Grixis Delver

[Soly]

I was working on an article for this to submit to Eternal Central, but real life right now is really getting in the way of my abilities to produce quality content that is formal enough for that proces.     However, I have been playing around for a couple months now with a Delver deck that I believe (and have great testing results to back up) is a real contender in the current metagame.

The reason I switched from RUG to Grixis is two-fold.   
1.  The utility of black spells.
a)  Deathrite Shaman:   This card has proven itself to be one of the best creatures ever printed.  Jaco refers to this card as the 1 mana Planeswalker, and I see why.  His black ability gives a TON of reach, and his Mana Ability actually allows you to support 3 and 4 mana spells better than RUG Delver. His green ability is pretty irrelevant in most matchups, and not worth the green splash.
b) Thoughtseize:   I believe this card is one of the best cards in the format right now.  In a deck like Delver, playing thoughtseize against Workshops actually isn't that bad, but it really shines against Oath of Druids, which has seen a real upswing lately.   It also actually makes your blue-based control matchup even better. 
c) Tutors:   I think this one is self-explanatory
d) Utility Spells(Snuff Out/Yixlid Jailer).   With aggro on the upswing, having more removal is never a bad idea.  Yixlid Jailer is also one of the best Dredge Haters right now with everyone obsessing over breaking cages. 
  The only downside to this is you cannot play Ancient Grudge, but you get so many more answers, and this deck can actually beat the Forgemaster and Steel Hellkite versions of that deck.
2. Young Pyromancer and True-Name Nemesis invalidate Tarmogoyf.  Tarmogoyf is the most efficient 2 mana beater ever printed.  I doubt another card will be printed at that mana.  However,  outside Oath of Druids, Aggro decks were actually RUG Devler's toughest matchup.  They usually played more creatures than you did, and could remove yours.  The new aggro deck of choice can just attack and walk right past the Green Monster.  Plus Abrupt Decay is on the rise.   
Young Pyromancer goes on defese so much better than Tarmogoyf does.  an unanswered young pyromancer will almost always assure you can block anything that doesn't trample.
True-Name Nemesis is criminally underplayed right now.  RUG Delver did a great job of invalidating Jace the Mindsculptor, but this card does that better than anything RUG can play.
You're going to argue "But Soly, RUG Delver can play True-Name Nemesis too, and it already does play Young Pyromancer!".  You are correct, however with Deathrite Shaman, you can actually reilably cast True-Name Nemesis on Turn 2.  Also, RUG delver really likes Vendilion Clique (kudos to AJ for taking 2nd not playing them;  I would never cut this card from RUG though), whereas with Thoughtseize, you can have perfect information at 1/3 the cost of the Wizard.

Here is the list I am testing.   Feel free to make your tweaks;  it's just a starting point but the list has been very solid so far:

2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Steel Sabotage
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer


 

[vaughnbros]

I piloted grixis delver about a year ago to a couple of top 8's in 20 man tournaments.  Here is the list (updated with young pyromancer):

Creatures:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage

Instants/Sorceries:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Dismember
2 Mental Misstep
2 Steel Sabotage
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain

Mana Sources:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

SB:
1 Snuff Out
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Flusterstorm

Dark confidant was pretty much the only reason I was playing black over green.  I'd be interested in hearing why you didn't include him in your list.  I found it had a good match up against everything except for workshops, which was only a bad match up because the mana count needs to be so low to support gush/delver.  The route you've gone by adding 4 deathrite+1 Jace is interesting as it gives the deck a late game aspect, which other builds of delver don't really have.  Deathrite also ups the number of mana sources possibly correcting that problem against workshops.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I piloted grixis delver about a year ago to a couple of top 8's in 20 man tournaments.  Here is the list (updated with young pyromancer):

Creatures:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage

Instants/Sorceries:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Dismember
2 Mental Misstep
2 Steel Sabotage
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Time Walk
4 Preordain

Mana Sources:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

SB:
1 Snuff Out
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Flusterstorm

Dark confidant was pretty much the only reason I was playing black over green.  I'd be interested in hearing why you didn't include him in your list.  I found it had a good match up against everything except for workshops, which was only a bad match up because the mana count needs to be so low to support gush/delver.  The route you've gone by adding 4 deathrite+1 Jace is interesting as it gives the deck a late game aspect, which other builds of delver don't really have.  Deathrite also ups the number of mana sources possibly correcting that problem against workshops.

