Pain Seer

[vaughnbros]

Well I'm fairly sure this card will see some play... very similar to bob, slightly less powerful, but significantly less risky.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This guy + aura of dominion = 1 mana, draw a card.  In the two best colors.  Not so great separate, but could be busted together.

Springleaf drum/paradise mantle/any tap equip or enchantment with a decent effect also gets some use out of this guy.

[Demagoguery]

I don't know, I feel like he will see play, but he's a turn slower than Bob... You play him, wait for your turn, attack, and then when he untaps next turn you get the card.

I can see him being Bob 5-X in some decks, like the Human deck since he gets buffs from Mayor and stuff, while providing more card advantage, and having the right creature type. He might do something cute with Ral Zerak, since he's not terrible alone, and can do cute things with the Seer.

As sad as it is, I almost wish you could have him enter play tapped if you wished.

[vaughnbros]

This guy + aura of dominion = 1 mana, draw a card.  In the two best colors.  Not so great separate, but could be busted together.

Springleaf drum/paradise mantle/any tap equip or enchantment with a decent effect also gets some use out of this guy.

Yeh there are a number of cards that can be used to guarantee hes active, but I'm not sure they are actually needed.  

Bob is typically attacking the first few turns anyway, which is when the effect is most powerful.  Also the number of games bob kills people or put players into bad positions because they couldn't turn him off is not negligible.  The card certainly has potential to be as good as bob in some decks for these reasons.

[forests failed you]

Pretty neat combo with Ral Zarek. 

[JarofFortune]

This really doesn't compare to Bob at all. The fact that you have to wait TWO turns before you can net a card off it, and that that won't even happen if they have a better board state than you, makes this card virtually unplayable. A lot can happen when they are given a whole extra turn of card parity. That gives your opponent  another draw step for a removal spell or a key card. The reason Dark Confidant is so good is that it is a one card draw engine that unconditionally draws you an extra card every turn. There is absolutely no reason to dilute your deck with mediocre cards just to make this work. Yes, this card with something like Aura of dominion is cute, but are you really going to try to make room in your deck for an aura?  There are more consistent two card combos in Vintage that will straight up win you the game, such as Vault-Key and Doomsday-Gush. I really just don't think that running this guy is worth it, when you can just run Dark Confidant.

[tribet]

Maybe some deck where you can slow role, tap stuff, untap Bazaar & Pain Seer... clear for the path with this:


It's all during your turn, pretty slow tech... not quite Vintage. Maybe an UB aggro/control:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Fatestitcher
4 Hidden Strings

4 Dark Confidant
4 Pain Seer
4 Blood Scrivener
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Circular Logic
4 Big Game Hunter

4 Cabal Therapy
...

[zeus-online]

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[xouman]

At first, I saw a new confidant. Yes, a new confidant (all creatures untap each turn, right?) But then, this creature have to wait a full turn to draw and extra card, and to be untapped it would probably need to attack first, but since creatures are common nowadays, it'll likely be blocked and die.

Springleaf drum seems a decent tool, and playable in some decks. Maybe there are other synergistic cards, playables alone.

[gkraigher]

i was thinking more cards like earthcraft and opposition to abuse this guy.  

maybe there is budget earthcarft vintage deck now with Squirrel Nest and pain seer.  

opposition is interesting in legacy.  it actually would brick the sneak and show decks out there, and would be pretty good against the batterskull decks as well.  


they made a good printing on this card.  it's perfectly fair and opens up new archetypes.  you are not going to attack with this guy, you need to find other ways to abuse this ability.  the fact that he doesn't have to kill you is a huge bonus.  

[mmcgeach]

I think its one of those cards like baleful strix which is pretty close to vintage relevant on its own, but with tezzeret agent of bolas makes them both better.  Sure strix + TAoB aren't top-tier vintage staples, but that's where i'd expect this guy + Ral Zarek to end up.  Ral Zarek is pretty good in vintage now: he kills jace, he kills almost every creature, and he combo's with time vault.  It might get better with Pain Seer.

[quicksilvervii]

The card has potential, but I am having a tough time finding a home for it just based on theory.

Is this card better than bob?
I'm going with no.

Would I play more bobs?
Maybe, unlikely.  I only like having 1 on the table personally, 2 to me gets risky.

Would I play more bobs if half of them were inconsistently active?
Doubtful.

[Guli]

At first, I saw a new confidant. Yes, a new confidant (all creatures untap each turn, right?) But then, this creature have to wait a full turn to draw and extra card, and to be untapped it would probably need to attack first, but since creatures are common nowadays, it'll likely be blocked and die.

