Human Ingenuity

[mmcgeach]

does aegis of the gods shut off gifts entirely?

There's no target opponent to choose 2 of the 4 cards, so all 4 go into the graveyard.  Which is pretty close, yeah.

[Guli]

does aegis of the gods shut off gifts entirely?

There's no target opponent to choose 2 of the 4 cards, so all 4 go into the graveyard.  Which is pretty close, yeah.

Huh?! Gifts can not be cast if there is no legal target. Did the rules change on this?

[vaughnbros]

does aegis of the gods shut off gifts entirely?

There's no target opponent to choose 2 of the 4 cards, so all 4 go into the graveyard.  Which is pretty close, yeah.

Huh?! Gifts can not be cast if there is no legal target. Did the rules change on this?

Rules didn't change you can't cast it.

[mmcgeach]

Oops.  That's right.  What card am I thinking of?  I must be confused.

[msg67183]

Does this list more suite your fancy:

Abzan Humans 


Mana (25):

4 Cavern of Souls 

3 Windswept Heath 

1 Verdant Catacombs 

1 Marsh Flats 

2 Savannah 

2 Scrubland 

2 Bayou 

1 Forest 

1 Plains 

2 Wasteland 

Strip Mine 

1 Maze of Ith

Black Lotus 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 

Mox Pearl 


Threats (28):

3 Mother of Runes 

4 Noble Hierarch 

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 

4 Dark Confidant 

3 Mayor of Avabruck 

3 Containment Priest 

3 Aegis of the Gods 

2 Banisher Priest 

3 Knight of the Reliquary 


Removal / Disruption (7):


3 Abrupt Decay 

3 Stony Silence 

1 Life from the Loam 


Sideboard:

3 Ethersworn Canonist 

2 Orzohv Pontiff 

2 Umezawa's Jitte 

2 Anafenza, the Foremost 

1 Mayor of Avabruck 

1 Banisher Priest 

1 Containment Priest 

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite 

1 Bojuka Bog 

1 Wasteland 

I agree that Elesh Norn is amazing against Mentor decks as well as Dredge, Delver or any other deck trying to win through attacking with smallish creatures. Anafenza made the Dredge matchup fairly easy, so I just shipped it to the board, it can fairly easily be played turn 2, either with moxen or Hierarch. Maze is a very interesting choice that I missed when I originally built this, but it is indeed strong. What are your thoughts on the list now?

[nedleeds]

does aegis of the gods shut off gifts entirely?

assuming you are dueling ... yes ... you should be the only opponent available to target.

edit: refreshing the thread is technology

[Guli]

I don't know if this deck can support Elesh Norn. Maybe use a Tomb and Cradle (or 2 cradle) in the sideboard to generate more mana for the Elesh Norn.

I would cut 2 Pontiff and add a second Elesh Norn if you are walking that path.

[StanleyAugust]

Does this list more suite your fancy:

Abzan Humans 


Mana (25):

4 Cavern of Souls 

3 Windswept Heath 

1 Verdant Catacombs 

1 Marsh Flats 

2 Savannah 

2 Scrubland 

2 Bayou 

1 Forest 

1 Plains 

2 Wasteland 

Strip Mine 

1 Maze of Ith

Black Lotus 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 

Mox Pearl 


Threats (28):

3 Mother of Runes 

4 Noble Hierarch 

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 

4 Dark Confidant 

3 Mayor of Avabruck 

3 Containment Priest 

3 Aegis of the Gods 

2 Banisher Priest 

3 Knight of the Reliquary 


Removal / Disruption (7):


3 Abrupt Decay 

3 Stony Silence 

1 Life from the Loam 


Sideboard:

3 Ethersworn Canonist 

2 Orzohv Pontiff 

2 Umezawa's Jitte 

2 Anafenza, the Foremost 

1 Mayor of Avabruck 

1 Banisher Priest 

1 Containment Priest 

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite 

1 Bojuka Bog 

1 Wasteland

I agree that Elesh Norn is amazing against Mentor decks as well as Dredge, Delver or any other deck trying to win through attacking with smallish creatures. Anafenza made the Dredge matchup fairly easy, so I just shipped it to the board, it can fairly easily be played turn 2, either with moxen or Hierarch. Maze is a very interesting choice that I missed when I originally built this, but it is indeed strong. What are your thoughts on the list now?

