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Author Topic: Human Ingenuity  (Read 92951 times)
vaughnbros
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« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2014, 02:37:57 pm »

I would try to fit in a couple Riddlesmith (instead of Ponder for example) like Serra suggested, also a Tolarian Academy maybe?

I'm not sure I understand why riddlesmith over a draw engine that actually nets you cards, like dark confidant or Sword of FaI.  Is the artificer creature type really that important?
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2014, 05:11:04 pm »


Why I like this Human Artificer deck:

- It can hate out the two extremes in vintage succesfully; On the one side Workshop (which is a prison deck trying to deny you mana) and on the other side combo decks with fast and broken plays (trying to deny interaction and finish you extremely fast)

- It can also control normal aggro with Stoneforge/Sydri and Strix/Welder

- Vial is also good against control (not just prison)


I can vouch for this.  I was initially skeptical about using Vial and Cavern in the same deck, but I really liked it.  Cavern ensured my turn 1 and 2 dorks resolved.  Then, when we get to midgame and I have a taxing effect or two on the board, Vial effectively doubles my mana when I need it.  It's a good core list. 

I'm also skeptical about Riddlesmith, though.  Cavern is only important in the early game (unless you're going null rod), precisely where I dont think you need the card draw.  If you're looking to recharge in the late game, Bob is just as easily vailed out as Riddlesmith.
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Guli
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« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2014, 02:34:36 am »

Yes, valid points. Dark Confidant is better than Riddlesmith for card generating purposes. But maybe Riddlesmith could work out nicely with Welder?

Again, I really think Null Rod should be Stony, no point in giving opponent more targets for their artifact hate!


With core you probably mean:

Vial
Thalia
Thorn
Chalice
Welder
Sydri
Wasteland

Oh and I also want to point out that I had Tangle Wire in the list when I was testing online and it was very strong. In GP Paris I didn't have one and I could not find one either for a reasonable price. (Wire is good with Karn) I adjusted the list here and there and added the Trap and Misstep. These are possible adjustments I think. Notion Thief and Strix were also personal choices, because they both hit hard in the match up they matter.

There are also possibilities to play with Explosives or Ratchet Bomb to clear moxes if you aren't using many moxes yourself! Also, if you sac Ratchet Bomb with a welder in play, you can Weld it back in for a mox or something else, giving you back Ratchet Bomb in exchange for something that was going to die anyway.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 02:40:08 am by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2014, 04:17:31 am »

Yes, valid points. Dark Confidant is better than Riddlesmith for card generating purposes. But maybe Riddlesmith could work out nicely with Welder?

Again, I really think Null Rod should be Stony, no point in giving opponent more targets for their artifact hate!


With core you probably mean:

Vial
Thalia
Thorn
Chalice
Welder
Sydri
Wasteland

Oh and I also want to point out that I had Tangle Wire in the list when I was testing online and it was very strong. In GP Paris I didn't have one and I could not find one either for a reasonable price. (Wire is good with Karn) I adjusted the list here and there and added the Trap and Misstep. These are possible adjustments I think. Notion Thief and Strix were also personal choices, because they both hit hard in the match up they matter.

There are also possibilities to play with Explosives or Ratchet Bomb to clear moxes if you aren't using many moxes yourself! Also, if you sac Ratchet Bomb with a welder in play, you can Weld it back in for a mox or something else, giving you back Ratchet Bomb in exchange for something that was going to die anyway.



I agree that Riddlesmith could be powerful, but isn't Welder + Riddlesmith really at its best when there are some bots to abuse (Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan etc?) To me, Welder doesn't make a ton of sense in this deck. Mind explaining the full extent of how he's used here cause I'm just not seeing it?

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Guli
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« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2014, 06:36:35 am »

Because you don't need to weld in big robots to be effective. Sometimes welding in that 1 Chalice, Thorn or Canonist can be just as devestating as welding in some big robot, that isn't really fitting in the deck anyway (you aren't positioning yourself to cast it or tinker it in play, which makes it too 'welder dependant'. Welders role in this deck is to destroy Workshop with Sydri, to answer Tinker, to bring back some of your creatures or lock peaces after they have been countered or destroyed.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2014, 10:44:45 am »

Because you don't need to weld in big robots to be effective. Sometimes welding in that 1 Chalice, Thorn or Canonist can be just as devestating as welding in some big robot, that isn't really fitting in the deck anyway (you aren't positioning yourself to cast it or tinker it in play, which makes it too 'welder dependant'. Welders role in this deck is to destroy Workshop with Sydri, to answer Tinker, to bring back some of your creatures or lock peaces after they have been countered or destroyed.

I think the use of the word sometimes (intentionally or subconsciously) suggests maybe 3 welders is too many.  While I've found him to be great against artifact heavy decks, like tezz and workshops, in the role you have him playing here, I always found him underwhelming against other decks.  Have you considered possibly cutting down on the number? Or running something like imperial recruiter?  I think recruiter would work well in your list as it grabs everything except notion thief.
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Guli
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« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2014, 02:13:20 pm »

I have another vintage event scheduled on 5 April. This event will be smaller and I am planning on reviving the Mayor of Avabruck. I expect people to be on BUG list, Workshop lists, a couple broken combo lists like tezzeret, oath and doomsday mabye.

