[CNS]Dack Fayden

[diopter]

I know there are some protracted game states where Jace's ultimate is relevant, but that's like the 5% of why you play him.

Yeah Dack doesn't have that but what he does have is one less colorless mana required to cast him. Setting aside how that opens up different lines of play over Jace, just think how many games you get stuck at three mana for a while due to luck of the draw. Surely it's at least 1 in 20 (aka 5%).

[TheWhiteDragon]

The White Dragon,

I am willing to short sell any amount of JtMS at $50.  I'll just use the proceeds to by booster boxes.  Thanks.  

Or I'll just buy them from Starcitygames for $20 and have them shipped directly to your address.

Fixed your statement for historical reference, thanks.

[gkraigher]

This will be the 45th planeswalker to ever be printed.  Exactly 2 of them see regular play in vintage-- jace TMS and Tezzeret the Seeker.  Both cards have abilities that generate pure card advantage and both cards win the game with no additional help.  

I don't think my breakdown of planeswalkers is narrow, i think I am demanding the necessary things you need for a walker to be played in vintage.  

The white dragon,

And I would get to keep all the stoneforge mystics, man lands (including the $15 celestial collonade and $12 creeping tar pit), avenger of zendikars, amulet of vigor, basilisk collar, dragon master outcast, omnath, lodestone golems, and tectonic edges.  If you gave me the chance to bust open boxes of Worldwake at cost but I had to short sell Jace TMS at $50 IT WOULD BE A SCREAMING DO!

[boggyb]

Fixed your statement for historical reference, thanks.

I mean I do question his relevance outside of Vintage. There are very few relevant, powerful, one-sided, and commonly-played artifacts to steal outside of our format.

I can't think of any, really, in Legacy. The occasional Crucible? Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix? Sensei's Divining Top doesn't work. What am I missing?

[gkraigher]

It steals equipment in legacy. 

[boggyb]

Oh right, that's pretty big. The occasional Aether Vial, maybe.

[Protoaddict]

I love this argument that he is card disadvantage some how, as if people don't understand how it works at this point. Even if you are not discarding cards with his +1 that will give you eventual card advantage, he just gave you a ton of card quality by allowing you to toss your lands or whatever away. Did that just cost you a card? NO BECAUSE HES STILL ON THE TABLE.

This is not careful study where the card winds up in the yard and actually does cost you a card in the long run, this is a permanent that has repeatable abilities. You have 1 less card in hand but one more in play, all you did was shift the cards zone and increase your board position, that is assuming you didn't just windmill slam him and steal something from your opposing shops player.

Yes he can die to abrupt decay. It's a 1 for 1. I don't see people not playing Dual lands because they die to wastelands.

People are shockingly narrow sighted sometimes. Even if this guys is only ever good in his own dedicated list, he will be good in his own dedicated list. Smokestack is only good in shops and Bridge from below is only good in dredge, but they are vintage staples all the same. Dack will be at least in the same category as them if not better.

[gkraigher]

I don't think this card is good in it's own dedicated list.  I think it is a sideboard card.  It certainly shifts the Blue Control/Combo deck matchup to your favor.  But it doesn't improve your matchup vs anything else. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

When Dack starts doing well we will look back at this thread and laugh

[diopter]

This will be the 45th planeswalker to ever be printed.  Exactly 2 of them see regular play in vintage-- jace TMS and Tezzeret the Seeker.  Both cards have abilities that generate pure card advantage and both cards win the game with no additional help.  

I don't think my breakdown of planeswalkers is narrow, i think I am demanding the necessary things you need for a walker to be played in vintage.  

Your point is well put - the bar is high for Vintage playable planeswalkers.

However I am questioning how you are defining the bar.

For one thing, I don't see how Tezz generates "pure CA" in the way that you've laid out is necessary for Vintage playability.

You might answer with a pithy "duh he wins the game" - which would only go to show that CA as a shortcut to measuring playability is often flawed.

