and discovered something key. Actually it was more like an awakening, something so obvious, but had to see it or recognize/remember it. Spheres do not stop board development, they slow it down. And artifact removal basically destroy board development, but since it is all targeted you will only be able to do much. The solution is to use a shotgun as well, and not just a sniper rifle. The shotgun in your deck will be able to do more wide spread damage, hamper multiple board development pieces at the same time. And this is not an option by the way, you need to run:

and  

The Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in your deck will help in the resolution and activation of these cards. Gorilla Shaman is in practice a sphere effect. It acts as an anti-anti-sphere card, we don't like moxes on the opposite side of the table, but we want to still be able to use ours. Gorilla Shaman is also nicely 'on type' as a Shaman. It is a good sub type.

What about Workshop?

Sadly enough the same logic of the blue match up can not be applied against Workshop. Your sphere plan does not really support your plan to keep Workshop in check with artifact removal and Wastelands. One of the problems I faced was that all my removal was sorcery speed and I still got locked out easily with a handful of uncastable. The Tangle Wires are tricky, but can potentially be very good against Workshop. The gorilla's are very strong against Workshop supporting your Wastelands. But the deck needs more. It needs instant speed removal spells. I did not add any to avoid being trumped by Chalice or Missteps. But there is no point in fearing Chalice for 1 here, because that means you can run out your Moxes and evoke your Ingot into play. For this reason Swords to Plowshares is a very good addition to the removal suite. You are also safer against Tinker, high priority targets like Metalworker, Dark Confidant, Monastery Mentor, Tasigur, Lodestone Golem and so on.

With the addition of Swords to Plowshares, Tangle Wire and Gorilla Shaman I think the deck improves a lot against the decks you want to beat. However, these cards are strong in a general sense as well. They can be labeled as universally good.


To give an idea of what the deck looked like you can take the list in the video we made with Stormanimagus as a reference. It is the 5C Human list that we discuss in the end.

Here is a screenshot




The list that I am going to present now has some significant changes. You could call it Shaman Humans. Playing out a turn 1 Deathrite from a Caverns could lead into a turn 1 Gorilla Shaman with that same Caverns and you can snipe moxes. Reclamation Sage and Tasigur also share the Shaman creature Type.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
2 Tangle Wire
3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Glowrider
2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Reclamation Sage

SB: 2 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Skullclamp
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
SB: 1 Tangle Wire

I am trying out Skullclamp as an additional way to generate value and sacrifice outlet.



I await thoughts, critics, comments, suggestions and all that good music.

Guli

[xouman]

I haven't played gorila for one year aprox. It's a card that cam break havoc if unexpected or against an unexperienced player, but its unability to close games makes it quite "uncomplete". Something as thalia, 2/1 with first strike would make it much better. Nevertheless its effect is unique and really useful in a mana denial deck, with the advantage of being asymmetrical.

Tangle wire is another very special card. Similar to thalia, it slows a lot the opponent, also with a "symmetrical effect" that a good build would turn asymmetrical. But 3 mana is a lot, much more with thalias and glowriders. Also it makes artifact destruction relevant. I'm not sure how this tremendous card would adapt to this deck, specially because the mana cost, but I agree that the effect would fit like a glove.

On the other hand, tasigur looks really weird. While it's a great card, you barely fill the graveyard, does not hose anything, and does not get card advantage until the game is quite advanced.


Too much innovation for me, I'll look for your results and videos


PD: as a suggestion, I'll try welder, at least in the sb. shaman+welder is not bad against mud. It's a small engine with sensei. tangle becomes much better. just some ideas

[Guli]

I made a video of a match against Mentor.dec to offer more content on this prison configuration.

I also go over some updates and stay critical towards some card choices I made. The goal is to spark a discussion about these choices and improve the deck further.

5C Humans vs Control Combo Mentor


Enjoy!

[Stormanimagus]

Just so you all know, primer soon to come on my GWB list. It is recently tuned for the meta I expect going forward and now eschews a huge include out of the sb in mother of runes. I will explain in the primer why I cut her and what she's being replaced by. Expect a new thread or article on this deck soon .

-Storm

[xouman]

@Guli: I just saw your match. Great video and great match. I'm surprised you got the game looking at some points of your third match, but I realised how strong can your deck be inthe long run. While I still feel that critters decks lack some kind of bomb (in the form of a quick win, or a even harder lock), tasigur is pretty close to that. Great card in the long game, awesome.