If the guy makes it, there will also be at 1 other Human Oath player (my own design) ... LOL

I am also considering that new GWB Hatebears deck that made some top 8's.


Any suggestions? I ask this rarely, but I want to ride the car for a change, and not actually build it.


* What about trying to use Derevi in a competitive environment? Sydri worked out nicely, maybe Derevi can be next!



It combo's out with Time Vault and can generate mana.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 01:48:50 pm by Guli » Logged

Guli
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« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2014, 08:26:26 am »

Humans is dead? Only if everybody stops working on it.

Here is what I have been working on and can't wait to see it in action soon in the tournament of Mcm Mol this Sunday.

5C Humans

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Mental Misstep
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Notion Thief
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Oath of Ghouls
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

The list has 4 important Jace hosers, 2 Exava and 2 Notion Thief. I started the list with the usual cards like Thalia, Noble, Deathrite and Dark Confidant and then added 2x of these 4cc. They provide game changing lines of play and I wanted to 'build' the new list around them. Exava is not just for Jace, but it also puts huge pressure on BUG and Landstill. Notion Thief makes Griselbrand look pretty dumb and has other applications in Vintage.



Then I wanted early interactions to support Thalia. Best way to do this is Mental Misstep and Cage in my opinion. We can play the long game, we got removal, card draw good creatures, but in order to survive I find it important to have anti broken cards in some slots.

The sideboard is pretty good versus Workshop and therefore I wanted some really good cards against Workshop main deck. If I draw them, I will have a shot of stealing game 1. Ancient Grudge and Path to Exile are good cards against them. I went for path and not stp because of Griselbrand and the fact that I don't really need Path against decks that use a lot basics, other parts of the deck are good there.


Thoughts?

Have fun!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 06:44:04 am by Guli » Logged

xouman
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« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2014, 09:29:42 am »

Aren't 5 colors a problem? A waste, revoker, magus of the moon, removal on drs/noble... I'll try to drop red and include a basic swamp. Exava can be replaced with miscutter hydra/mayor of ava and then chewer has to go, but you can play claims, mana crypt (awesome against spheres)...

Another option is life from the loam/crucible, since wastes would be less painful and your own wastes make a lock

4 missteps aren't too much? Countering drs and delver is important, but you already pack removal.
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Guli
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« Reply #99 on: April 05, 2014, 04:01:20 am »

Countering Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Vampiric Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares can also be a key tempo play.

I am not worried about 5 colors thanks to the Noble's, Deathrites, Cavern, Fetchlands and City of Brass. I don't see why I should be worried about a Moon effect if people don't prefer it in a vintage event. If I would need to adapt, surely there will be room for an extra dismember, and some bolts.

I like Exava, Grudge and Ingot. The red is relevant.

I think the most important question is why no Stony Silence. I am still very unsure about that decision, but I am hoping the Missteps, Thalia, Decay and Ancient Grudge to be disriptive enough against a deck like Tezz. Also there is a Duress and those Exava should also destroy any planeswalkers. Maybe could make room for 1 Stony in Sideboard? Just to be sure? The deck has the Demonic and Vamp to tutor for it.

Thoughts on Stony Silence? Unmissable or Replaceable?

« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 04:05:30 am by Guli » Logged

xouman
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« Reply #100 on: April 05, 2014, 02:23:25 pm »

Ah, right! Stony silence is really important, specially without revokers or gorilla shaman. Probably in the sb, you run 4 moxen+1 batterskull and some decks play even less artifacts. 2 at least.

I was going to say that Cotv on 1 was hard, but then I realized about the 4 decays plus grudge, well played. Decays also affect tarmogoyfs, oozes or other big creatures, plus oath. As I said, I just can think about take the red out (maybe I'm worse mulliganing or fetching lands), the rest seems really good. Ah, and the couple of stony silences. In place of vampiric and mindbreak trap imho.
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Guli
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« Reply #101 on: April 06, 2014, 12:50:07 am »

Maybe the War Priest is over kill and could be a Stony Silence. There are 4 Decay and 2 Cage main deck for Oath so it should be fine. I ll think about it. The trap seems a nice addition to the missteps and duress against doomsday or tps/ant which do see play around here.
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xouman
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« Reply #102 on: April 06, 2014, 06:58:48 am »

In my meta there is little ant/doomsday, most is aggro control (bug, esper), mud of course some oath, fish, occasional dredge, tezz, and other things. Mindbreak is not the card you usually want, and vampiric is not the best in this field.
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Guli
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« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2014, 09:03:56 am »

I am in the top 8, taking a break right now Wink

Lots of Shop, Bug and some Oath. Didn't see a dredge. 1 Landstill (friend of mine) made it to top 8 too.

Will be back soon!
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xouman
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« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2014, 11:27:27 am »

Congratz! We expect a full report :p
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Guli
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« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2014, 01:21:24 pm »

Yes Yes, I made it to the finals to face my first Workshop match up. There were a good portion of Forgemaster/Metalworker combo Workshop decks present but my day went fairly shopless until the very end.