I like that list. It looks a lot more focused than most other Beats decks playing 4 Cavern. I would make room for Gaddock, though. The card is amazing right now.

[msg67183]

I don't know if this deck can support Elesh Norn. Maybe use a Tomb and Cradle (or 2 cradle) in the sideboard to generate more mana for the Elesh Norn.

I would cut 2 Pontiff and add a second Elesh Norn if you are walking that path.

I actually like Gaea's Cradle here. It helps cast the nigh unbeatable Elesh Norn, while also synergizing with what the deck wants to already be doing, play dudes. I think this list looks pretty solid with your changesAbzan Humans 


Mana (25):

4 Cavern of Souls 

3 Windswept Heath 

1 Verdant Catacombs 

1 Marsh Flats 

2 Savannah 

2 Scrubland 

2 Bayou 

1 Forest 

1 Plains 

1 Wasteland 

Strip Mine 

1 Maze of Ith 

1 Gaea's Cradle 

Black Lotus 

Mox Jet 

Mox Emerald 

Mox Pearl 


Threats (28):

3 Mother of Runes 

4 Noble Hierarch 

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 

4 Dark Confidant 

3 Mayor of Avabruck 

3 Containment Priest 

3 Aegis of the Gods 

2 Banisher Priest 

3 Knight of the Reliquary 


Removal / Disruption (7):


3 Abrupt Decay 

3 Stony Silence 

1 Life from the Loam 


Sideboard:

3 Ethersworn Canonist 

2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite 

2 Umezawa's Jitte 

2 Anafenza, the Foremost 

1 Mayor of Avabruck 

1 Banisher Priest 

1 Containment Priest 

1 Gaea's Cradle 

1 Bojuka Bog 

1 Wasteland 


Wasteland had to make the cut since I didn't want to really cut a colored source, but that's fine, I have Life from the Loam to play it again.

[Guli]

I would only use the Cradle and 'big monsters' plan in the sideboard (because playing against Shops or Oath is a totally different world than playing against Mentor, other Aggro or Dredge). I would also bring in more 'hexproof on me' effects from the sideboard to nail combo or oath (or both) that coffin nice and tight.

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Containment Priest
3 Aegis of the Gods
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stony Silence
2 Swords to Plowshares


SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 2 Ancient Tomb
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I don't like Mother of Runes or Banishing Priest. I do like Karakas and Pridemage. I don't think you need Canonists. Some Plows would be welcome. I would emphasize the Cradle's in the sideboards. Even the Leylines are castable if they are topdecked, thanks to cradle.

[xouman]

I prefer guli's approach, seems quite consistent. However I'd do these custom changes (every player has his own little preferences):

-I'll Leave the Maze inthe sb. Unless you know you need it, you are not going for it, and when you realize you want it, can be too late.

-At least 1 true believer for an aegis. Aegis is overall better, but suffers from enchantment hate and the lone point of resistance can be important. However I could be wrong here.

-Qasali is one of the best bears ever printed, but has a GREAT problem: is not a human. So I'm not sure I'd include 3 in a human deck. However it's a wizard, so a humans-wizards deck can afford it.

-I'd include revokers in any deck attacking the manabase, and if you play thalias and stony silence, you are attacking manabase. Probably 2 for 1 stony silence and 1 knight/containment.

-3 cenobytes post side? Are you always siding confidants out when playing these in?

[msg67183]

I would only use the Cradle and 'big monsters' plan in the sideboard (because playing against Shops or Oath is a totally different world than playing against Mentor, other Aggro or Dredge). I would also bring in more 'hexproof on me' effects from the sideboard to nail combo or oath (or both) that coffin nice and tight.

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Containment Priest
3 Aegis of the Gods
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stony Silence
2 Swords to Plowshares


SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 2 Ancient Tomb
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I don't like Mother of Runes or Banishing Priest. I do like Karakas and Pridemage. I don't think you need Canonists. Some Plows would be welcome. I would emphasize the Cradle's in the sideboards. Even the Leylines are castable if they are topdecked, thanks to cradle.

