[Free Podcast] SMIP # 33: Born of the Gods Review

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-33-born-of-the-gods/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian investigate Born of the Gods for Vintage. Also, how will counterfeits impact Vintage?

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:27:51 — 64.4MB)

Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:01:00: Announcements
0:04:45: Counterfeits and Vintage
0:20:10: Theros Report Card
0:24:30: Born of the Gods mechanics
0:37:20: Spirit of the Labyrinth
0:51:30: Pain Seer
0:55:50: Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1:21:50: Born of the Gods summary
Total Runtime: 1:27:51

Other Show Notes

- Swan Song Playability Results
- Born of the Gods Visual Spoiler
- Team Serious Vintage Open March 8 2014
- Eudomania Vintage

[Greg]

I was initially disappointed when I saw Kiora, the Crashing Wave spoiled. Finally, I thought, a planeswalker in my favorite color combination with awesome artwork, to boot. Once I read it, though, it just seemed underwhelming, especially for Vintage.

In your analysis of the card, though, Steve, it actually seemed like a deck involving Lotus Cobra, Gush, and a variety of planeswalkers could actually be something fun and competitive. A tier one deck? I'm not sure about that, but the idea is very intriguing to me. Could this idea somehow fit into a RUG deck with a focus on Gush and Young Pyromancer? I've always thought that Lotus Cobra seemed too fun and powerful to be basically nonexistent in Vintage.

Everybody is in agreement that Kiora is nowhere near as good as Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but the thought of them working alongside each other could be exciting. I still doubt that Kiora will have any notable impact on Vintage, but it would be cool if she did.

[MTGFan]

It's good to hear a dialogue emerge regarding the effect of the new counterfeits on the Vintage format.

[WhiteLotus]

Another great podcast you guys.

Nice analysis on Kiora, it seems to have potential in a Cobra Gush deck. It looks like a lot of people may have underestimated it.
I'll be Looking foward to see if it lives up to what you are suggesting.

I think it would be a great idea if you guys add the Scenario/tactic part in future podcasts like you were saying. Personally, I would also favor a little segment on what's happening in the metagame shifts, trends and stuff like that (and I'm probably not the only one).

[MaximumCDawg]

I havn't got through the whole podcast, but I was irked when (during the Inspired introduction) Kevin said there's nothing that taps and untaps a creature on the same cards.  Perhaps he meant without mana cost, but there are at least three cards that do this for a minimal mana investment: Freed from the Real, Aura of Dominion, and Pemmin's Aura.  I noticed during your Theros set review that there were a few statements like this about comparable cards not existing when they did.

Would you guys be interested in a show researcher or something like that?  I'd be happy to scour Gatherer for cards similar to cards or effects you wanted to discuss and produce a list for your prior to each show.  I feel like that would make your discussions much more powerful, since you'd know for a fact what unplayable cards are related to current cards without having to follow the General Discussion threads on the Drain about each new card each week.

I'm happy to help if you have any interest in that.  

It's good to hear a dialogue emerge regarding the effect of the new counterfeits on the Vintage format.

Yeah, but I felt like Kevin's analysis was kind of off.  To the extent that counterfeiters printing Vintage staples undermine demand by increasing supply, Wizards would exacerbate that effect by printing more copies.  Perhaps that is why Kevin tried to discuss the issue in terms of collector confidence rather than supply and demand?

What would be helpful is some kind of data showing how many Vintage staples are in the hands of plays (presumably part of the supply//demand equation) and how many are in the hands of collectors (presumably part of the collector equation).  I can't imagine how you'd begin to figure that out.

EDIT - Per Kiora, the Crashing Wave

What Steve is missing about Kiora, at least explicitly, is how SIMILAR it is to Jace.  He tries to prove that Kiora might be playable, despite being worse than Jace, by saying Tezz sees play and is also inferior to Jace.  This seems like a very strained analogy.  Tezz, the Seeker is entirely different from Jace.  You play him because you win the the game next turn once he drops.  His abilities are not comparable to Jace.  Kiora, by contrast, has abilities that match up almost exactly with Jace's abilities in function.

The only difference is the land drop, and there, yes, probably Gush cares about that.  But if you're making the deck, it seems like a big stretch to say people are cutting Jace for Kiora.  She seems like she would work only as a quasi-Jace's 5-8.  Is that REALLY a likely thing for Gush to do....? Dunno, why don't you go top 8 with it, Steve

[boxian]

I think that the Kiora discussion was very interesting, and it got brought up but I have to think that Explore is the guide here.