First of all I want to start with the Exava and Notion Thief moments. I went into this tournament with 2 things in mind. I want to brutally pound in with my Exava and surprise my opponents with her speed and power. And I wanted to at least set up 1 game were I steal Jace's brainstorm. I succeeded in doing both. This is for me the biggest upside of the entire tourney. I killed an opponent on the spot with an haste Exava, it came out of nowhere for him. He was counting the total damage and it was exactly lethal. Without Exava I could have lost, he had a Time Vault and many cards. The Thief was a (if I may say it myself) brilliant setup from my part. I start with a Duress seeing 2 Jace, Bob and Clasm. I have a Thief and 2 Deathrite. I take the clasm and play deathrite. He only has 3 mana so he needs to topdeck land. It doesn't happen and I get another land and play the second Deathrite. This was game 3 of the quarter finals, he lands Jace and announces the 0 ability of brainstorm. I tell him to hold up and respond with brutality. I take 3 cards, he puts 2 back.

After describing some dream scenarios, I ll give a quick report from what I still remember:

Oh before I start:

24 players
5 Swiss rounds
Top 8 finals

List I played:

5C Humans

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Mental Misstep
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Notion Thief
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Oath of Ghouls
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

Round 1: I get paired against Delver. This is not an easy match up but then again, I do have the Decays and a couple Stoneforge to make life hard on them.

In game 1 there is an early Delver on his side and a Dark Confidant on my side. He immediately reveals a Lightning Bolt and shows my Bob the way to the graveyard. I try to stabilize with Caverns, Thalia and Decay but he soon after has a Snapcaster to replay Bolt and follows it up with more threats. He had his run, time for revenge!

Game 2 I side in Stoneforge #3 and Batterskull #2. I have all my stuff, mana dudes, decays, thalia, stoneforges... At some point the board is double batterskull and he crumbles away even with grudge and steel sabotage tricks.

In game 3 I have a very similar game, but this time I have only 1 Stoneforge but I already am holding a Batterskull and tutor up the second. I also have an early Thalia, preventing him from grudging at will. Yes this game also ended with me gaining a lot life while he was bleeding to death.

Good start, a 2-1 match win against RUG Delver!

Round 2: I face a BUG Fish deck that has many similarities with my 5C Human deck. His deck is built very nicely and I think it was one of the best decks at the tourney.

In game 1 there is a battle of who can keep his Bob alive. We both can not because we both run Decays (good card!). The game goes back and forth and I am eager to topdeck an Exava but she decided to be absent. Instead Stoneforge shows up and steals the show. A couple of Batterskull with Noble behind it beats and the game is mine. It was not an easy game, but his 5/5 Ooze was just not enough against the big muscle.

In game 2 there is an early Dark Confidant. I try to keep up with Duress and Ancestral Recall (I duress away a Misdirection). The problem is he also has a Force of Will. His Dark Confidant does give him a lot damage  but then I let a Deathrite Resolve. I was completely blacked out at this point, I had a Misstep but somehow I didn't see the Deathrite resolution. This happens to all of us I think from time to time, distraction and fatigue. The next turn I was like " where did that drs come from? " on which my opponent responded with " I cast it last turn ". Now it was not completely my fault, there was a guy talking and commenting the entire time, it was a rather informal atmosphere and then a player can miss things. I also do not know if it would have mattered since I still had to deal with Dark Confidant. I lost the game a bit later.

So we are going to a game 3 with me on the play. This is not bad, and I do open with Duress seeing Sea, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bob, Drs, Snapcaster and Lotus. The Lotus hits the graveyard. The problem is that he has a good hand. He starts with Deathrite Shaman and passes the turn. I decide to Wasteland and play my Dark Confidant. But sadly he draws the critical removal spell and soon after he time walks with dark confidant and then uses snapcaster to walk again and so on.

This match was really not easy, I lost 1-2 fair and square.

Round 3: I have to win, or I can forget a top 8, I feel the pressure. Good times.

I win the die roll this time and I lead with a Cavern and Noble. A very decent start and I am holding a Misstep and Thalia for any combo shenanigans. My opponent reveals he is on Noble Fish. I have a Stoneforge, which is good here and I do some tempo plays with Wasteland and Thalia before I begin my Stoneforge plan. When I finally go in with a Batterskull he plays a Hurkly's Recall. His plays so far were Pridemages and more Pridemages. I managed to keep a Dark Confidant alive thanks to Misstep and used Decays to get rid of the Pridemages. Eventually I topdeck Exava and well, I just swing with Exava putting me in a huge lead in the race. He can not recover, knowing I also have a Batterskull, he goes to game 2.

In game 2 I again get access to my Stoneforge package and back it up with Missteps, Decays and so on. The game went in such a way that he just could not put a lot pressure and I slowly took over the board. I think this match up is hard for Noble Fish.

Not bad: I am 2-1 and only 2 matches to go for a top 8!