I'd strongly suspect the answer is "does not ramp into true name"(deathrite competition) or "too many 5cc"

[StanleyAugust]

Yup, Confidant is the reason why you want to play black. Not Deathrite, he doesn't do much for this kind of deck. I've been playing something to vaughnbros' list although without Gush and with Cavern og Souls. It's pretty good. The main issue is the lack os main deck answers vs workshop.

[zeus-online]

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[Stormanimagus]

I suspect that the answers lies in "Do you really need more card draw?". With gush and preordains this deck should have enough business. DC also does damage to you, which might seem irrelevant...except that Soly expressively stated that aggro decks where his worst match up. Playing with Dark confidant also limits your options in other ways, since he has bad synergy with cards like Snuff out.

I must be the only person who thinks Dark confidant is overplayed (Is that even a word?)

Don't get me wrong i think its one of the best creatures ever printed, but everyone seems to ignore the very real downside of playing DC.

Seconded. I've never agreed with running Confidant in a deck that also runs 8x 5CMC spells. I especially feel this way because this list doesn't run an explosive "win now" type of card so it really needs to spend some number of turns to win every game and turns can = death with an active bob or two.

-Storm

[vaughnbros]

I suspect that the answers lies in "Do you really need more card draw?". With gush and preordains this deck should have enough business. DC also does damage to you, which might seem irrelevant...except that Soly expressively stated that aggro decks where his worst match up. Playing with Dark confidant also limits your options in other ways, since he has bad synergy with cards like Snuff out.

Yes you could always use more card draw.  This is a deck which has a curve of mostly 1 drops every card you draw is used rather quickly.  On top of that preordain nets no extra cards and gush only 1 extra, so its not exactly like you have the ability to refill your hand at will.  He states that RUG delver has a bad match up against creatures, not Grixis delver.

I especially feel this way because this list doesn't run an explosive "win now" type of card so it really needs to spend some number of turns to win every game and turns can = death with an active bob or two.

This doesnt even make any sense... If I didn't plan on playing at least a few turns why would I be playing dark confidant?  His value is in that he draws you cards over time.  It doesn't really need a win now.  This whole deck is geared to win as soon as possible.  It is an aggro deck after all.

I've never agreed with running Confidant in a deck that also runs 8x 5CMC spells.

Taking a lava axe or 2 or even 3 isn't a big deal for a deck that not only wants to, but really needs to end the game early.  If we look at even Soly's list many of the 4 ofs get worse as the game goes on, including Lighting Bolt, Force of Will, Delver, and Thoughtseize.  When you add in that your opponent can top deck into cards that you dont have good answers for, like tinker/yawg will/oath/wurmcoil/triskelion/ect., the longer the game goes the worse position you are in.

[zeus-online]

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[d8dk32]

I think this deck is geared towards being able to play a longer game. The Deathrites and the added Jace are indicative of that. Dark Confidant in a deck with 8 5cc cards in a deck intended to support a longer game isn't really that great. He'll take too much out of your life total. And the cards that get worse as the game goes long, like Bolt and Thoughtseize, get an extra bit of usefulness from deathrite.

[WhiteLotus]

I suspect that the answers lies in "Do you really need more card draw?". With gush and preordains this deck should have enough business. DC also does damage to you, which might seem irrelevant...except that Soly expressively stated that aggro decks where his worst match up. Playing with Dark confidant also limits your options in other ways, since he has bad synergy with cards like Snuff out.

Yes you could always use more card draw.  This is a deck which has a curve of mostly 1 drops every card you draw is used rather quickly.  On top of that preordain nets no extra cards and gush only 1 extra, so its not exactly like you have the ability to refill your hand at will.  He states that RUG delver has a bad match up against creatures, not Grixis delver.

