Serum Powder in Espresso

[Nekkrom]

What's the current feel of Serum Powder in Espresso Stax?  I saw a few recent top finishes running Powder and have mixed feelings about giving it a shot.

Edited title, body, for capitalization - Prospero

[Prospero]

We ran Serum Powder in Espresso because the blue decks of the period were focused on executing one of three game plans; Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Time Vault/Voltaic Key, or Tinker/Robot.  Serum Powder was a great way to find one specific hand that had the pieces that you needed in order to win a game.  I remember using three Serum Powders, removing 21 cards, and having a TPS pilot remark that he thought I was crazy for removing three of my Smokestacks.  I got him with two Chalices on turn one, a Chalice two and Lodestone Golem on turn two, and another Lodestone Golem on turn three.

But Modern Vintage is different.  Forino got me to refer to some decks as 'power blue' decks.  They're decks with Vault/Key, Jace, Tinker/BSC, etc.  These decks have been on the wane for a while now.  If you look at metagame breakdowns from five years ago, you'll see what I mean.  Fish style decks weren't popular, and they were clearly tier two.  The modern power blue decks that run these cards are also potentially going to run Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator, Snapcaster Mage, or other creatures.  Cards like Yawgmoth's Will, while still very, very powerful, are weaker now than they have been in the past.  I don't think we're ever going back to an era where the most popular decks are the ones that all run four Mana Drains, with the only creature in their deck being their Tinker target.  Vintage is slowly becoming a creature format.

The product of an opponent with diversified threats, more paths to victory, and less reliance on the traditional power blue victory conditions, must be that your deck is more 'dense'.  Serum Powder helped you set up one good hand, and while there was marginal value in it afterward, that's pretty much what it did.  It was a mana source (albeit an expensive one), it was a 3/3 with Karn, it was another card to burn to Smokestack, but these were all secondary aspects of the card.  It is not a good top-deck, and it is not likely to extricate you from the problems that you'll currently face.

Whatever you choose to do with Shops, you have to be able to keep tacking on, you can't rely on setting up one devastating opener, and riding that to a win.  There are a lot of cards that have been printed, or are now seeing play, that weaken our openers.  Cavern of Souls is a big offender, as it allows an opponent to play through our Chalices.  Deathrite Shaman is excellent at nullifying Crucible of Worlds.  The cacophony of destruction effects make reliance on one expensive bot foolish.  I've grown really tired of having my Steel Hellkites blown up with Nature's Claim and Ingot Chewer.

I think that Serum Powder was a great card for Shops four years ago, and I think its time has passed.  The core of Espresso is still really strong, and I think that the top eights that you're reading about may be a product of the Shop core, in lieu of the strength of Powder. 

Still, there are many things in life that you have to do before you understand.  Other people can do their best to explain, but the point isn't effectively communicated until you can translate the experience for yourself.  If you feel that it's a strong option, run it, and see where it takes you.

Regardless of what you choose, good luck with your Shop deck. 

[Thiim]

I've recently began to test serum powder as well. I've only played MUD for about a year, so i wouldn't know about it before that.

I've played metalworker-forgemaster, affinity & stax. I find the control build most dominating and the most stable of the mud decks.

I think Serum powder still have potential, together with the 2 leylines. leyline of the void & leyline of sanctity.

For me, it's all about getting the best possible starting hand. If we as the shop player get's to start, we most of the time win, as we should too.

Serum powder increase our chance of getting an really disruptive starting hand. Of course we're not as reliant of powder, as an Dreadge player are.

As Prospero mention, it's not a great card to draw in the middle of the game, but it's still very usefull as an permanent.

I believe it brings another dimension to the deck, the question for many shop players, would probably be; what to cut for them?

I will try and run it at the Bazaar of Moxen 9 trials this May, and if it performs well enough, maybe i'll run it for the main event as well.

It's probably a judgement call, if your're willing to risk it, so you have to look at the meta and go with your gut feeling.