Round 4: I am facing a friend of mine and he is on Oath. I have 4 Decay and 2 Cages main deck and I feel very nice about this.

Sadly game 1 is a disaster for me. He plays Lotus, mox, land and time walk. Then he plays some other firggin artifact (top ^_^) and time vault. and follows it up with a Balance. I haven't done a single thing and I have to discard to 2. He does lose a land but he quickly lands another land. He passes the turn with a big smile. But what did I keep? Lets analyse:



I have:




What would you keep?

Scroll down ...


 a bit more ....


    this is just an anti spoiler don't be bad at me Smile





And I kept ...  

Scrubland and Abrupt Decay. I debated this for a while and decided on this because I wanted black for the Decay or a Deathrite and white for a potential Thalia? At this point he was also on topdeck mode but he had a Top so yea it was a hard start.

I topdeck a Catacomb and play it. I pass the turn with a soft and disappointed voice. He finds an Oath and puts down orchard too. I am like wtf, this is getting insane. But I did keep the Decay and I pass the turn with Decay mana. He makes the token and I Decay the Oath. I am still not in this game yet, but getting closer with tiny little plays.

Then I do find a Dark Confdiant while he is digging. At some point later on, he was obviously setting up something big with Top. He has a loaded graveyard and a Time Vault. This is the critical turn for me. If I topdeck a Cage, I might still win this game. But I topdeck a Batterskull (no hard feelings, Batterskull has won me many games so far) and then another land. Turn later he goes off like a madman with a huge Y Will.

I want blood! I quickly sideboard and draw my new 7, which I intend to use this time. I start with Cage and turn 2 Thalia. I have the Wasteland (yea baby!) and he misses a land drop. At this point I know I am ahead and I do some beatings with Thalia holding Misstep and Decay. He scoops rather fast but this was understandable, he kept missing a land drop and the life total was very low and I have Dark Confidant and Thalia beating for 4.

Game 3 I fear for a big blowout (much like game 1). I brought in the trap here, because his Oath list runs Gushbond, Tyrant, Blightsteel, a lot of broken things all together and explosive openings. He does start off with Moxes and lands but doesn't have something threatening (yet). I get in a Cage and Thalia again, ingoring the Oath for now. I do not want to over commit, and play carefully until I have a 1 turn clock. Exava enables this, and suddenly a slow game became a game were he has only 1 turn. He can't find an answer.

Yoohoo! I win 2-1 versus Oath.


The final round is against Landstill and we decide on a ID. The landstill player is someone I know from cockatrice and we went to Bom twice together. It was a no brainer. We went out to get a drink and relax. We earned it, our decks made it, great feeling Smile


TOP 8:

QUARTER FINALS:

Grixis versus Humans

A spectacular game, vintage at its finest. He has a Dark Confidant, I get rid of it, I get a Dark Confidant, he Bolts it. I find a Thalia and have a Noble. I have a decent clock, he keeps passing, not able to do much untill he finds another land. I speculate he has a Snapcaster and wants to fire off that Bolt and then proceed with Jace. I did have a low hand size and felt the pressure a bit. Then he executes his plan with Snap Bolt and Jace follows. However he is at 6 life. In response to his bolt I decide to path to exile his Snapcaster (his turn) and he has no mana. He can not counter because of Thalia. He loses Snap but gets an island, my Thalia goes away. But I am holding Exava and another Thalia. So then I have choice, to kill Jace or to bring him at 1 life. He also has a mana crypt in play. What would you do?

I decided to just go for him and give him that 1 brainstorm. There is also a 50% chance that he simply loses the game on his upkeep. He wins the die roll, brainstorms Jace putting back Blighsteel from his hand (learned this after game) and finds Tinker. This is hilarious of course. He tinker and he then has 3 mana left with 2 cards in hand. He passes. I can simply swing in with Exava and Thalia, but does he have another bolt? Or does he have a creature with Flash? I decide to simply go for it and swing in for lethal. He has the Snapcaster. I could have also played the bob in my hand and pass the turn. But I don't know if that would be smart, he does have a Jace and that Snap will still be able to come in later. Would you have gone for it, calling his bluff? Amazing game.

Then in game 2 I have a hand with Scrubland, Mox Ruby, Stony, Ancient Grudge, Vampiric, Noble and Ancestral Recall but no second land. I keep this anyway and start the game with a Stony Silence. It was the right call, he had no lands and 2 Mox. I vampiric for a Cavern to put Noble in play giving me access to blue and 3 mana next turn.

Game 3 is the game were my notion thief steals his jace draws. I explained this game in the introduction. No need to repeat myself. It was all about setting up the Thief after I did Duress. This game also launched me to the Semi Finals making the Thief even more epic!


SEMI FINALS:

I have to play the same Oath deck I played in the swiss rounds. I want to keep this short, because the games were rather short. In both games I find Cage, Decay and other good stuff and was able to deny mana with Wasteland and Thalia. In game 1 however, Exava was again the card that made the clock tick fast. Game 2 was also about too few mana for him, and me having the Cage, Thalia, Bob, Decay, etc. There isn't really much to say here, he never got a chance to Oath or do something broken. I remember doing a Duress somewhere, discarding a Time Vault while he has Tinker and Y Will with Cage in play.