I especially feel this way because this list doesn't run an explosive "win now" type of card so it really needs to spend some number of turns to win every game and turns can = death with an active bob or two.

This doesnt even make any sense... If I didn't plan on playing at least a few turns why would I be playing dark confidant?  His value is in that he draws you cards over time.  It doesn't really need a win now.  This whole deck is geared to win as soon as possible.  It is an aggro deck after all.

I've never agreed with running Confidant in a deck that also runs 8x 5CMC spells.

Taking a lava axe or 2 or even 3 isn't a big deal for a deck that not only wants to, but really needs to end the game early.  If we look at even Soly's list many of the 4 ofs get worse as the game goes on, including Lighting Bolt, Force of Will, Delver, and Thoughtseize.  When you add in that your opponent can top deck into cards that you dont have good answers for, like tinker/yawg will/oath/wurmcoil/triskelion/ect., the longer the game goes the worse position you are in.

Your list has a similar average CMC than a grixis control list but you don't have ways of controlling of what your bobs flip with SDT or Jace. You also don't have the possibility to win on the spot, meaning your bob is actually racing your own clock and with 8x 5ccm looks like he's got a real chance.

Also there are a few things that don't really make sense, for one you've dedicated 14 slots for card drawing, but only 6 slots for permission. So your essentially drawing more card-drawing cards and 2 ccm creatures than answers, in a deck that's supposed to disrupt the opponent to create tempo in order to win with a few but very efficient beaters (although soly's list looks like it might be meant to be slightly more grindy/controlish than Rug delver is).
By the way if Rug delver has a hard time in aggro match ups, it's certainly doesn't change when you trade gofys for bobs and choose against interacting with your opponent to draw more cards that don't really do anything relevant in most cases.

I'm also interested on knowing why you think demonic consultation is better than Demonic Tutor, do you think Timewalk to be a bad tutor target for a deck so dependent on tempo ? You're also cutting your self from the possibility of playing 1of answers that you can tutor up if/when needed.
Furthermore, your reasoning about your decks's game plan seems to be contradictory with itself > My deck wants (you even said needs) to win fast, but dark confidant helps my game plan cause he's got awesome value over turns.
Soly's list has very good answers to Oath, Tinker, wurmcoil, Yawgwill:  Jace, True name nemesis, Deathrite shaman, Ancient grudge. Jace also contradicts your theory of his deck getting worse in the long game and not being able to refill his hand (Not that i'm familar with playing it, but I don't think that usually, those are primary concerns to a delver's list strategy; I suppose he included Jace for certain match ups/Game states,it's great flexibility and it allows him to do things he couldn't with Rug delve,r apart from it being one of the best 4 ccm blue spells in the format, and the fact that Deathrite shaman makes him playable).

Sorry if I'm being harsh in my tone sometimes, it wasn't my intention, but it's the blunt truth, and seeing as you've chosen to argue against Soly's build, I guess you were ready for arguments to be made the other way

EDIT: I changed my post so it would be less agressive, but conveying the same arguments in a better way, I also didn't mean to disrupt soly's presentation of his new idea sorry if I was out of bounds here.

[vaughnbros]

Yes you could always use more card draw.  This is a deck which has a curve of mostly 1 drops every card you draw is used rather quickly.  On top of that preordain nets no extra cards and gush only 1 extra, so its not exactly like you have the ability to refill your hand at will.  He states that RUG delver has a bad match up against creatures, not Grixis delver.

Need and use are not synonymous. Every card you play excludes another card.
And you assume that Grixis has a better match up because of the name? I am certain that Soly considered Dark confidant and i will await his response.

I am making no such assumption.  I say this because I have empirical evidence.  I played the deck for a few months and in that time I've crushed many aggro decks even with bobs in the list.  Compared with other aggro decks it either has more removal, a faster clock, and/or more card advantage.  It wins those match ups by playing to those strong suites.  RUG delver plays more artifact and enchantment hate in the main deck that are essentially dead cards in the aggro match ups, and also doesn't necessarily have better card advantage without the inclusion of bob.