+ it costs less mana (2<4)
+ it costs 1 type of specific mana (being 1G)
+ you get to replace the card and drop a land
+ it can only be countered/taxed, not stopped via other means

= it is half the same interaction with Cobra as Kiora, but this is acceptable because it is half mana investment
= it is sorcery speed

- it can't go positive on cards because it isn't a permanent
- it isn't a win condition eventually/accidentally
- it doesn't incidentally protect against a non-Time Walk hasted Blightsteel

So with all that in mind, I'm think that it is possible to use Explore to satisfy the "strictly better/same card that doesn't see play" heuristic.

On the other hand, Cobra Kiora Gush sounds super fun.

re: counterfeits

I think that Kevin was on to something, but I think that what he proposed would be too little, too late and that we could expect WotC to act prior to a flooding of the market with counterfeits. We see them being proactive right now, so I think it's reasonable to assume they will maintain a proactive mindset.

The thing to me is that there will come a time when they come to the same conclusion Kevin did - the reserved list, as a protector of the collector, is no longer able to do it's job. You thank it for it's service, explain the changing world, and move on to print Vintage Masters in paper in 2020 (may be a bit optimistic there, but you get it) with new card faces and art, saying that new art and border won't impact previous collectibles because they are different and no longer "originals" which adds inherent value for collectors. And that idea from Kevin, I think is spot on.

Something about this debate in the community that I have seen is that everyone, nearly universally, agrees that WotC makes no money from the Vintage and Legacy community. I disagree with this idea. The mere existence of these marquee cards from Magic's past that see limited Vintage play or get shown at Legacy tables is huge. It adds legitimacy to the game that no other TCG has. Yu-Gui-Oh's owner, Konami, frequently does price corrections for their game, reprinting cards very quickly and is not seen as serious of a game thought the prizes are often similar and the game is in the same sphere. I think that if the Black Loti and Moxen and Dual Lands were to all become 3$ then there would be a very large prestige hit to Magic which would take away some aspect of what has kept it going.

So I think that what will happen is that WotC will recognize, sooner or later, that the reserved list is not protecting collectors anymore and take action upon that while recognizing the prestige that Vintage and Legacy give Magic to the outside world (all they understand is that there are magic cards and tournaments worth thousands of dollars, which lets it be taken more seriously by the nonMTG community) which, both combined would allow for them to reprint reserved list cards to harden players' hearts against using fakes (which is certainly something that needs to happen, it seems every forum is ~50/50 about the ethical and effective point of using these fakes) and reinvest players into these formats. In return for getting more players invested in playing the format, demand will increase and the originals will go up in price eventually assuming they can be authenticated (because their utility and prestige have both been raised). This doesn't require them to take away Modern as the premier format - it just needs for them to recognize that Vintage and Legacy are prestigious formats. 

The most dangerous thing in my mind is if they do nothing for the older formats and only move forward with the new frame/stamp.

edit: about the price increases of cards if WotC were to embrace eternal formats as prestigious: Something to note about the price increases observed in Legacy is that they correlate to an increase in tournament play. Honestly, I think we all should be grateful on the one hand that Vintage is community lead and Legacy isn't a PT/PTQ format because the GPs and SCG events have driven Legacy prices into the stratosphere where they currently reside. I can only imagine what would happen to the price of duals if Legacy became a PTQ format, or a Lotus after people saw that a few vendors were serious about running Vintage as a PTQ format (if that were possible).

[msg67183]

I'd like to point out a few things:

You said that Mistcutter Hydra had "zeros across the board" but actually had 3 top 8 results on Morphling.de

You said that against Spirit of the Labyrinth out, Bomberman can't draw out. All the Bomberman player needs to do is achieve infinite mana, then use Aether Spellbomb to bounce the Spirit to then draw all the cards.

[MaximumCDawg]

I finished it.  Loved the podcast, as always.

One more minor gripe though.  Kevin wondered if Spirit of the Labyrinth was an "eternal plant," and said he thought this was true because there was nothing in Standard for such a bizarre hate card to react to.  That's not right.  As Wizards explained here, https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/165, printing specific hate in following blocks is something Wizards does intentionally, and for Standard.  We got Stony Silence in the block following Scars of Mirrodin just in case artifacts got out of control.  Likewise Tormod's Crypt and Rest in Peace to keep Innistrad in check. 

I can't say for sure, of course, because I wasn't in the design room, but it occurs to me that there's a certain very powerful card that has been the lynchpin of a Standard deck for most of a year... that might have raised warning flags in the FFL and suggested they print hate for card draw... one that costs XUW....

It seems to me that they would be AWARE of the card's eternal applications just like they were with Rest in Peace, but they don't go out of their way to design FOR eternal.  Well, with the glaring exception of Lodestone Golem, anyway...

