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Author Topic: Layers with Snakeform  (Read 11368 times)
LotusHead
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« on: February 15, 2014, 08:00:17 pm »





So my opponent wants to finish me off NOW, can he cast Snakeform on his guy (Wild Defiance and Shorecrasher Mimic's abilities trigger before Snakeform resolves), does his guy end up 3/1 or 6/1 or what?
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 11:05:13 am »

Mimic with rancor is 4/1. You PLAY the snakeform, and TARGET Mimic. Mimic is now 10/6. Snakeform resolves - Mimic is now 1/1.  At this point, I am not 100% on whether the rancor (being a continuous effect) pumps him to 3/1 or if timestamp makes him stay 1/1 (I do think it stays 1/1).  In either case, the Mimic definitely can't kill you at 6 life.
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 12:05:59 pm »

I would have said that the Mimic is a 6/4.
Snakeform (once it resolves) makes the Mimic a 1/1, which is applied in layer 7a. The Wild Defiance and Rancor pumps are applied in layer 7c, making the Mimic a 6/4.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 12:53:02 am »

I admit, I don't know what the layers are. Usually, it's pretty intuitive when it comes up, but Snakeform is kinda like Humility, and I remember that cards having lots of issues.

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fsecco
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 09:34:49 am »

Definitely a 6/4.
+X/+X effects remain effective even after you change the creature's p/t to a specific value (aka "becomes 1/1"). That said, rancor makes it a 3/1 and Wild Defiance makes is a 6/4. He kills you.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 06:02:58 am »

I admit, I don't know what the layers are. Usually, it's pretty intuitive when it comes up,

This is secret code for: Spell it out for us, so we know what happens.

I am unsatisfied with the answers so far, cuz I have no idea how to apply it other than to this one example (and even then, I still don't know how it got applied other than 7c or something).

Please elaborate (or judge post in here Smile )
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wiley
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 08:34:50 pm »

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

This is a pretty good article to go through for anyone wanting an introduction to layers.
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2014, 03:04:22 pm »

I am unsatisfied with the answers so far, cuz I have no idea how to apply it other than to this one example (and even then, I still don't know how it got applied other than 7c or something).

Please elaborate (or judge post in here Smile )

One of the most crucial things to grasp, and this is something that Judgecast did really well on one episode, is that effects continue to apply the whole turn even if they are not doing anything.  What do I mean by that?  Well, when you cast Giant Growth, it is not as if the Giant Growth makes the creature +3/+3 and then vanishes.  No, what actually happens is that, for the rest of the duration of the effect (that turn) the Giant Growth ability is still hanging out, applying to the creature.  

Similarly, when you have people both casting Control Magic-like effects on a creature, they will all still be there and all still apply.

"Layers," "dependencies," and "time stamp order" are all different ways the game tries to resolve which abilities do what when they're all applying to something, and all apply in different situations.  

In your example, Layers answer most of the question.  You havefour effects that all simultaneously exist and are acting on the creature as it attacks:

1. The triggered ability from Shorecrasher Mimic making it a 5/3 (lasts until end of turn)
2. The effect of the Snakeform spell making it a 1/1 (lasts until end of turn)
3. The effect of Rancor giving it +2/+0 (lasts as long as Rancor is attached)
4. The triggered ability of wild defiance giving the creature +3/+3 (lasts until end of turn)

Layers tells us that we apply abilities setting power and toughness first, and then abilities adding and subtracting from power and toughness later.  So we are going to apply 1 and 2 before 3 and 4.

When it comes to deciding what order to apply 1 and 2, I think we look at timestamp, applying them in that order from oldest to newest.  An ability gets a timestamp when it RESOLVES.  Since the Snakeform spell resolved last (since Mimic's ability went on the stack above it), we apply Mimic, then we apply Snakeform, and it ends up as a 1/1.

It doesn't matter what order we then apply Rancor or Wild Defiance, since that's just math.

Does that de-mistify it a bit?

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LotusHead
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2014, 04:32:52 am »

This was indeed the more thorough explanation I was looking for, but has anything changed since this article came out ? (it's several years old).
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