Springleaf drum seems a decent tool, and playable in some decks. Maybe there are other synergistic cards, playables alone.

I was thinking similarly. He doesn't seem to give the same guarantee that Dark Confidant gives us. However he has the potential to draw more than 1 per turn. A deck with Devout Chaplain and Scryb ranger or just exalted with nobe and boost from mayor and pump the card up. Maze of Ith also seems nice with this. there are probably a lot of other options that will come up while brainstorming and testing this card. I think the card will see play, it can give value. I have done a serious amount of experimenting with Humans now, and I can safely say that this card could be used succesfully. The extra thoughness matters and could be the very reason that it pulls through despite the presence of Dark Confidant. I am not super optimistic, but I do smell potential.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Thought experiment: is there any situation where you'd rather be able to untap this an unlimited number of times rather than Time Vault?

[boggyb]

One idea I haven't heard yet: Dark Confidant is an extremely good card. And it's even more powerful in multiples, especially in a deck well-equipped to play a tempo game. One Bob puts you ahead, but two put together end the game after one turn, usually. I'm pretty sure that if you untap this card once with a Bob or another one of these in play in a tempo deck, you will win most of the time.

In other words: this is a worse Dark Confidant, but is that effect so good that it's worth running 1-4 more of them, especially in a tempo-oriented deck? Sort of like Imperial Seal -- Vamp is six times better than Seal but that effect is so good that Seal sees play in decks that are hungry for it.

One thing I've noticed a lot of Magic players do (myself, especially, included) is underestimate synergies and pure card advantage, because those kinds of effects are so much harder to think about and quantify. This is one of the reasons people routinely underestimate planeswalkers, for example. This card fits that bill and I wouldn't discount it right away -- it has a high upside and is very much worth trying to break.

[gkraigher]

Thought experiment: is there any situation where you'd rather be able to untap this an unlimited number of times rather than Time Vault?

you can do this with mind over matter, but it seems like this would always come up short.  pain seer doesn't seem like a card that should be in a deck with mind over matter anyway.  


here is an intersting card for modern

[MaximumCDawg]

I went through the Gatherer and came up with the same thing you guys did: Aura of Dominion.  Grabbed a foil playset just in case, before the speculators think through the implications of Inspired.

Guli hit the nail on the head: This guy is worse than Bob if you just want a 1B draw engine because he's slower and conditional.  However, if you have a way to abuse him, he can draw you multiple cards per turn, so he is potentially a better engine piece.  I'm not sure that the power of him plus Mind Over Matter; to go nuts you need a way to tap him as well as untap him, and that's not great.

Aura of Dominion, however, seems like the real deal.  Particularly in Modern.  And it's not just Pain Seer, either; check out the other Inspired cards.  Each of them actually seems pretty busted with Aura stuck on them.  I predict that, if they print one other good, cheap inspired card in U or B, you will see a competitive Modern deck out of this that stalls with Aura, accelerates with Drum or Mantle, and then "goes off" with something like that massive blue Inspired creature.

EDIT: Also, note that this card can be "turned off" by the controller, unlike Bob.  So it does not give you a downside if you are low on life.  This is not trivial.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Doesn't seem better than add nauseam.

[Demagoguery]

I think the right home for this guy is 4C Humans, where the have Mayor and Exalted to keep him attacking in. I don't think he's replacing Confidant any time soon, but as a 2 of he can be pretty good in addition to Confidant.

Thought experiment: is there any situation where you'd rather be able to untap this an unlimited number of times rather than Time Vault?

Well that's kind of a weird question, since it's not really mutually exclusive. If anything, something like Ral Zerak is what this card would want, since not only does it untap him, but also untaps Time Vault, and if you can untap him an unlimited number of times, you can draw enough cards to get to Time Vault and win by then untapping the Vault.

Additionally I don't think his power will come from being untapped an unlimited number of times, since then Ad Nauseam is probably just better, but rather from being able to play well along side cards that do well with Time Vault, as he can gain advantage off those while also producing some himself without them.  

Edit: So rather than looking at it as a broken card, it's better to look at it as a fair card that generates some advantage.

[Saya]

This is a quality card,but seems kinda awkward.If you run this guy as a draw combo engine(for instance with aura of dominion indicated above),its life loss would be too heavy.If you run it as a single advantage source,just play confidant.Only limited decks will need pain seer - like monoblack or ad nauserm(restrain total cmc of the entire deck).