[Samoht]

Sphinx's Revelation is pretty good in Standard I heard.

[Smmenen]

What is Standard? 

I'd like to point out a few things:

You said that Mistcutter Hydra had "zeros across the board" but actually had 3 top 8 results on Morphling.de

Hrmph.

I will double check Kevin's work next time!  I was the one who suggested we review Mistcutter Hydra, so I'm glad it actually showed up!

[MaximumCDawg]

Sphinx's Revelation is pretty good in Standard I heard.

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

Seriously, isn't Lodestone the only printing they've admitted was squarely aimed at Eternal in like, the last half decade?

[CHA1N5]

Yeah, a few editorial style mistakes in this show.
- Freed from the Real, et al: while I cannot recreate every step of our collective research, I believe Steve and I were both searching for "tap an untapped" or "untap a creature you control" or similar constructions, which overlooks the language used on Auras. 
- Mistcutter Hydra:  I have no idea how I missed this.  I went one-by-one through the cards, but I might have typed "Mist Cutter" :\
- Sphinx's Revelation: a very likely explanation.  It does suggest that the card was designed with Standard in mind, but it doesn't change how the card stands out as a "plant".

If nothing else: you are all listening critically, which we're grateful for

[Smmenen]

Freed from the Real, Aura of Dominion, and Pemmin's Aura.  

Is Aura of Dominion usable to simultaneously tap and untap Blind Seer?  Can you pay one (tapping it as a cost) to untap it?  That would seem to be the best combo then.

[DubDub]

Freed from the Real, Aura of Dominion, and Pemmin's Aura.  

Is Aura of Dominion usable to simultaneously tap and untap Blind Seer?  Can you pay one (tapping it as a cost) to untap it?  That would seem to be the best combo then.

Yes.  Also, I think you mean Pain Seer, not Blind Seer.

Is paying worth it for a 'Confidant trigger'?  Probably.

Confidant's Secret 
Sorcery
Reveal the top card of your library, you lose life equal to its converted mana cost and put it into your hand.

That as a card would almost definitely see major play in Vintage.  (As a spell it would up the Storm count, which is relevant, but whatever, you get the idea.)  Considering the lifeloss as negligible, which for the most part it is in Vintage that spell basically cycles for  which is quite the discount on the normal  .

Is it if you have to invest two cards totaling  before you can begin?  You can do it repeatedly, not just once, and you get a 2/2 for what it's worth (which can be killed too...).  Almost certainly not.

[MaximumCDawg]

Is paying worth it for a 'Confidant trigger'?  Probably.

Is it if you have to invest two cards totaling  before you can begin?  You can do it repeatedly, not just once, and you get a 2/2 for what it's worth (which can be killed too...).  Almost certainly not.

I agree, in Vintage.  For what it is worth, spending 4 mana on this combo gives you a stronger result than spending that mana on comparable effects; see Tome, Archivist, etc,

[dangerlinto]

Sphinx's Revelation is pretty good in Standard I heard.

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

Seriously, isn't Lodestone the only printing they've admitted was squarely aimed at Eternal in like, the last half decade?

Spell Pierce was as well.  At least that's what it's designer told me.

[DubDub]

Is paying worth it for a 'Confidant trigger'?  Probably.

Is it if you have to invest two cards totaling  before you can begin?  You can do it repeatedly, not just once, and you get a 2/2 for what it's worth (which can be killed too...).  Almost certainly not.

I agree, in Vintage.  For what it is worth, spending 4 mana on this combo gives you a stronger result than spending that mana on comparable effects; see Tome, Archivist, etc,

Well, you could spend  on a Guttersnipe enchanted with Curiosity, so that every spell you cast deals two damage and draws you a card.  That seems like a better two-card combo.  There are many two-card combos that are pretty good, but very few are good enough to be played in Vintage.

[mmcgeach]

Well, you could spend  on a Guttersnipe enchanted with Curiosity, so that every spell you cast deals two damage and draws you a card. 

Lol.  Someone should make that work!

[MaximumCDawg]

Haha, why not both?

Really Useful Engine 1 (Thomas)
----------------------
4 Pain Seer
4 Aura of Domination

Really Useful Engine 2 (Percy)
----------------------
4 Guttersnipe
4 Curiosity

Sir Toppem Spells
----------------------
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

The Islands of Sodor
-------------------
7 Solomoxlotus
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain

TOOT TOOT

[Smmenen]

Why don't you just build a focused deck around Pain Seer and Aura of Dominion instead?