There is a famaous athlete that said "If you don't take the shot, you're going to miss 100%"  

[Twaun007]

Ugh... I hate having to follow Prospero.

He summed up the use and reasoning behind running Serum Powder pretty well, but I do disagree with his statement that Serum Powder's time is up.

I think that Serum Powder was a great card for Shops four years ago, and I think its time has passed.  The core of Espresso is still really strong, and I think that the top eights that you're reading about may be a product of the Shop core, in lieu of the strength of Powder.

 

I honestly don't think Serum Powder's time in Shops has passed. I've used Serum Powder and built sideboards which capitalize on it's strength in finding cards during the last few tournaments I've entered with great success. Now, this could be meta-game dependent, regionally dependent, luck, or maybe Mishra rigged the pairings... who know's.

Prospero also touched upon the changing landscape of modern Vintage. This is true, Vintage is becoming creature centric, answers are becoming more diverse, the game is speeding up, but this doesn't mean our Workshop decks can't adjust to the shift. Jump in, experiment, try to break Sword of the Ages with Kuldotha Forgemaster, etc.... If your meta is creature heavy try running Tabernacles in the main and move Thorns to the board. Don't be afraid to move stuff around in the deck.

As a Workshop pilot/brewer our experiences will differ greatly and I'd like to reinforce Prospero's closing statement.

Still, there are many things in life that you have to do before you understand.  Other people can do their best to explain, but the point isn't effectively communicated until you can translate the experience for yourself.  If you feel that it's a strong option, run it, and see where it takes you.  

 

This is the greatest thing you can do. Don't be afraid to try new things or run obscure cards. Everyone's travels through the Workshop are different and what works for one may not work for another.

[Jostin123]

I have to agree with Twaun007 here.  I have been a shop pilot for about a decade, and co-created the Bazaar Stax deck that ran Bazaar without Uba Mask that did well from 2007-2010.  I took a 5 year leave to attend to family, get married, becaome a stepfather to 3, and have a beautiful little girl of my own.  At my first tournament back (last month's $1k at Top Deck games), I made it to the top 8 (in a 34 player tournament) piloting Serum Powders.  Contrary to popular belief, my testing had suggested that tangle+sphere was stong enough to slow down Monastery Mentor and Pyromancer for Smokestack to beat it, and I was right.  Had I not drawn 9 straight blanks In game 3 of my Top 8 oath match against Greg Fentonfter locking him out for 7 turns, I'm pretty sure the deck could have taken the whole thing.

During this tounament, I only mulled using powder once, drawing one almost every game I didnt mulligan.  Even in starting with a Virtual 6 card hand, the stregnth of those hands as a whole are head and shoulders much better than a typical shop hand.  Even when playing against all my shop mirrors on the draw, Serum Powder has uses in allowing you better mana so Wastelands dont cripple you, and allow you to save life by bypassing Ancient Tombs.

In the current metagame, Leylines are just ridiculous right now, and many decks just dont have many meaningful ways to interact with them.  In the two Oath matches I faced, Chalice of the Void at 1 completely cut off Oath's ability to deal with Leyline of Sanctity.  Many decks just have no outs to it, and as long as Martello Shops remains the popular shop list, opponents will not plan for it.  Powders are the real deal, and as Wizards continues to print useful artifacts for Vintage, I expect their strength and in-game value to continue to rise.

With that said, it took me about 100 matches to become knowledgeable of the nuiances and play fluidly and confidently with them.  Playing with them does alter deck design, and the play value of the other 56 cards will change, both individually and in unision with one another, when using Powders

[Will]

I have to agree with Twaun007 here.  I have been a shop pilot for about a decade, and co-created the Bazaar Stax deck that ran Bazaar without Uba Mask that did well from 2007-2010.  I took a 5 year leave to attend to family, get married, becaome a stepfather to 3, and have a beautiful little girl of my own.  At last month's $1k at Top Deck games, I made it to the top 8 (in a 34 player tournament) piloting Serum Powders.  Contrary to popular belief, my testing had suggested that tangle+sphere was stong enough to slow down Monastery Mentor and Pyromancer for Smokestack to beat it, and I was right.  Had I not drawn 9 straight blanks In game 3 of my Top 8 oath match against Greg Fentonfter locking him out for 7 turns, I'm pretty sure the deck could have taken the whole thing.