[gkraigher]

It'll be funny for some of us.  

There will be tournaments right out of the gates where this card will have success, because people will want to play him, but come November in Philly the real results will come into play. 

The # of copies of this card in the main decks of players at Vintage Worlds. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

More like see the vintage T8s on the East Coast up until and including champs in Philly

The east coast is the driving force in the vintage meta game. Time will tell...

[gkraigher]

Tezz -X puts an artifact in play.  

That is pure card advantage not conditional to your oppoenet's board state.  

BTW, I do expect this card to have some early success.  But I think it fizzles out. 

[diopter]

I don't think this card is good in it's own dedicated list.  I think it is a sideboard card.  It certainly shifts the Blue Control/Combo deck matchup to your favor.  But it doesn't improve your matchup vs anything else.  

I can't imagine this being a sideboard card, ever. It has insane cross-utility in both the big blue and shops matchups, it is basically the shining example of the proper way to design a MAINDECK Vintage card.

Like if I wasn't running Dack in my maindeck in the blue mirror, then I wouldn't run him over narrow back breakers like Mystic Remora in the SB

[diopter]

Tezz -X puts an artifact in play.  

That is pure card advantage not conditional to your oppoenet's board state.  

What are you searching for if not TV? Div Top? Monolith? How do these plays advance your game plan in a way that -X for TV doesn't achieve in most contexts?

I think your analysis on Tezz is off the mark.

Referring back to Dack, "Steal Mox" is conditional on the opponent having Mox but if he doesn't have a Mox when you drop this guy T2, then either:
- he's got mostly lands and you have a serious tempo advantage
- he's holding Mox which means he's ramping up to maybe jace, and you have a nice window here to filter your way to your own Jace, or
- he had an insane Lotus opening play and there's not much you could've done with any other tactic

And the nice thing about Steal Mox when it is active is that it really synergizes nicely with the +1.

[MaximumCDawg]

He's not a sideboard card.  Dack is main-deckable provided you have incidental ways to interact with your graveyard such as Yawgwill or Snapcaster Mage.  I'm actually surprised this is even a discussion.

It's like this.  Vintage decks are always hungry, hungry for utility cards that can play multiple roles while not costing them much deck space and being reasonably good at each role.  Jace is astoundingly good at compressing the removal/control/draw engine of a deck all at the same time.  He makes the good stuff denser.

Dack and Liliana of the Veil both do precisely this same thing, albeit on a smaller scale.  Lily is discard and creature removal.  Dack is card filtering and artifact theft.  Lily tends to be better in Legacy, where her two abilities are more prized.  Dack is basically Lily printed for Vintage.  It makes your removal/draw engine part of the deck denser.  

And really, density is what it's all about.  Space is at a premium in Vintage decks, and if running two maindeck Dacks saves you one sideboard slot against Shops while not cutting into your draw engine too much (and I think it probably does) then it's going to see play.  Remember, too, that given the amount of artifact mana we play in Vintage, Dack Fayden's ability is essentially mana ramp AND mana denial all wrapped into one sexy package.

"Hey buddy.  Each turn, I will either cast stone rain and rampant growth, or we can loot if you need to dig for something.  It's all cool, I get bigger either way."

[gkraigher]

Dack is main-deckable provided you have incidental ways to interact with your graveyard such as Yawgwill or Snapcaster Mage

I really can't wait for you guys to see this card in action.    What are you going to do, discard your Ancestral Recall to this effect?  Lightning bolt is your only good discard choice here.  Discard your force of will?  Your spell pierce so you can elect to pay 3 mana for it with snapcaster instead of 1?  

Discard your dark ritual so you can cast it from the yard with yawg will?

You are going to find out quickly that this card is -1 in your hand, and that you might see a lot of cards but will be able to cast a lot fewer than you think, because this card generates no card advantage.  

cast stone rain and rampant growth

I don't think this effect is worth 3 mana in vintage.  

or we can loot

This effect is clearly not worth 3 mana in vintage, as it has been determined it's not even worth 1. 