Your list has a similar average CMC than a grixis control list but you don't have ways of controlling of what your bobs flip with SDT or Jace. You also don't have the possibility to win on the spot, meaning your bob is actually racing your own clock and with 8x 5ccm looks like he's got a real chance.

The difference is that Grixis control lists have to play on the defensive against aggro decks, whereas delver is always the aggressor when life totals matter.  They also need to ability to win with bob and time vault therefore needing deck manipulation whereas this deck doesn't.

Also there are a few things that don't really make sense, for one you've dedicated 14 slots for card drawing, but only 6 slots for permission. So your essentially drawing more card drawing cards and 2 ccm creatures than answers, in a deck that's supposed to disrupt the opponent to create tempo in order to win with a few but very efficient beaters (although soly's list looks like it might be meant to be slightly more grindy/controlish than Rug delver)

Steel sabotage isn't a counter spell?  Dismember is also another disruption piece in the main deck.  Making the two decks actually have comparable amounts of disruption, 10 pieces each.

I'm also interested on knowing why you think demonic consultation is better than Demonic Tutor, cause Timewalk is such a bad tempo card and playing 1of answers that you can tutor up are bad right?

A 2 mana sorcery to find 1 card is a huge tempo loss.  A 1 mana instant though is not.  Typically it finds lightning bolt, bob, or in rare situations a 2-of answer/force of will.

Doesn't it bother you that your reasoning seems to be contradictory with itself? > My deck wants (you even said needs) to win fast, but dark confidant helps my game plan cause he's got awesome value over turns, plus it's not like my deck needs to win now, it's an aggro (tempo) deck after all, and if Rug delver has a hard time in aggro match ups, it's certainly not true when you trade gofys for bobs.

I don't believe the reasoning to be contradictory.  Bob is a turn 1 or 2 play and the decks critical turn is around 5.  Turn 5 is still relatively fast.  In such a situation this gives you 3+ bob flips and 3+ bob attacks providing 6+ damage and 3+ cards for 2 mana and some life, which is a ton of value.  Decks playing vault/key and bsc aren't playing bob because he has great synergy with them, they are playing them together because they are all powerful cards individually.

Soly's list has very good answers to Oath, Tinker, wurmcoil, Yawgwill:  Jace, True name nemesis, Deathrite shaman, Ancient grudge.

Yes he has answers to them as does my list, but TNN is a 2-of, grudge and jace singletons.  Deathrite also doesn't necessarily shut off yawg will.  The point is though that these cards are serious threats unless you happen to have the 1 or 2 answers in your hand or in play.  The longer the game goes the more likely they are to stick their threats through your disruption.

Jace also contradicts your theory of his deck getting worse in the long game and not being able to refill his hand (Not that i'm familar with playing it, but I don't think that usually, those are important to a delver's list strategy; I suppose he included Jace for certain match ups/Game states and it's great flexibility but also because it's one of the best 4 ccm blue spells in the format and Deathrite shaman can "accelerate" him out).

Yes a singleton Jace and handful of deathrites completely compensates for all of the late game lackings of the other card choices...  I don't think the Jace is reliably castable, but is probably his best option for a tutor if he starts to fall behind early.

Sorry if I'm being harsh in my tone sometimes, it wasn't my intention, but it's the blunt truth, and seeing as you haven't bothered to undermine Soly's build yourself, I guess you were ready for arguments to be made against you

I hope you don't interpret this the wrong way though, and it doesn't hurt your feelings, in which case I'm truly sorry.

I was simply trying to have a fruitful discussion on the merits of different directions of the list.  I wasn't trying to high jack his thread by posting my list and saying its clearly better.  Sadly this seemed to turn it into a bob is a overrated and has no merit in an aggro list, which seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[Soly]

Ok, so INCOMING QUOTE TAGS!

Dark confidant was pretty much the only reason I was playing black over green.  I'd be interested in hearing why you didn't include him in your list.  I found it had a good match up against everything except for workshops, which was only a bad match up because the mana count needs to be so low to support gush/delver.  The route you've gone by adding 4 deathrite+1 Jace is interesting as it gives the deck a late game aspect, which other builds of delver don't really have.  Deathrite also ups the number of mana sources possibly correcting that problem against workshops.