During this tounament, I only mulled using powder once, drawing one almost every game I didnt mulligan.  Even in starting with a Virtual 6 card hand, the stregnth of those hands as a whole are head and shoulders much better than a typical shop hand.  Even when playing against all my shop mirrors on the draw, Serum Powder has uses in allowing you better mana so Wastelands dont cripple you, and allow you to save life by bypassing Ancient Tombs.

In the current metagame, Leylines are just ridiculous right now, and many decks just dont have many meaningful ways to interact with them.  In the two Oath matches I faced, Chalice of the Void at 1 completely cut off Oath's ability to deal with Leyline of Sanctity.  Many decks just have no outs to it, and as long as Martello Shops remains the popular shop list, opponents will not plan for it.

Powders are the real deal, and as Wizards continues to print useful artifacts for Vintage, I expect their strength and in-game value to continue to rise.

Good job at the Top Deck, it seems like you made quite the return!

My takeaway from your post is that the Espresso core is still very strong, just as Prospero stated. Only using Serum Powder once for mulliganning and mostly just using it as a three mana Mox leads me to believe that you would be better off running more mana sources in general rather than Powder itself. I did not watch your match against Greg and thus do not know what the "9 straight blanks in game 3" were, but if one of them was Serum Powder then it is possible that it being a "blank" in the late game cost you the match. Had Serum Powder been a utility land such as Buried Ruin or a threat the outcome may have been different.

Just an aside, but Chalice of the Void at one counter does not cut off Oath's ability to deal with Leyline of Sanctity because Chalice can be Abrupt Decayed. Oath decks also play Show and Tell which completely bypasses Leyline of Sanctity.

[dangerlinto]

I don't want to oversimplify, but I think Serum Powder's power as a means to find the right hand went way down after Ingot Chewer was printed.  Mostly because Shops only method to keeping the opponent from landing ingot chewer was to land enough Lodestone and Sphere of Resistance that they can never pay for it, and that's too much for even Serum Powder to ask from mulligans.

Again, oversimplfying I'm sure, but before chewer you could much more easily cut off every anti-shop card from ever seeing play (on the play).   You are much better off now with more gas so when the inevitable chewer comes down, you have a replacement threat.

[JarofFortune]

I don't want to oversimplify, but I think Serum Powder's power as a means to find the right hand went way down after Ingot Chewer was printed.  Mostly because Shops only method to keeping the opponent from landing ingot chewer was to land enough Lodestone and Sphere of Resistance that they can never pay for it, and that's too much for even Serum Powder to ask from mulligans.

Again, oversimplfying I'm sure, but before chewer you could much more easily cut off every anti-shop card from ever seeing play (on the play).   You are much better off now with more gas so when the inevitable chewer comes down, you have a replacement threat.

Huh? Chewer was printed before Lodestone.

[Prospero]

I don't want to oversimplify, but I think Serum Powder's power as a means to find the right hand went way down after Ingot Chewer was printed.  Mostly because Shops only method to keeping the opponent from landing ingot chewer was to land enough Lodestone and Sphere of Resistance that they can never pay for it, and that's too much for even Serum Powder to ask from mulligans.

Again, oversimplfying I'm sure, but before chewer you could much more easily cut off every anti-shop card from ever seeing play (on the play).   You are much better off now with more gas so when the inevitable chewer comes down, you have a replacement threat.

Huh? Chewer was printed before Lodestone.

It was, though Chewer's popularity in Vintage came after Lodestone, not before.

Seven or eight year ago, the typical Shop hate package featured Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree, and maybe, maybe, maybe Trygon Predator.  Trygon was popular before Owen won Champs with his BUG list with Trygons, but not much more so.  It was a card in Noble Fish for a while, but it wasn't a true blue card, per se.