We will have to agree to disagree, Mother of Runes is insane because it blanks spot removal as well as let you control combat very well. Banisher Priest is nuts as an uncounterable removal spell with a 2/2 body attached, with Mother in play it's nigh unkillable also. Priest also "combos" with Containment Priest to keep the creature exiled forever.
I am not a fan of 3 Elesh Norn in the board, that's just nuts with Bobs. I'll settle on my 2 Norn, 2 Jitte board plan.
Like what was already said, I love me some Cat Jesus, but I don't want him in a Humans deck.
Canonist is nuts against Storm based decks as well as Mentor decks, keeping both at bay. It's especially strong with a flipped Mayor.

[Stormanimagus]

I would only use the Cradle and 'big monsters' plan in the sideboard (because playing against Shops or Oath is a totally different world than playing against Mentor, other Aggro or Dredge). I would also bring in more 'hexproof on me' effects from the sideboard to nail combo or oath (or both) that coffin nice and tight.

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Containment Priest
3 Aegis of the Gods
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stony Silence
2 Swords to Plowshares


SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 2 Ancient Tomb
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I don't like Mother of Runes or Banishing Priest. I do like Karakas and Pridemage. I don't think you need Canonists. Some Plows would be welcome. I would emphasize the Cradle's in the sideboards. Even the Leylines are castable if they are topdecked, thanks to cradle.

We will have to agree to disagree, Mother of Runes is insane because it blanks spot removal as well as let you control combat very well. Banisher Priest is nuts as an uncounterable removal spell with a 2/2 body attached, with Mother in play it's nigh unkillable also. Priest also "combos" with Containment Priest to keep the creature exiled forever.
I am not a fan of 3 Elesh Norn in the board, that's just nuts with Bobs. I'll settle on my 2 Norn, 2 Jitte board plan.
Like what was already said, I love me some Cat Jesus, but I don't want him in a Humans deck.
Canonist is nuts against Storm based decks as well as Mentor decks, keeping both at bay. It's especially strong with a flipped Mayor.

I strongly disagree on pridemage. Just cause it isn't a human doesn't matter. They don't always have the counter or the chalice @2 (if you're facing shops). He's amazing utility game 1. The Banisher priest on top of containment is an interesting piece of tech however and I do like it. Especially with mother to help out.

My current list is this beasty:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Stony Silence
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Windswept Heath
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Karakas
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Mayor of Avabruck
SB: 1 Mayor of Avabruck
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 4 Mother of Runes
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter

I think chalice is way too synergistic and good not to run and it really helps vs. storm decks. Also, I'm not sure mother is maindeck material as there are only some decks where she'll be that relevant game 1. I've thought about her maindeck a lot, but I just don't know that she adds much until your opponent loads up on targeted removal for game 2. And, I think she's sooo game swinging game 2 and 3 that you should win with her being in there for just 2 games of the 3. I could be wrong, but that's my thought on her.

-Storm

[msg67183]

I've been thinking, if Elesh Norn is used for the Mentor decks and the like, why not try Engineered Plague? Against Mentor you choose Monk, against Dredge Zombie, Delver Wizard, etc. It seems plausible being only 3 mana over Norn's 7.

[Guli]

I don't want to play a 3cc enchantment that doesn't get the job done in most cases. Elesh is also a super mayor and even if they manage to plow it, you still sweeped the board and maybe got to swing with your Hategoyfs for a turn.

All this theorizing is great, but did someone actually test the plan with cradle/elesh? I put in 3 of each in the sb so you can also see if it works. I am not convinced that Elesh is castable even with Cradles and Tombs and whatever else mana dorks are in the deck.

If we all go test this and all report back after 20 games, we should have a sample that will give us an idea.


And another thing is, I think Chalice should be main deck, Storm is correct on this one, it gives us much more interaction on the play. In addition, I also think there should be Elvish Spirit Guide to further speed up the game plan. You can not rely on winning the die roll.


The following pile would be more in line with a list that I started calling 'Humans' in the very early lists that I designed with  the help of A_Duck. And I also tried to respect some of the card choices of the people who are currently working on this deck.

4 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Noble Hierarch

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Containment Priest
2 Aegis of the Gods
2 Qasali Pridemage

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Stony Silence
3 Chalice of the Void

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 3 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 2 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Ancient Tomb
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Mother of Runes
SB: 1 Karakas


I moved away from the 3 color versions and added blue at some point, and quickly added red as well. And then the 5C human deck was born. If I would revisit the more consistent and linear Human deck, this would be a good starting point.
 