[Stormanimagus]

@Guli: I just saw your match. Great video and great match. I'm surprised you got the game looking at some points of your third match, but I realised how strong can your deck be inthe long run. While I still feel that critters decks lack some kind of bomb (in the form of a quick win, or a even harder lock), tasigur is pretty close to that. Great card in the long game, awesome.

Knight of the Reliquary has a few words to say about your lackage of bomb comment . Not ALL critter decks have this issue.

-Storm

[xouman]

Yeah, reliquary could fall in the same place, as a slow bomb. Still in vintage I have faced reliquary more than once and never was a bomb against me. It was just win more, or I won despite reliquary. I'm not saying it's a bad card because it's pretty good, but tasigur is probably better in my eyes.

Btw I tried tasigur (in bomberman) today and got a bittersweet impression. Good at aggro, decent at getting CA, but fragile to grave and the ability is pretty uncontrollable without hard delve or deathrites. While it takes matches by himself, it's only great in really slow decks filled with counters.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, reliquary could fall in the same place, as a slow bomb. Still in vintage I have faced reliquary more than once and never was a bomb against me. It was just win more, or I won despite reliquary. I'm not saying it's a bad card because it's pretty good, but tasigur is probably better in my eyes.

Btw I tried tasigur (in bomberman) today and got a bittersweet impression. Good at aggro, decent at getting CA, but fragile to grave and the ability is pretty uncontrollable without hard delve or deathrites. While it takes matches by himself, it's only great in really slow decks filled with counters.

I'm about to release a primer on my Knight deck that might change your tune on Knight. Knight is so much more than merely a big body. It is a big body when you need it, a way to make your guys uncounterable when you need it, a crucible of worlds when you need it, a swords to plowshares when you need it, a wrath of god when you need it and much more. Knight is the ultimate swiss army knife for the bargain cost os 1GW. It is not even comparable to Tasigur other than being slotted in for the role of finisher in the respective decks that use these cards. The comparison ends there. I think Knight is a lot more versatile than you realize and it way too often goes under the radar in Vintage. Legacy players know better but perhaps Vintage players will need to feel the hurt a bit more before they wise up to the power of Knight.

-Storm

[StanleyAugust]

I agree on Knight. It's a very good card and very underrated.

[Guli]

By whom actually? I have never heard someone say that Knight is a bad card. People are just into blue, because they feel it is stronger than anything else. For example you can now refill your hand in one turn by using Recall, TC and Snapcaster. This is really sick honestly, and it does not require a lot effort.

It is not like Knight is being discovered here. Everybody knows what it can do. But Gush, Gifts, Mentor, Dig, Dack are now so good at drawing so many things in a short amount of time, you can cantrip through your deck very fast. Even the disruption is now in the form of cantrips, see Nihil Spellbomb, Notion Thief, Dack, Ice/Fire, Repeal,...

So it is fun time for blue mages right now, and I am guessing this conversation about Knight is resolving around this. It is conceivable that people are not really interested or just don't feel comfortable to put themselves in a position where they can not draw a lot, or where they can not outdraw the opponent. Hence they will maybe 'miss' the power of knight, though this is not 'missing' the strength of the card but more about style of play. It is hard to convince someone to go with Knight after they have tasted the blue

You can run Thalia and friends to make Knight playable and strong, but that does not mean Knight is on itself going to be a super broken card. You can basically run a lot if you use Thalia and friends.


I am eager to read into the new primer, it will be fun!

[Guli]

I like how this card can control the board, protect itself with one of its abilities & caybolt proof, and become a monster in race wars.

Also you can run 3-4, it is not legendary and curves out nicely after your early hate cards.

I use sensei top in almost all my decks anyway with a combination or just all of the next cards: recall, walk, full moxes, demonic, vamp, darkblast & loam (enabled by top), duress & thoughtseize, pyroblast, snuff out, stp & path, ...

I can see Exemplars working out better than Tasigur to take up some roles (in decks that do not use a lot blue for Gush, Dack and so on). And this without any further mana investments or a requirement to fill the grave. Also doesn't get randomly bounced by Karakas. The card just has so many abilities and I really like it that it is not 3cc but 4cc because of Abrupt Decay. I also like how this has a prowess ability and actually offers you 3 relevant choices instead of just +1/+1 for more damage. I prefer to gain utility anyway.