[diopter]

Let me shift gears by inquiring about the -6. Very marginal in Vintage, the Fire/Ice synergy probably won't work as one cannot often afford to play too much removal in this metagame that cannot answer Lodestone.

Is it good in Legacy or Commander? Seems like it's actually a pretty cool way to give Dack some relevance outside of Vintage.

[diopter]

Dack is main-deckable provided you have incidental ways to interact with your graveyard such as Yawgwill or Snapcaster Mage

I really can't wait for you guys to see this card in action.    What are you going to do, discard your Ancestral Recall to this effect?  Lightning bolt is your only good discard choice here.  Discard your force of will?  Your spell pierce so you can elect to pay 3 mana for it with snapcaster instead of 1?  

Well, it's good that you bring that up.  I've been two-fisting 3x Dack in a East Coast Wins style Gush list and it is pretty great. Certainly helps me do stuff in the mirror a way that Ancient Grudge never did.

You need to not blindly +1. If you have Ancestral in hand, of course you play it first. With Dack sometimes the best play is discard Force to get that Demonic Tutor. It's not like they can trump you easily with Tinker. You're exposed to opposing Jaces, but a.) Dack comes down fast so the opponent doesn't have a ton of resources to counterpunch like that, b.) the -2 helps limit opposing options, and c.) you can still just keep +1ing to your own Jaces and Tinkers.

[gkraigher]

This card is stellar in the mirror.  Stellar.  Best ever.  But it's not good vs much else.  It is okay vs shops. 

[diopter]

This card is stellar in the mirror.  Stellar.  Best ever.  But it's not good vs much else.  It is okay vs shops.  

I've done some post-board testing against Espresso Stax. If your SB plan actually includes a good mana base, Dack is achievable and a wicked tactical trump, resource developer and road to victorious Tinker all in one.

One card that is great in both blue mirrors and post-board shops matchups, I think that is actually an incredible card. I also think you're underselling the utility against Fish and Dredge. I haven't tested that yet but my theory craft is that you can dig your way to bomb singletons like Deluge, Spellbomb, jailer etc. pretty nicely. Post board, of course.

This effect is clearly not worth 3 mana in vintage, as it has been determined it's not even worth 1.  

Same logic as "4 mana Brainstorm" etc.

[gkraigher]

assuming you get to activate your planeswalker twice:

2 brainstorms is worth 4 mana.  
brainstorm, unsummon is worth 4 mana

2 careful studies is not worth 3 mana.  
Careful study and steal artifact, depends on the situation.  

if you get more than 2 activations, almost all planewalkers are worth the cost.  

[diopter]

assuming you get to activate your planeswalker twice:

2 brainstorms is worth 4 mana.  
brainstorm, unsummon is worth 4 mana

2 careful studies is not worth 3 mana.  
Careful study and steal artifact, depends on the situation.  

if you get more than 2 activations, almost all planewalkers are worth the cost.  

You keep framing it as Careful Study. It is not careful study on the second and later activations. If you test it, you will find this out for yourself.

Beyond that, how did you arrive at the conclusions that 2 Brainstorms are worth this much and 2 Careful Study is not worth that much?

[desolutionist]

Good Planeswalkers are format defining. Dack Fayden quite good and maybe even better than Jace.  His +1 ability actually digs deeper than Jace past the first turn.  (And we all know that Jace is just a Concentrate in the vacuum of one turn)  He comes down a turn earlier.  And last but not least, steals moxes.  Ok... Obviously good.  Oh, and its blue so it pitches to FoW.

[Meddling Mike]

Dack is main-deckable provided you have incidental ways to interact with your graveyard such as Yawgwill or Snapcaster Mage

I really can't wait for you guys to see this card in action.    What are you going to do, discard your Ancestral Recall to this effect?  Lightning bolt is your only good discard choice here.  Discard your force of will?  Your spell pierce so you can elect to pay 3 mana for it with snapcaster instead of 1?  