Edit: Forgot about Viashino Heretic.  That guy was absolutely no fun.

[Jostin123]

I have to agree with Twaun007 here.  I have been a shop pilot for about a decade, and co-created the Bazaar Stax deck that ran Bazaar without Uba Mask that did well from 2007-2010.  I took a 5 year leave to attend to family, get married, becaome a stepfather to 3, and have a beautiful little girl of my own.  At last month's $1k at Top Deck games, I made it to the top 8 (in a 34 player tournament) piloting Serum Powders.  Contrary to popular belief, my testing had suggested that tangle+sphere was stong enough to slow down Monastery Mentor and Pyromancer for Smokestack to beat it, and I was right.  Had I not drawn 9 straight blanks In game 3 of my Top 8 oath match against Greg Fentonfter locking him out for 7 turns, I'm pretty sure the deck could have taken the whole thing.

During this tounament, I only mulled using powder once, drawing one almost every game I didnt mulligan.  Even in starting with a Virtual 6 card hand, the stregnth of those hands as a whole are head and shoulders much better than a typical shop hand.  Even when playing against all my shop mirrors on the draw, Serum Powder has uses in allowing you better mana so Wastelands dont cripple you, and allow you to save life by bypassing Ancient Tombs.

In the current metagame, Leylines are just ridiculous right now, and many decks just dont have many meaningful ways to interact with them.  In the two Oath matches I faced, Chalice of the Void at 1 completely cut off Oath's ability to deal with Leyline of Sanctity.  Many decks just have no outs to it, and as long as Martello Shops remains the popular shop list, opponents will not plan for it.

Powders are the real deal, and as Wizards continues to print useful artifacts for Vintage, I expect their strength and in-game value to continue to rise.

Good job at the Top Deck, it seems like you made quite the return!

My takeaway from your post is that the Espresso core is still very strong, just as Prospero stated. Only using Serum Powder once for mulliganning and mostly just using it as a three mana Mox leads me to believe that you would be better off running more mana sources in general rather than Powder itself. I did not watch your match against Greg and thus do not know what the "9 straight blanks in game 3" were, but if one of them was Serum Powder then it is possible that it being a "blank" in the late game cost you the match. Had Serum Powder been a utility land such as Buried Ruin or a threat the outcome may have been different.

Just an aside, but Chalice of the Void at one counter does not cut off Oath's ability to deal with Leyline of Sanctity because Chalice can be Abrupt Decayed. Oath decks also play Show and Tell which completely bypasses Leyline of Sanctity.

The exact senario was that I opened up on Double Leyline of Sanctity, Chalice, Sphere, Wasteland, Ancient Tomb, Cage, on the draw.  I drew another sphere,  got the first sphere countered, and then piled on spheres until about turn 4, where I drew nothing but a leyline, a serum powder, Moxes, and non-factory lands for 9 straight turns.  A smokestack, Crucible, early factory, lodestone:  anything wouldve put that game away.   Even a late tangle wire would've bought a few more turns. He drew land heavy for a few turns as well and eventually got to show and tell mana through the spheres, dropping Gristlebrand while I dropped leyline #3, and the game was over 3 turns later.  The powder was hardcast early to help me avoid taking tomb damage.

As for chewer, I don't think its that big a deal.  It will never get hardcast for 5 if you know what you're doing, making it a 1 for 1 at best.  Chewer is also at its best when there are lots of thorns running around, a card expresso really shys away from for the stronger effect in sphere.  Chewer will beat a sphere, but due to its sorcery speed nature, if you overlap it with another lock piece, it often can't get evoked.  That was the same senario with Chalice at 1 protecting my game 3 leylines: yes it can get Decayed, but its another shield for leyline, making claim useless until it is dealt with, which is oftentimes good enough.  Much like Ray stated in "The Rebuild Effect" piece a few years ago, it buys you time so the threats can bury the opponent.