Dark Confidant is very contrary to what I try to do with my Delver decks.  I really value Gush for it's ability to cheat on your mana curve, and Instant Speed and storm count for flusterstorms often time can mean the difference between winning or losing.  I also try to maximize every draw that I have with this deck;  be that showing significant pressure (such as delver randomly flipping, me playing true-name and you immediately being on the defensive, or playing a Young Pyromancer and then you immediately have to fear me playing Gush + a counterspell and pressuring you).   Dark Confidant does things that gush doesn't do, obviously...  but in the Mid-game or the late-game, I'd much rather have Gush than Confidant.   And I do understand that some lists do play Both, but I feel like that is suicide. Trust me, my huge vintage resume includes many top8s/wins with the card, but right now there are a lot of swords to plowshares/lightning bolt/abrupt decay/Oath of Druids flowing around.  I really don't like to use Dark Confidant right now because of that.  The matchups in vintage right now make Thoughtseize a more valuable spell than Confidant, and I could never bring myself to play 4x each of them AND 4x gush.
Sidenote:  I get REALLY @#$%ING SALTY when my own Confidant kills me

Yup, Confidant is the reason why you want to play black. Not Deathrite, he doesn't do much for this kind of deck.

I am not trying to be rude, so please don't take it that way;  I question your experience with Rug Delver and Tempo/grindy style decks when you feel this way.   The way I developed RUG delve rand the way I developed this deck based on a concept I apply to every game of magic I play....Parody.   If you're at parody, it means neither person is ahead or behind;  you're at 50/50.  Realistically I always want to be AT parody, or be the one breaking parody.  Deathrite Shaman does that VERY well.  Deathrite Shaman plus Lightning Bolt really threatens to end games quickly, and you can very easily suck away 10ish points of the opponent's life total.   Deathrite Shaman breaks Parody by itself, which is something I value higher than a few extra cards over several turns, IF my opponent doesn't destroy my creature.

I also feel like playing with Dark Confidant takes you in an entirely different direction, and isn't really what the Delver decks in vintage have come to be defined as.

I am wondering why there is only 1 jace, and also why no yawgmoth's will?

Jace is a 1 of because it's a silver bullet to assist with the Parody Concept.  Something you can tutor for when you're flooding out.  It's not really a card you want in multiples because it is not the engine of the deck like it is for almost every other deck that plays the card.   I have enough of an engine, but using it's Plus ability OR it's Minus ability can really break gamestates open.

Yawgmoth's Will isn't in this deck because it's a really bad card to draw in a deck like this 4 times out of 5.  I never want a card that is situational.  Also, without Time Walk in the Graveyard, Willenium is not a threatening spell in this deck.

[John Cox]

Soly, have you thought of dropping Jace for another tutor? Getting gush seems better than tapping out for Jace.

[zeus-online]

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[Soly]

I have tested Yawgmoth's Will in great detail, and I find that it creates a certain coat-tail to the game.   The card itself in this style of deck is somewhat of a Trap, in that you have it, and you try to set up busted turn with it, but in reality, it just takes away from what the main goals of this deck are.

I do understand though that I would be unfair to just expect you to understand my logic behind it;  feel free to test yawgmoth's will.   It took someone testing RUG Delver to convince me Mystical Tutor was right, and it ended up being one of the best cards in my list.

But at the same time, everyone told me I was an idiot (literally) for not running fastbond, but it appears that everyone now accepts that the card is not needed.   So really, it just comes down to this:   Play it how you'd like, and tune it to what you feel is best.  I am completely open to being wrong about the card.

[StanleyAugust]

Yup, Confidant is the reason why you want to play black. Not Deathrite, he doesn't do much for this kind of deck.