Discard your dark ritual so you can cast it from the yard with yawg will?

I was thinking that I would discard a high casting cost artifact. I think it will go well with that mox and goblin welder I cast on turn 1.

I think that you're looking at Dack too simply in terms of Card Advantage. I think a better understanding of the concept of virtual card advantage will help you gain a better appreciation of the advantage that Dack provides.

[dangerlinto]

assuming you get to activate your planeswalker twice:

2 brainstorms is worth 4 mana.  
brainstorm, unsummon is worth 4 mana

2 careful studies is not worth 3 mana.  
Careful study and steal artifact, depends on the situation.  

if you get more than 2 activations, almost all planewalkers are worth the cost.  

You keep framing it as Careful Study. It is not careful study on the second and later activations. If you test it, you will find this out for yourself.

Beyond that, how did you arrive at the conclusions that 2 Brainstorms are worth this much and 2 Careful Study is not worth that much?

Well, if you have to compare it like that, it's more like Careful Study followed by an unending stream of Frantic Study (without the possibility of netting mana on the untap ) and not having to draw into the frantic study at all.  

Comparing free planeswalker abilities to their card-casting analog is a poor idea though.  Fatesealing through Jace is pretty darn good in some cases - normally when the opponent is playing off his top-deck.  In 0 cases if there were a card that performed the same feat would it be considered worthwhile to play, even if it were free to cast and cantripped.

The most egregious comparison above though is trying to compare a single card vs it's card-casting analog multiple times.   If there were an instant that cost 1w and returned an artifact mana cost 1 or less from your graveyard to your hand (I'm sure there are even more efficient instant to do this - Argivian find ) does that invalidate the casting cost and activation fee of Auriok Salvagers?

[coldcrow]

This guy seems custom-made for grixis welder lists. As a 1-of he will likely join U/R landstill next to jace and ral.
Humans and Oath are on the rise, but it would be crazy to overlook a 3 mana PW with 2 relevant abilities, each for another matchup. I'll enjoy plopping this into play turn 1 now and then

[diopter]

This guy seems custom-made for grixis welder lists. As a 1-of he will likely join U/R landstill next to jace and ral.
Humans and Oath are on the rise, but it would be crazy to overlook a 3 mana PW with 2 relevant abilities, each for another matchup. I'll enjoy plopping this into play turn 1 now and then

The old Lotus, Land, Planeswalker play, only with either Flusterstorm backup or a follow up Ancestral or Brainstorm. Came up twice in testing already!

I also got lucky enough to open with land, land, Mox ruby, Mox emerald, Dack, Jace one game.

[gkraigher]

Beyond that, how did you arrive at the conclusions that 2 Brainstorms are worth this much and 2 Careful Study is not worth that much?

2 brainstorms and 1 fetchland = access to 6 new cards and you draw 2 of them.  see 6 and draw 2 is pretty good for 4 mana.  You also get to replace 4 cards, JUST LIKE DACK!

faithless looting and playing it's flashback ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be played in vintage, because if it was people would play faithless looting.  I guess Dack allows you to convert 2 colorless mana into a 1 blue and save 1 mana.  


People keep bringing up welder, which cracks me up.  Welder got phased out of vintage because it is a graveyard deck and because it lost an amazing card in thirst for knowledge.  But it's main problem is still that it is a graveyard deck, and since dredge is a thing, people pack huge amounts of hate for graveyard strategies.  But by all means, playtest in a vacuum away.

The test is when this card goes to a tournament with > 30 players attending with a diverse metafield.  

[dangerlinto]

faithless looting and playing it's flashback ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH to be played in vintage, because if it was people would play faithless looting.  I guess Dack allows you to convert 2 colorless mana into a 1 blue and save 1 mana.  

If only faithless looting was better, maybe they would.  Like if it could pay a cost of some sort that could, I dunno, steal an opponent's artifact... and be used repeatedly