The Finals:

Forge/Metal/Staff Workshop with Time Vault, Blightsteel and other big threats. The deck is insane. But I have the outs and if I draw them I have a good chance. Game 1 he begins without even rolling a die. I find this rule disgusting. He had more points and he can start. This is really not helping Vintage for fair games, especially with the Workshop match up. Anyway, he has a Metalworker and I can not destroy it in time. GG (djeez...) If I would start, I would have drs/waste/decay and I probably just win.

Game 2 I destroy him with Dark Confidant, mana, Stone Silence, and removal. He really didn't do anything threatening in my opinion. Death to Workshop!

Game 3 I have a dream hand, with Ingot, Taiga, Grudge, Deathrite, Fetchland and Wasteland (i mulled to this hand). I even topdeck a second grudge. The problem however is that he opens with Shop, Mana Vault and Greaves. I waste his Shop and pass. Then he has an Ancient Tomb and casts a Forgemaster. I can't believe my eyes, I have everything I need against Workshop, but he is on the Tinker/Blightsteel plan because he just got all the peaces in the final game of this tournament.

I play a deathrite shaman hoping to topdeck that Path to exile (only out). But he topdecks a dismember and poisons me to death. My mistake was probably to waste his Workshop, Should have simply used Ingot on Lightning Greaves and then the next turn hope that nothing all too broken happens and use my Grudges. Another possibility was to play Ingot on Mana Vault, this would force him to play a non wasteland land in order to play the Forgemaster and he would not have 3 artifacts (unless he is sandbagging a mox). My play was not correct in my opinion. And it costed me the finals.


Last year, I also was in the finals (10 man tournament - top 4) facing the same deck but another pilot. I could not get my reconciliation. The peace was not restored and the Workshop walked away with 2 mana drains and 2 byes for Bom. I won 1 Bye for Bom and a Tropical Island.

So I played 3 tournaments with this deck and got 2 top 8's. The one that I did not top 8 was in Bom Paris last summer. Which is of course a larger event and it is harder to get through 9 - 11 rounds and make it to the top 8. But it is very possible. I love this deck so much.


Cheers!
Guli
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 08:00:26 pm by Guli » Logged

brianpk80
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« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2014, 02:44:21 pm »

Congratulations Guli!

I agree that the 4CC uncounterable Humans are showstoppers.  Believe it or not, I occasionally still have to debate the merits of the Thief but once again that card was integral to me winning several matches yesterday and ultimately the whole event.  He got in there for a Gush, and also got in there when I played Ancestral, opponent responded with Ancestral, I played Thief, he Brainstormed, I Misstepped it and then drew 6 cards, untapped and won soon w. Vault Tinker.  Exava is a lightning fast clock for Humans because of the haste and Exalted.  I had a similar experience last year, killing an Oath player with the Blood Witch; it was something absurd like attack for 7 on turn 3 bringing him to 3 life.  Even though in a vacuum, Exava doesn't seem great against Oath of Druids.dec, in practice she has consistently been very lethal.  In other news, Wizards apparently printed a set of deck sleeves with Exava on them and I picked up a pack yesterday. 

Great report!
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« Reply #107 on: April 06, 2014, 04:46:07 pm »

Congratulations Guli!

I agree that the 4CC uncounterable Humans are showstoppers.  Believe it or not, I occasionally still have to debate the merits of the Thief but once again that card was integral to me winning several matches yesterday and ultimately the whole event.  He got in there for a Gush, and also got in there when I played Ancestral, opponent responded with Ancestral, I played Thief, he Brainstormed, I Misstepped it and then drew 6 cards, untapped and won soon w. Vault Tinker.  Exava is a lightning fast clock for Humans because of the haste and Exalted.  I had a similar experience last year, killing an Oath player with the Blood Witch; it was something absurd like attack for 7 on turn 3 bringing him to 3 life.  Even though in a vacuum, Exava doesn't seem great against Oath of Druids.dec, in practice she has consistently been very lethal.  In other news, Wizards apparently printed a set of deck sleeves with Exava on them and I picked up a pack yesterday. 

Great report!

Grats Brian. I still <3 you, but I'm also still not convinced on Notion Thief. I'm willing to listen, but you haven't sold me as of yet.
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« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2014, 12:03:17 am »

It is not that hard to see why Exava is good in the deck I played. There are 6 cards that directly stop Oath of Druids. This generates a lot of tempo and Exava deals 12 damage in 3 turns (more than a Golem). You can Imagine what happens if there is also a Thalia on the table? More tempo means Exava is more deadly. Exava also has the nasty habit of putting landstill in a very tight spot because they need more than 1 resources to deal with her and that takes time to set up. Time is exactly what Exava tends to deny opponents. BUG doesn't have a real answer to it, and BUG is widely played.