To be honest I am more interested in the 5C Human list right now, it is more flexible, has more power, and it is a tad more fun to play with. But yea, that is preference i guess.

[Guli]

So guys/girls

About the 5C Human builds, right now I am innovating with Alesha and Tower. What do you guys think? I am doing crazy good things with them in testing.

Basically it is about using cards like Eternal Witness, Reclamation Sage, Stingscourger, Humble Defector and sacrificing them to add   . This happens to be what Alesha needs. The most important one is Orzhov Pontiff here, providing an answer to Pyromancer and even Monastery Mentor strategies if you can trigger it multiple times with Alesha. In a lot of situations however, I just pumped my army twice, because it simply killed my opponent. Pontiff is a dangerous card, the +1/+1 is many cases game ending. It actually has the 'Storm' mechanic on it in a way, because all the creatures you previously cast represent additional damage.




Thalia, she obviously lives in Karakas, got herself a sister. In a lot of my games Thalia & Alesha end up side by side swinging for 5 and there really isn't much that can stand in the way except for bigger threats. These are usually juicy Stinger targets so it all looks nice so far.



Not sure about many card choices so a list is not what you will get right now. For example debating if I want a lot artifact acceleration or not, do I want Chalice or Stony (or both), do I want to go down to 3 colors (RBW) or add green and blue for Nobles, Reclamation Sage, Recall/Walk, ...

Oh and I am still using Containment Priests alongside Alesha even though there is a conflict. The reason for this is that I am running additional sacrifice outlets and I see Priest as a counterspell and I will not cast it unless my opponent is on the Tinker plan, is dredging or wants to Oath. There are also those instances where you can use Priest as a blocker for an attacking Dark Confidant, Flash it in against Tangle wire, or just put an end of turn surprise 2/2 body on the table.

It is a world of possibilities, exactly the terrain where I can thrive, but it will take some time to come up with this new 2015 build.

Feel free to use earlier shells as a starting point and come up with your own version. What happened is that the Oath of Ghouls plan is now the Alesha plan and you aren't using Ingot but things that can be reanimated with Alesha.


Guli

[xouman]

I'm really intrigued about Alesha. I haven't decided if it's a real playable creature (as Tasigur is showing lately) or just a good perspective without real quality (as Nivmagus elemental has shown up to date).

3 mana is quite a lot for this kind of creature, plus having to pay 2 colored more next turn. First strike is nice but I'm unsure how much. My gut suggests several approaches:

RB, with faithless looting, unearth, cabal therapy, discard, magus of the moon, buried alive, mindstab thrull (I got my playset lots of years ago but never played it), dark confidant, bloodghast, flamespeaker... Probably not good enough because the beating is based on small creatures, but has some good synergies.

The other approach in my mind is trying to maximize trinket and auriok salvagers. Taking black from dark bomberman and adding red we can have communist bomberman, adding alesha, pirite and fayden instead tutors and nihil. Not sure which version is better, and alesha feels like she is slowing things. On the other side red improves MUD pairing and probably aggro matches too (alesha is a good blocker and recovers chumblockers/combo). Losing nihil is hard, but I can hardly justify black if I still play white, blue and red. However I'm not sure if UWr improves UW.


Your version looks really good, pyrexian tower and alesha look awesome, and once in play other creatures are really powerful. The real deal is to make the deck consisten when you cannot have both cards in play together, or get a long play to have both.

[serracollector]

Imperial Recruiter seems like a good add in at that point as well as stoneforge and skullclamp I would think. Should keep your threat density up high while still keeping it mostly creatures.

[fsecco]

I also don't know about Alesha. It feels like it could be a 1-of, utility creature, but the fact it isn't tutorable by Imperial Recruiter makes that sound not that good.

As a 3-4-of I still have to find out. It seems really slow and mana hungry and all I can think of doing with her sounds too cute to be good (Phyrexian Tower seems nice, though). She seems like a good add to try and revive creature to keep pressure, but at the same time you can't rely on reviving utility creatures like Thalia and Confidant if they're going to die immediately. I mean, Thalia and Confidant are good attacking sometimes, specially with Noble Hierarchs on the table. But most of the time you will hold them back so they won't die in combat. With Alesha bringing her back you don't have that option. So, if you're behind in board presence, Alesha probably won't bring you back.