4 Pain Seer
4 Aura of Dominion

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall

2 Lightning Bolt

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tinker
1 BSC

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

26 Mana

[MaximumCDawg]

I was sort of joking, actually.  Your list is interesting, though.  Doesn't Pain Seer lend itself to a more storm-based combo deck?  It's basically endless Ad Naseum when you're drawing into rituals and moxen.  You think a blue artifact-combo finish is best?

[DubDub]

Why don't you just build a focused deck around Pain Seer and Aura of Dominion instead?

4 Pain Seer
4 Aura of Dominion
[Etc. typical of a Grixis Control list.]

Because this deck is improved by:

-4 Pain Seer
-4 Aura of Dominion

+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Lightning Bolt (to a total of three)
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Or some other combination of additional commonly seen Grixis cards.  Honestly, that deck is probably even improved by:

-4 Pain Seer
-4 Aura of Dominion

+4 Gitaxian Probe
+4 Street Wraith

Pain Seer isn't going to be a player in Vintage.

[Smmenen]

I was sort of joking, actually.  Your list is interesting, though.  Doesn't Pain Seer lend itself to a more storm-based combo deck?  It's basically endless Ad Naseum when you're drawing into rituals and moxen.  You think a blue artifact-combo finish is best?

I agree that it is a critical mass card, but you have to be able to generate UU quickly.  It seems to me that the deck curves out at:

T1: Pain Seer
T2: Aura
T3: Win

If that's the shell, then perhaps your approach is better.  It probably needs Misdirections to stop Abrupt Decays, and plenty of colorless mana. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Honestly, that deck is probably even improved by:

-4 Pain Seer
-4 Aura of Dominion

+4 Gitaxian Probe
+4 Street Wraith

Pain Seer isn't going to be a player in Vintage.

Well, let's not go TOO far.  I agree with your assessment of how playable Badbob is going to be, ultimately, but he's not totally useless.  You could win games with the Aura combo. Just not as many as you win with RealBob and Jace

[Smmenen]

Is it if you have to invest two cards totaling  before you can begin?  You can do it repeatedly, not just once, and you get a 2/2 for what it's worth (which can be killed too...).  Almost certainly not.

It's worth considering how that amortizes compared to a card like Ad Nauseam.

For 2UUB (and some life) you get 1 card.
For 3UUB you get 2 cards.
For 4UUB you get 3 cards.
For 5UUB you get 4 cards.
For 6UUB you get 5 cards.
Etc.

granted, you also get a warm body, and if you are able to attack, you can get more cards without paying life...

But those mana investments don't seem like a great deal compared to what you get for 2UU from Jace. 

[MaximumCDawg]

without paying life...

Without paying mana, you mean?

[Smmenen]

without paying life...

Without paying mana, you mean?

yes

[MaximumCDawg]

Also, just a quick little post note:

But those mana investments don't seem like a great deal compared to what you get for 2UU from Jace. 

This is why I still think Kiora ain't no thang.

[Smmenen]

Also, just a quick little post note:

But those mana investments don't seem like a great deal compared to what you get for 2UU from Jace. 

This is why I still think Kiora ain't no thang.

In the case of Kiora, you aren't going to play Kiora over the 4th Jace, whereas you may actually be designing a two card combo of Pain Seer and Aura of Dominion may or may not be played with 4 Jaces. 

[brianpk80]

I liked the show.  I appreciate the enthusiasm for Kiora, but I can't help but thinking the extra deference is the simply result of having overlooked certain new cards in the past (Decay, Shaman, etc.).  The pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction, IMO.  My main problem with the card is that it would have been reasonable at 3-4 starting loyalty (with ultimate cost adjusted accordingly) or even having 0 for its modest CA effect, but it's suffering from the inefficiency syndrome that plagues the whole block (excepting Spirit of the Labyrinth which is, as Kevin observed, very out of place).  It was deliberately decided by design that the Kiora card would be much weaker than it could have been by the same people who think we now want to pay 4B for an Unholy Strength.  With so many options available in the card pool, I'm not interested in suffering through Homelandsesque prudishness when I play Vintage.  

I'm not optimistic about any of the Standard-legal expansions set for release this year, so I have to disagree that they'll be any more interesting for Vintage.  It will take a while for them to regain any edge or courage in design, and even when that happens, there will be a long delay until the product release.  If I had to guess, I'd attribute the negative changes we saw beginning in Gatecrash to the Innistrad season where Snapcaster Mage/Mana Leak was such a "problem" that Cavern of Souls had to be emergency printed to "fix" it.  

I lived through Fallen Empires/Homelands and see very little difference between the causes and results of that era and the present one.  

So in sum, Born of the Gods = horrible expansion, but the podcast was good.