Notion Thief is a 4cc uncounterable (most of the the time) counter spell that counters the draw spell or ability and draws you cards. It is an expensive two for one, and it never stops to surprise for some reason. It comes online on turn 2 with a mox and mana dude turn 1 so that is rather fast if you ask me. The card pushed me into the semi finals and that is good enough for me. If my opponents Jace would be able to brainstorm there, I would start falling behind and eventually lose, but instead he had to put back 2 cards and I got an ancestral recall. What is there to convince? It speaks for itself. Just remember to run enough acceleration, mental misstep to protect versus bolts / plows and cavern of souls.
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« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2014, 01:04:26 am »

Congratulations Guli!

I agree that the 4CC uncounterable Humans are showstoppers.  Believe it or not, I occasionally still have to debate the merits of the Thief but once again that card was integral to me winning several matches yesterday and ultimately the whole event.  He got in there for a Gush, and also got in there when I played Ancestral, opponent responded with Ancestral, I played Thief, he Brainstormed, I Misstepped it and then drew 6 cards, untapped and won soon w. Vault Tinker.  Exava is a lightning fast clock for Humans because of the haste and Exalted.  I had a similar experience last year, killing an Oath player with the Blood Witch; it was something absurd like attack for 7 on turn 3 bringing him to 3 life.  Even though in a vacuum, Exava doesn't seem great against Oath of Druids.dec, in practice she has consistently been very lethal.  In other news, Wizards apparently printed a set of deck sleeves with Exava on them and I picked up a pack yesterday. 

Great report!
Nice going! Omg, Thief has been doing work this weekend Wink

Maybe write a nice enjoyable report if you have time?
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« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2014, 05:00:17 am »

Now that you have some experience with them, is thief better than spirit even costing 2 more?  asymmetrical effect, flash and being a human are enough?
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« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2014, 07:37:51 am »

What is there to convince?

There is plenty of things to convince me of. First, it's a reactive 2 for 1 (though it's usually a lot more than that if you calculate the card they invest and their expected return and your actual gain). It only works if they play into it. The competent player will wait for opportune moments to pull the trigger on their draw effects. Convince me that there aren't better things you can be doing. Secondly, it has a restrictive mana cost. It costs two different colors and four total mana. You're casting this card when you could be casting Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Jace the Mindsculptor, etc. The cards I mentioned have immediate impact no matter what. As alluded to earlier, Thief is only good in response to a draw spell. I definitely think it's more realistic to view NT as a lock piece than anything else. When I learned it didn't even fly I was even more concerned. I remember playing against Bryan's original 5c Humans list. Exava was a beating and the top of his curve. It beats blue decks. It doesn't need another card to win an already favorable match up and have little to no use elsewhere. Thief is also fragile, and not just to 1 cmc spells. Fire/Ice is agreat card that you don't mention. Izzet Charm is very strong and underrated. Sure, both are underplayed right now - but that is only because there is little need for them. I could easily see a Grixis list on 2-3 copies of the above if the meta stays so X/1 creature dominated.

Oh, and blue players that haven't or won't adapted to Mindbreak Trap or Wasteland to stop Cavern of Souls baffle me.
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« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2014, 08:02:51 am »

@Samoht

I understand your point of view, but here is the thing. The very presence of Notion Thief (in my list it was 2 main deck), changes how a match up plays out. You also underestimate the surprise value, especially in a tournament setting. The game were I cast Duress I knew exactly what was going to happen and my opponent did not have a clue. Jace is a huge meta factor, and it does not matter if you have a trap or wasteland, if I get that Thief in play, you are royally screwed. You can't keep counters and removal in hand and turn your focus on Thief. Usually you have burned through your counter/removal and are looking to replenish with Jace or Bob. This is were my Decay and Exava/Thief kick in.

From my point of view, I needed 3 or 4 4cc bombs that answer some of the big issues I might face. This is because I wanted to play 4 mox and 6 mana dudes (3 Noble/ 3Deathrite). I knew I was going to have a lot mana when I was facing controlling, combo decks. Landing a Cavern and Noble with a mox, and following up with a second land on turn two happens a lot in such a deck. This is about the time were your opponents are seeking to cast a Recall, Gush, Brainstorm, activate Jace, Preordain, Activate a LOA, ... This also explains the 4 Missteps. Missteps in addition to Notion Thief work well together. Also important is that these 4cc Superhumans can not be targeted by a Decay. The cards that can target these superhumans, are usually 1 casting cost and this is where misstep changes its role from " an aggressive denial card" into a protective counter".

So it is not about Notion Thief in a vacuum. I have created a context to give the card a function. He performed this task when I needed it the most. This is not luck, this is planned behavior and skilled magic. If you are up for it, give it a try. But I would not advise to just splash Notion Thief into a deck that has  access to {U} {B} . In that sense I agree, you might be better of with another Jace or use something like Fact or Fiction.