I am not trying to be rude, so please don't take it that way;  I question your experience with Rug Delver and Tempo/grindy style decks when you feel this way.   The way I developed RUG delve rand the way I developed this deck based on a concept I apply to every game of magic I play....Parody.   If you're at parody, it means neither person is ahead or behind;  you're at 50/50.  Realistically I always want to be AT parody, or be the one breaking parody.  Deathrite Shaman does that VERY well.  Deathrite Shaman plus Lightning Bolt really threatens to end games quickly, and you can very easily suck away 10ish points of the opponent's life total.   Deathrite Shaman breaks Parody by itself, which is something I value higher than a few extra cards over several turns, IF my opponent doesn't destroy my creature.

I also feel like playing with Dark Confidant takes you in an entirely different direction, and isn't really what the Delver decks in vintage have come to be defined as.

I didn't take it that way, so no harm done. I'm sure you have more experience playing RUG Delver than I do, but I did actually play both UR Delver and RUG Delver before it made any noise on the scene (ie. before you and others developed it) so I'd say that I have some experience at least. And as I've been playing UBR Human Delver for some time now, I probably have more experience with that color combination than you do.

Honestly, Confidant is the reason to play black. Without Confidant, I'm quite certain that RUG Delver is superior. You say that Deathrite is good at breaking parody. Sure... Confidant is way better though. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Deathrite and I think it's amazing but it's way better in more controlling builds and especially with Wastelands.

I'm sure you could go UBR with Deathrites but I would then overhaul the manabase to include Cavern of Souls and Wastelands and drop Gush (which isn't that good with Confidant anyway).

Anyway, it's just my opinion. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[Stormanimagus]

Lest I lose my mind with all this talk of "parody," I would like to point out that a "parody" is an imitation with humorous exaggeration as in: "The Colbert Report" is a "parody" of various Fox News shows. "Parity" is the word I believe you are all after. Just to set the record straight for those of us who have a hard time seeing past spelling and grammar mistakes .

[Greg]

Lest I lose my mind with all this talk of "parody," I would like to point out that a "parody" is an imitation with humorous exaggeration as in: "The Colbert Report" is a "parody" of various Fox News shows. "Parity" is the word I believe you are all after. Just to set the record straight for those of us who have a hard time seeing past spelling and grammar mistakes .

Are we the same person?

[zeus-online]

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[tribet]

That is worth some sort of award, man!

English is not my first language so I sometimes say funny things too but that was way beyond hilarious!

[TheWhiteDragon]

It was about as funny as a good parody, in fact.

[Soly]

English is my first and only language, so I am extremely embarassed!

[StanleyAugust]

lol  I'm glad that English isn't my native language! That would have been beyond embarrassing!

[zeus-online]

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[Soly]

Dark Confidant in the current format will usually break parity for your opponent because the format is full of abrupt decays and Lightning Bolts.  Dark Confidant also can be controlled by Jace the Mindsculptor and having to lean on Dark Confidant to give you cards against Oath of Druids is a really bad time.  I value the ability of Gush to also add storm count for Flusterstorm, and also increase your blue count to support Force of Will.    The MAIN reason to play Gush in this deck is exactly the reason I played it in RUG Delver though;  it allows you to significantly cheat on your manabase.   I would never run below 22 mana sources with a deck like this even unless I was running Gush.

The concept with RUG Delver was to miss your 3rd land so you could Gush for value, replay a land, and then Vendilion Clique them.  The concept here is the same except True-Name Nemesis or Jace.  Or just playing preordains and a Young Pyromancer.

Dark Confidant plays poorly with Delver and Pyromancer, and also makes this deck bend over even worse to Pyroclasm.

[StanleyAugust]

Dark Confidant in the current format will usually break parity for your opponent because the format is full of abrupt decays and Lightning Bolts.  Dark Confidant also can be controlled by Jace the Mindsculptor and having to lean on Dark Confidant to give you cards against Oath of Druids is a really bad time.  I value the ability of Gush to also add storm count for Flusterstorm, and also increase your blue count to support Force of Will.    The MAIN reason to play Gush in this deck is exactly the reason I played it in RUG Delver though;  it allows you to significantly cheat on your manabase.   I would never run below 22 mana sources with a deck like this even unless I was running Gush.

The concept with RUG Delver was to miss your 3rd land so you could Gush for value, replay a land, and then Vendilion Clique them.  The concept here is the same except True-Name Nemesis or Jace.  Or just playing preordains and a Young Pyromancer.