I guess if I had to start testing a 4 Alesha deck, it would start with 4 Alesha and 4 Prophetic Flamespeaker, since that's probably the best creature she could return to play.

[serracollector]

Like Guli was saying you bring in other utility creatures like stingscorger or something that bolts a creature or man o war or avalanche riders or imperial recruiter or even nekrataal. Who knows whats possible.

[Guli]

I was trying Alesha in a Bazaar/Riftstone shell (Riftstone is another land that turns on Alesha ( ).

Many things are possible, and 3 mana is not really hard to get for a card that single handily outplays Workshop decks. Remember that Oath of Ghouls was  was not able to favorably block Lodestone Golem while doing its thing with Ingot. With a Bazaar engine, the Alesha can do her work without you having to cast anything, completely bypassing sphere effects.

Today, I was thinking on using Veteran Explorer (I plan on playing 3 Phyrexian tower and 3 Alesha main deck). Veteran should be at least in the sideboard to combat Workshop comfortably. Not just to fight shops but against any deck where you can say they are not on many basics. I did some searching for a 1 casting cost Human to fill in the curve. Not many great outstanding choices. Turn 1 Veteran with Cavern of Souls into a turn 2 Phyrexian Tower opens up some very interesting lines of play (access to 5 mana with a Cavern on Humans). Maybe it could be a main deck thing. Then the question is, what do you run out for 5 mana that is powerful enough that those potential 2 basics would not matter. Whatever it is, it also has to be playable without the veteran/tower combo at our disposal. Prophet of Kruphix might be a thing.

[brianpk80]

Intriguingly, she can bring into play Magus of the Future.  

I do think this is another example of an excellent card from the Khans block.  Human Fish is a good deck and I feel it is just waiting on one or more really busted Humans to go over the top.  I had high hopes for the archetype prior to the release of Theros, with all of its attendant hype, and ended up so disgusted by that set I switched to blue and never looked back.  What happens too often is that with idea starting hands (Cavern, Mox, Thalia, Waste), the game too often ends up at that same point where the opponent stabilizes at approx. 6-8 life and just goes off.  While Alesha is not the ultimate answer for this conundrum (probably a 4 power additional Sphere effect Human in the 3 CMC slot is), she does advance the archetype in ways until such a creature is printed.  Oath of Ghouls is clearly Vintage playable as evidenced by numerous successful  incarnations of Fish, particularly the 4-5 color builds 2 years ago.  Alesha is in many ways a strict upgrade given the way the deck operates.  It is never symmetrical so Deathrite is not a requirement.  It is not an enchantment that can be countered and can cost more due to Thalia; it comes into play off Cavern with no additional tax.  Then the fact that they gave her first strike and 3 power puts it in the Vintage sweet spot of profitably blocking Golem and surviving, something we see with very few non-Tinkered/Oathed creatures, aside from Porcelain Legionnaire.  

So this card definitely has potential.  It fuses nicely with Dack Fayden who is excellent in Thalia Humans to steal acceleration, cycle extra Thalias, and curve out at Notion Thief.  Alesha can put Phyrexian Metamorph, Phyrexian Revoker, and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV into play for BB.  Mega-Human Tasigur can fill the yard with critters. The Phyrexian Tower has independent utility in an Oath match-up and to destroy Bridges.

I like your ideas Guli, good luck with them!

[fsecco]

Wow, forgot about Magus of the Future and Grand Arbiter... now we're talking!

[xouman]

Featuring Alesha, sin collector is on color and quite interesting to prevent brokeness on the other side of the table. And then cabal therapy comes quite easy.

T2/3: alesha
T3/4: sin collector, sacrifice collector to tower, recover collector with alesha


However I agree with brian that lots of times creature decks stall at a certain point, and despite taking a good bunch of lives, they don't close the game. I don't know the proper solution, if playing bigger creatures, try to go for an alpha strike, some kind of combo, harder mana denial...