Now that you have some experience with them, is thief better than spirit even costing 2 more?  asymmetrical effect, flash and being a human are enough?
They are both equal in power level in my opinion, but they both need a context. Notion Thief a bit more so than Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit is probably just splash-able into more decks though, because of an easier casting cost. I believe in 'making a card shine' and not in 'this card is good' when we talk about cards that aren't Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, ... You need to work and plan to make it work. I am not talking about just the effect, since the effect on itself will work without effort, but the deck as a whole needs to work too. This is what I like to do in magic, design these decks in such a way that it ticks and then take it to a tournament. Some call this home brewing, but that concept has a casual ring too it. I am all but casual. What role will I give Spirit in deck A or deck B? Do I need such an effect in deck A? The cumulative effect of the effects have to make sense too.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2014, 09:13:23 am »

Nice going! Omg, Thief has been doing work this weekend Wink

Maybe write a nice enjoyable report if you have time?

Thank you.  I will write one sometime soon. 
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« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2014, 10:56:23 am »

@Samoht

I understand your point of view, but here is the thing. The very presence of Notion Thief (in my list it was 2 main deck), changes how a match up plays out. You also underestimate the surprise value, especially in a tournament setting. The game were I cast Duress I knew exactly what was going to happen and my opponent did not have a clue. Jace is a huge meta factor, and it does not matter if you have a trap or wasteland, if I get that Thief in play, you are royally screwed. You can't keep counters and removal in hand and turn your focus on Thief. Usually you have burned through your counter/removal and are looking to replenish with Jace or Bob. This is were my Decay and Exava/Thief kick in.

From my point of view, I needed 3 or 4 4cc bombs that answer some of the big issues I might face. This is because I wanted to play 4 mox and 6 mana dudes (3 Noble/ 3Deathrite). I knew I was going to have a lot mana when I was facing controlling, combo decks. Landing a Cavern and Noble with a mox, and following up with a second land on turn two happens a lot in such a deck. This is about the time were your opponents are seeking to cast a Recall, Gush, Brainstorm, activate Jace, Preordain, Activate a LOA, ... This also explains the 4 Missteps. Missteps in addition to Notion Thief work well together. Also important is that these 4cc Superhumans can not be targeted by a Decay. The cards that can target these superhumans, are usually 1 casting cost and this is where misstep changes its role from " an aggressive denial card" into a protective counter".

So it is not about Notion Thief in a vacuum. I have created a context to give the card a function. He performed this task when I needed it the most. This is not luck, this is planned behavior and skilled magic. If you are up for it, give it a try. But I would not advise to just splash Notion Thief into a deck that has  access to {U} {B} . In that sense I agree, you might be better of with another Jace or use something like Fact or Fiction.

My issue comes from diminishing returns on repetitive lines here. The first time you blow someone out with NT is likely the last, barring forced gamestates. People who aren't expecting it or haven't prepared for it can be decimated by it, I 100% agree. After the first time, they better have learned their lesson or they aren't all that competent to begin with. Sure, you can railroad someone into a line of play by dictating game states - but at which point is NT better than the other options at the CMC in those situations? I think you're over valuing the card and its impact based on how you seem to get people to play into it. Additionally, it's niche value will only last as long as it is a fringe card at best. If it becomes popular, the answers to it are prevalent and have strong implications elsewhere in the format.

I will say, that powering it down off Cavern into a Standstill is a glorious feeling (done it in testing) but I often am at parity or behind when I feel the pressure of having a 4 CMC card that does nothing in hand. It concerns me that this needs help to be efficient as a 4 drop for us. I wouldn't play a 2 color 4 cmc 3/1 creature that had flash and said my opponent can't draw extra cards. Getting the same thing in the 2 slot minus the flash I feel is stellar, and thus the reason I'd want Spirit of the Labyrinth. Sure you are open to Decay but it'd be a lot earlier and dominating. Thief can slow all those plays down that you mention, but what if they don't make them? You can not build on  the board at instant speed when the opponent just passes back. It has little interaction with the more aggressive blue decks like BUG Fish, BUG Control, and Grixis Control as they rely on Bob. It is atrocious against Shops. It is terrible against Dredge. It is at best middling in the Rod matches. It shines against Landstill and Bomberman decks that flood countermagic and card advantage. You already are favored there and have Exava. Why are we dedicating more slots to beating a favorable match up subset with so little value elsewhere?

Please don't assume I haven't played with the card or that I'm not a skilled magician. Neither would be correct in this case. I see the card for what it is as a tool for me and against me. I see it's weaknesses, especially when it is a known entity. I think you are glossing over them and thus drawing false conclusions. Brian and I have tried discussing it a few times, but we often move on for the sake of those at the table before getting to an agreed upon conclusion.
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« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2014, 11:23:28 am »

This is not an easy discussion, I realize that. This is also not a discussion on your skill as a magic player. All I can say is that I planned to do something specific with Exava and NT, and it worked out for me. And I don't think Spirit was the card I was looking for. Because I wanted something that either had haste or flash to surprise my opponents. You talk as if NT is widely played and that Exava is known. It is not solely an argument on a theoretical level, where I would agree with most of your points. There is also an practical side of the impact of these cards and I took advantage of that. Next time, which will probably be in a year (at best case 6 months) my local meta will not be the same, and I will probably not take the same deck/cards. But yesterday I recognized there is a Jace threat, a Workshop threat, Oath threat and Bug threat. I scooped up other decks with Stoneforge (a great non human card to cover for unexpected match ups).
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« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2014, 12:24:32 pm »

I feel the need to point out that the correct play in a particular situation might be the one which leaves you vulnerable to NT, based on the need to dig for an answer, board pressure forcing you to try to win that turn, % chance of opponent having NT vs some other dangerous card, etc. So just because your opponent is a strong player, doesn't mean they can't be blown out by a fringe card like NT.