Dark Confidant plays poorly with Delver and Pyromancer, and also makes this deck bend over even worse to Pyroclasm.

Dark Confidant definitely doesn't play poorly with Delver and Pyromancer. In fact, it plays very well with both. Sure, Gush has more obvious and direct synergy with Pyromancer, but Confidant still is pretty damn good with it.

If Confidant plays "poorly" with Pyromancer, which adjective would you then give the synergy between Pyromancer and Deathrite?

Also, do you care to elaborate on 1) how does Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay break parity for your opponent? The way I see it, Confidant for Decay/Bolt is at worse a 1 for 1, so how is that breaking parity? 2) How is Deathrite better at breaking parity against Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt than Confidant?

[Soly]

1) how does Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay break parity for your opponent? The way I see it, Confidant for Decay/Bolt is at worse a 1 for 1, so how is that breaking parity?
Because they're cutting off your Engine with one of their cards that is in their deck specifically to 1 for 1.   Everyone is so caught up on the whole 1 for 1,  2 for 1 etc that they don't realize that people put specific cards in their deck for the purpose of answering an opponents card, so if you're banking on your Dark Confidant to fill your hand, and they're banking on their removal to kill dark confidant, when that removal does happen, who really has the upper hand?   Without Gush you are handicapping yourself if Dark Confidant is removed.   I feel there isn't a deck out there right now that plays Dark Confidant that doesn't crutch incredibly hard on the card to refill the hand.  

2) How is Deathrite better at breaking parity against Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt than Confidant?
I never once argued that Deathrite is better at breaking parity.  I never said anything of the sort.   I never even compared Deathrite to Dark Confiant or claimed that running Deathrite is better than running Confidant.   I think this argument is ridiculous.

I need to make my point clear;   Arguing further on Dark Confidant at this point is irrelevant.   I won't participate in it anymore because it's clear that some people are locked into their "Dark Confidant is always right every time! OMZors!" opinion.  I have my stance on the card, and you have yours.  Test it, and I will continue testing/playing my list without the card.

[zeus-online]

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[vaughnbros]

Defending Soly's choice:

Now it seems to me like the main argument for playing dark confidant (According to all you who suggest and defend it) is that dark confidant is a good card, and that card advantage is good.
I believe you are right, its a good card and card advantage can definitely win you games.

But lets look at what the deck actually tries to accomplish:
This is a tempo deck, what it wants to do is win by using it's mana more efficiently than it's opponent. To do this it needs a lot of cheap cards that curve out nicely for about 3-4 turns after which the opponents deck is hopefully exhausted and trying to top deck for solutions.

Since the deck needs to pressure the opponent quickly, deathrite shaman makes alot more sense than dark confidant. An opening of deathrite into nemesis means that the opponent has very little time to do anything and it also limits their defensive options by not allowing them to block and more or less disabling removal and planeswalkers. Compare this to a similar opening where deathrite is replaced by confidant, that opening is slower than molasses.

Since this deck runs on such a low curve and features Gush it has a high density of threats and can reliably produce 1 additional spell or creature each turn, this is more than enough gas to enable the deck to actually curve out for the few turns it needs to.

Long story short: Deathrite shaman speeds the deck up, thereby denying the opponent time to build up resources. The deck does not *need* the additional cards that dark confidant provides.

In a sense, you could view this as a Vintage Sligh deck. All it wants to do is curve out and kill the opponent.

Turn 1 you already want to use to play delver or thoughtseize or possibly even preordain to find some disruption, pretty much always over deathrite.  Also if I have a mox deathrite doesn't make my 3 drop any faster.  Turn 2 I want to play my pyromancer, or turn 1 if I have a mox.  Making deathrite likely not coming down until after ramp is relevant, outside of the shops match up of course.   As such I see deathrite more of as a better than lavamancer for this style of deck since his primary job is to shock not to mana ramp.

[Soly]

Actually, in Today's metagame, I would highly want to play Deathrite on Turn 1, followed by a Thoughtseize + pyromancer or more action on Turn 2.