[xouman]

This card wants the same as monastery mentor: noncreature spells. Without them it's a 4/4 for  , nothing special at all. With several non creature spells, for example

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
2 Tangle Wire
3 Swords to Plowshares


We can expect a trigger every 4 turns, and usually at sorcery speed so it's more difficult to surprise someone with first strike or save the creature.

In any build where you play more non-creatures and specially more manipulation, mentor should be better. While this creature has advantages (lifelink, first strike, tap other creatures, save itself), mentor provides faster clock, comes into play earlier, and creating other tokens can be even more powerful way of "autoprotection". Also batterskull seems better, also a 4/4 with lifelink without need of playing spells, just for 1 more mana, with vigilance, pseudo autoprotection and the possibility to get bigger if equiped on another creature.

So in my opinion this is not good enough to get serious play...

[Guli]

Obviously I will play more instants with this guy. It turns every instant into a life gain as well, just like Soulfire. This card has everything printed on it guys, this is a bomb trust me. Trick is to figure out what the spells should be in the deck and how many, besides the obvious interaction with Sensei Top. We don't really need more 1cc or 2cc cards to survive as Humans, but we do need some good 3cc and 4cc Humans that can help achieve some board control and be a bomb versus other tempo/aggro decks.

Do not underestimate the ability to tap creatures or to gain life, especially in a 5C Human deck.

[xouman]

I'm not saying this is a bad card. However at first glance it seems to me that it performs a similar role than mentor (finisher without hosing opponent). Of course it has some upsides, best ones that come to my mind are

-Being able to tap griselbrand/BSC and finish opponent.
-Winning life to keep out of tendrils/flying menaces

Mentor should be better racing opponents most of the time even without lifelink, and comes before.

Other creatures that perform a "similar" role in humans

-Exava provides faster clock, but overall is worse. If planeswalkers are really common, maybe it's worth to play again.

-Huntmaster of the Fells is easier to kill (a mere 2/2), but it comes with a 2/2 wolf and 2 life. Once flipped, it provides same clock (besides to the other wolf), plus 2 damage and 2 more if the opponent has creatures. I cannot say which is better, but probably you are not playing enough non-creature spells to trigger Exemplars abilities when you wish, and huntmaster would trigger easier.

[Guli]

The card feels a lot like a planeswalker to me.

[fsecco]

Don't get me wrong, I love Ojutai's 3 abilities and know they're relevant. I just have no idea where are you going to find that many noncreature spells to trigger it consistently. Maybe the tapping-Top-to-draw-during-upkeep trick would help, but that's vulnerable to Misstep.

EDIT: Also, you gotta think how will you ever trigger his 3rd ability for it to be relevant. Deck's got what, 4 instants, all of them conditional?

[xouman]

I'm not writing this in the General Strategy Discussion because someone would ban me for trolling :p

Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
WW
Legendary Creature - Spirit Soldier
Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, bolster 1.
2/2


Not a human, and the effect is nothing spectacular. Does not hate at all, so I don't think it's really playable, but it is interesting and I think it deserves some testing.

[Guli]

Don't get me wrong, I love Ojutai's 3 abilities and know they're relevant. I just have no idea where are you going to find that many noncreature spells to trigger it consistently. Maybe the tapping-Top-to-draw-during-upkeep trick would help, but that's vulnerable to Misstep.

EDIT: Also, you gotta think how will you ever trigger his 3rd ability for it to be relevant. Deck's got what, 4 instants, all of them conditional?

The 5C Human lists that I run have about 22 non creature spells, 19 creatures and 19 lands.

[brianpk80]

Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
WW
Legendary Creature - Spirit Soldier
Whenever another nontoken creature enters the battlefield under your control, bolster 1.
2/2

This is the first disappointment from DTK.  No disruptive ability and not even Human.  Requires something like Cloudstone Curio combo to realize full potential. 

[Guli]

This is the list I am thinking on running this weekend (I was inspired by that Madrid list):

5C Humans 2015 - Tempo/Denial/Aggro

4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Containment Priest
3 Meddling Mage
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Gaddock Teeg

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sudden Shock
1 Dack Fayden
2 Path to Exile

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine

SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Dack Fayden
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 3 Lightning Bolt

I like Path more (over STP) versus Wurmcoil and Griselbrand or Tinker Blightsteel/Sphinx.

During testing I noticed it is interesting to go for a burn plan when the opponent is in red zone. Because of those sudden shocks, the opponent can not prevent a game loss. So that is the reasoning behind Bolts, which will also help out against Workshop and aggro decks.