Guli, I've just picked up this deck for the first time and Exava is incredible. I'm only running the 1 NT, but it's really nice to hit in almost every matchup except for shops (and even then it can kill a lodestone in a pinch and isn't unplayable with 6 dorks). Love the manabase, too. I'm not totally sold on the mainboard cages, but I can see why you'd want them given how tricky the oath matchup can be.
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« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2014, 12:40:56 pm »

I feel the need to point out that the correct play in a particular situation might be the one which leaves you vulnerable to NT, based on the need to dig for an answer, board pressure forcing you to try to win that turn, % chance of opponent having NT vs some other dangerous card, etc. So just because your opponent is a strong player, doesn't mean they can't be blown out by a fringe card like NT.

Guli, I've just picked up this deck for the first time and Exava is incredible. I'm only running the 1 NT, but it's really nice to hit in almost every matchup except for shops (and even then it can kill a lodestone in a pinch and isn't unplayable with 6 dorks). Love the manabase, too. I'm not totally sold on the mainboard cages, but I can see why you'd want them given how tricky the oath matchup can be.

I acknowledged that railroading opponents into game state is possible. You aren't pointing out something that I didn't point out. What I asked for was proof that if you can railroad someone into a position, why is it better for that to be vulnerable to NT instead of Gifts, Jace, or even FoF? What unfavorable match up is it affecting? Those are the distinctions that I've been making. You have to validate the cards slot in the deck.
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« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2014, 12:54:34 pm »

Gifts: If the deck wants a threat, the opponent will always give you the worst 2 threats. If you want an answer, you'll probably get the wrong one. Sure, there are some double ups, like dismember/path, but rarely do you have 3 levels of redundancy (especially with no Snapcaster). I think Gifts is a lot better when you proactively have suitable piles built into the deck (e.g. vault/key/snapcaster/will) or need protection (e.g. a combo piece in hand, so one card is replaced with a force) or a similar situation. I think in this deck, Gifts would just be a pretty average tutor.

Jace: I can't say for sure due to limited experience with the deck, but I think it might struggle to play Jace reliably, especially with 1-2 Thalia's in play.

I think Bob+Acall will probably draw enough cards over the first few turns to not really worry about playing extra blue packages (FoF, tutors, cantrips, etc), especially considering that this deck doesn't need to draw that many cards to be effective. It also probably prefers the threat density of something with utility and a clock in the slot. I don't know if I'd play two, but one seems good.

Not sure if this or Spirit would be better in this deck, though. I'm inclined to say that spirit is the better card, but I find that when I've played spirit in other decks (mostly fish variants), my opponent will wait until the critical turn, destroy the Spirit and use the manipulation spells they've been sandbagging to find their answer to my creatures, put their combo together, etc.
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« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2014, 01:08:03 pm »

Gifts: If the deck wants a threat, the opponent will always give you the worst 2 threats. If you want an answer, you'll probably get the wrong one. Sure, there are some double ups, like dismember/path, but rarely do you have 3 levels of redundancy (especially with no Snapcaster). I think Gifts is a lot better when you proactively have suitable piles built into the deck (e.g. vault/key/snapcaster/will) or need protection (e.g. a combo piece in hand, so one card is replaced with a force) or a similar situation. I think in this deck, Gifts would just be a pretty average tutor.

Jace: I can't say for sure due to limited experience with the deck, but I think it might struggle to play Jace reliably, especially with 1-2 Thalia's in play.

I think Bob+Acall will probably draw enough cards over the first few turns to not really worry about playing extra blue packages (FoF, tutors, cantrips, etc), especially considering that this deck doesn't need to draw that many cards to be effective. It also probably prefers the threat density of something with utility and a clock in the slot. I don't know if I'd play two, but one seems good.

Not sure if this or Spirit would be better in this deck, though. I'm inclined to say that spirit is the better card, but I find that when I've played spirit in other decks (mostly fish variants), my opponent will wait until the critical turn, destroy the Spirit and use the manipulation spells they've been sandbagging to find their answer to my creatures, put their combo together, etc.

I think I can agree with your assessment of Jace in the deck pretty readily. I think you undervalue the power of Gifts, but most do. If you can't leverage the two threats over the NT you're deck is probably pretty weak to begin with. That said, it still is not a creature and gets pushed out by Thalia (lol @ 2 in play, you must have special ones!).

I'll admit that I just threw out the first 4 cmc blue cards that came to my head as very powerful. I will even admit that in this shell they aren't as powerful as in the typical decks you see them in, based on an assortment of reasons. I still think there are better cards for the deck than NT, they just might not be 4 cmc blue ones.
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