[Guli]

I disagree with Brian's assessment on Thalia. You don't just go off when there is a Thalia in play. Not early and not later. It all depends if your artifact mana base can survive. There can also be a second sphere effect. I don't really have these issue of closing games anymore. Either I do my thing and win the game, or my opponent has a nuts opening hand and does all the things I want to prevent before I can prevent them.

My view is that Thalia in the mid to late game can still be as effective as early game when you have cards like Stony Silence, Strip lock, Gorilla Shaman, Thorn of A., Grand August IV, ...

Just running 4 Thalia in a deck and nothing else will indeed have little impact.



Sin Collector is a very interesting one, good catch! This might even be that 3 casting cost Human Brian is trying to fill in. It does not have to be another sphere effect, it can also be a hand disruption effect. Xouman, very nice man, this one I overlooked!


I have been doing Strip/Loam with Crop Rotation as well in my recent lists. The downside of Crop Rotation is minimal in a deck with Deathrite Shaman, Life from the Loam and enough lands with cheap spells in the deck. The upside is that you get to play with more Caverns, get a fast strip/loam lock, get that Tower when you have the Alesha online, get Karakas, and you can run some specific lands as sideboard tech.

So you have recurring Thalia's, Strip Mine, Artifact and Enchantment destruction, Hand disruption (exile is really neat!) and a Regrowth effect (Eternal Witness) to occasionally combo with Time Walk/Alesha.

Sounds like there is a lot of value there. The trick is to make it all go smooth and so far that is kinda working out as well with Deathrite, Thalia, Gorilla Shaman, Thorns, ... From there you could go into the mid game with a Bazaar/Loam engine and Alesha/Valuebears.

[StanleyAugust]

Hmm, I'm not sold. I'd rather focus on making the deck efficient and closing the games rather than semi good synergies who don't do much on their own. As someone else mentioned, the main issue is that your opponent too often stabilizes at 6-8 life so I'd rather focus on locking him out or killing him faster than bringing synergies to the table that aren't useful in the early game. Also, this setup is using reative rather proactive answers which I'm not fond of. I like the idea, I just think you'll find that the "combo" simply isn't efficient enough. A deck like this simply can't afford to run cards that are dead on their own, because the power level is so low.

[Guli]

Hmm, I'm not sold. I'd rather focus on making the deck efficient and closing the games rather than semi good synergies who don't do much on their own. As someone else mentioned, the main issue is that your opponent too often stabilizes at 6-8 life so I'd rather focus on locking him out or killing him faster than bringing synergies to the table that aren't useful in the early game. Also, this setup is using reative rather proactive answers which I'm not fond of.

These effects are very powerful, a Sage on a mox, A Collector exiling Tinker, Regrowth that Strip Mine, ... What I like most is that these cards are already efficient, Alesha and Tower makes them even more powerful.

I don't know what is being insinuated by closing the game but, Alesha has 3 power and she does give haste to something with 2 power when reanimating. That is not a small clock with spheres in play.

[fsecco]

If you're going into the Loam plan, Fastbond seems like a nice adition. Makes it easier to ramp up to abuse Alesha.

I think some kind of draw engine like Prophetic Flamespeaker or Magus of the Future are required, though.

[brianpk80]

I tested against Guli yesterday and many of the ideas (and the clock) were impressive.  It seemed to be about 50/50 against my Tasigur list that won the Bloomsburg event on Saturday and then split first on Sunday.  That said, if gauging how it performs against broken blue, I think some of the results were skewed by the fact my win-cons were peculiarly unable to perform simply by virtue of Karakas being on the table.  Half of the losses weren't due to mana denial or the opponent's intended gameplan executing perfectly, but rather from being uniquely prevented from playing my own win-cons by that silly land, a problem an Auriok deck, Tinker deck, or Vault/Key list would not have.  I would have had the game locked up had I been able to simply play my Tasigur and stave off ground assaults as I would v. any other deck, but Karakas makes that impossible.  It's not as much of a problem for Talrand who can appear and still make Drakes with instant speed Gushing, holding priority and Probing, but it was very uncomfortable for Tasigur.  I boarded one out each time; Karakas was that bad. 

[serracollector]

You mean it was that good. Btw I think Alesha really shines with the exile guys like relic warder and fiend hunter more than anything allowing you to simply remove unwanted blockers and troublesome things.