[Guli]

Thought experiment: is there any situation where you'd rather be able to untap this an unlimited number of times rather than Time Vault?

Not every deck cares about the Vault win condition. Because they don't need such a win condition, or can not run it, or they do not want to be vulnerable to artifact removal. I think a Vault deck is all about the tutor capabilities. So if you aren't really high on tutors, the Vault plan becomes less attractive.

And I think the Aura plan is awfull. You want to attack with this guy or use it with cards that are already good. Pain Seer does make Devout Chaplain more viable guys, I would not dismiss this.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I dunno. If you can untap each turn, combo out with Vault. If you want infi Confidant triggers, Ad Nauseam. Not clear to me that this is ever best.

[Guli]

But if your strategy is beatdown, which is inherently untapping unless you have vigilance, I don't see why you would want to compare to a combo plan. The trick is to never go all in with cards like Pain Seer, but instead use already existing strong cards which will do their job without connecting with Seer. So Seer should be a splash or addon that makes a card like Maze of Ith more valuable. You also get a 2/2 Human which is nice with Cavern of Souls and Mayor.

I am not all 'wooohoo' about finding a fantastic combo with the card.

[zeus-online]

.

[MTGFan]

I don't see why this can't just be Dark Confidant 5-8 in an aggro strategy.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Because three turns (1 to play, 1 to attack, draw on the third) is forever in Vintage. This thing is a black grizzly bear outside of a combo.

[Guli]

Because three turns (1 to play, 1 to attack, draw on the third) is forever in Vintage. This thing is a black grizzly bear outside of a combo.

Not true if you have either tap or untap effects (both work). As an example here are two cards:





We just need more cards like Maze of Ith, cards that are Vintage relevant in a way they disrupt a key strategy of the opponent while giving Pain Seer what it needs to shine.

[vaughnbros]

I agree that this card seems much better suited for aggro, like grixis delver, 4C humans, BUG fish and the like.  To them this card is so similar to bob that it allows them to essentially play up to 8 bobs.  

I dunno. If you can untap each turn, combo out with Vault. If you want infi Confidant triggers, Ad Nauseam. Not clear to me that this is ever best.

The combo people are talking about is not really comparable at all with ad nauseam... ad naus you have to do all in one go with the combo you can do in intervals, using top to reduce damage as well as doing it end of turn and a number of other interactions.  That being said I don't think the aura combo is worth it in vintage that seems like more of a modern combo.  Other reusable twiddle effects seem more powerful to combo with him since they double to combo with top and vault.

Because three turns (1 to play, 1 to attack, draw on the third) is forever in Vintage. This thing is a black grizzly bear outside of a combo.

I suppose all the curiosity creatures have always been terrible too.  I mean finkel and cold eyed selkie are just 1 power 3 mana evasion creatures, ophidian is 3 mana no power no evasion creature, ect...  The effect of this card is somewhere laid between the curiosity creatures and bob since an attack isnt necessarily required, but is the easiest way to activate him.  What makes him closer to bob in power level though is that he is 2 mana for a 2/2, whereas all previous incarnations of curiosity creatures were 3 mana for a similar body.

[Guli]

This cheap white enchantment has been on my radar ever since I spotted it.



The upsides of the cards have been discussed here already: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44223.0


The card is already good to play in a deck that wants to tap creatures to deal damage. But having access to Pain Seer in the near future, you could definately play 1 Reconnaissance with 4 Pain Seer. Thalia's first strike also likes the Maze of Ith effect (you can deal FS dmg and then remove from combat). I like these combat tactics. Therefore I want to put another cheap enchantment that allows for tactics and could be used to clear the path or to do some tap tricks.



Looks like another interesting card in decks loaded with creatures and 4x Pain Seer around. You can always tap the Seer itself if you want, but you can also use the card to tap blockers so the Seer can swing. It is the kind of tempo I am looking for with a card like Seer. Add in some flash creatures and you can do some tapping on their turn.


Lastly I like the triggers Derevi can provide.




Well that is it from me, sorry if I let my imagination go wild, but hey that is me.
Peace

[orgcandman]

This card is not comparable to confidant. Also, I'm not sure that Aura is the right way to go with it either. For 2UUB you draw a card and lose a life. For 3BB you can do the same (and keep going: ad nauseam - get it?).

This card is clearly good; it might just be waiting for a good home around it. It's probably meant as a way to get a cheaper confidant into Modern without being a functional replacement (and in that respect, it will succeed). I know there must be something waiting to abuse this - but I have to believe there's a better mechanism waiting for it than just sleeving up auras.