UR Delver

[dangerlinto]

By that logic, you wouldn't run any basics. You could just max out on duals.

You don't always have a Gush in hand. And playing Gush in response to a Waste activation is often the wrong time to play Gush. 

I dunno what "often" means but I agree it's certainly not an automatic reaction one should make in response to a wasteland activation.

[Smmenen]

Hiho,

one question regarding the Leyline in the SB. I found it personally very annoying to draw it 2nd or 3rd round and have it sit in my hand unable to cast it. Didn´t work a Rav. Trap better in this kind of Deck?
I´m playing UR Delver since there were Cloud of fearies in it XD and I tryed the leylines sometimes but don´t liked them.

But your Deck looks pretty cool und goldfishes very nicely. Looking forward to try it against friends.

best

Chris

I can understand your frustration with Leyline, and Rav Trap may prove stronger in several respects, but I found a combination that worked for me.  Running Rav Trap would require alot of testing to figure out the correct ratio.  

I really like the idea of cutting the 4 Leylines and running 3 Rav Trap and 1 Shat Spree, though!   

And, Without green you can run more basics, for example, which is a boon against Wasteland decks.  The spaces that would be used by Tropical Island are freed up entirely, marginal though they may be.  

Reading this confuses me because you are running 4 gush. Doesn't that make protecting your non basic lands in this deck almost a benefit as you can get you opponent to sac a wastes in response and remove board position from them?

By that logic, you wouldn't run any basics. You could just max out on duals.

You don't always have a Gush in hand. And playing Gush in response to a Waste activation is often the wrong time to play Gush.  

You'd almost always play one basic, even with that logic.

True, but not as a logical conclusion from that premise.  

By that logic, you wouldn't run any basics. You could just max out on duals.

You don't always have a Gush in hand. And playing Gush in response to a Waste activation is often the wrong time to play Gush.  

I dunno what "often" means but I agree it's certainly not an automatic reaction one should make in response to a wasteland activation.

The value of playing Gush in response to Wasteland is overestimated.  More often than most people think, this is the incorrect play.  It's a huge topic of my Gush book.  

[Samoht]

And, Without green you can run more basics, for example, which is a boon against Wasteland decks.  The spaces that would be used by Tropical Island are freed up entirely, marginal though they may be.  

Reading this confuses me because you are running 4 gush. Doesn't that make protecting your non basic lands in this deck almost a benefit as you can get you opponent to sac a wastes in response and remove board position from them?

By that logic, you wouldn't run any basics. You could just max out on duals.

You don't always have a Gush in hand. And playing Gush in response to a Waste activation is often the wrong time to play Gush.  

You'd almost always play one basic, even with that logic.

True, but not as a logical conclusion from that premise.  

In instances where you only have 1 Fetchland in play and are facing a Wasteland in play, you need to be able to get a basic if you need to play a spell on their turn and then play a non-basic on your own to bait the Waste on your Dual. That is a very real possibility that doesn't fall away from the premise.

[Protoaddict]

Bloodmoon is a card, so yes you almost always play an on color basic.

I guess my contention is that you are dismissing green in favor of having a more streamlined mana base at 2 colors, and that makes sense. But I'm not sure I agree with you when you say you get more from going 2 colors. As a for instance you could easily play a single Tropical island and an ancient grudge if you needed removal. That may or may not be better in some match ups than the options you have at your disposal and your vulnerability to being wasted out I think becomes substantially less because you have gush in your list already.

Yes maybe responding to waste with gush is not the proper play, but then if you are proactively gushing your are not leaving targets on the table either. Note this has nothing to do with green specifically but any splash color, green just happens to be the best example because of grudge.

[Smmenen]

In my original post, I suggested that the mana base stability of going to two colors is somewhat marginal.  So, please don't overstate my views on that. 

While a useful framing, I don't even think the issue is really about RUG v. UR, but about how to build an optimal URx Delver deck. 

I would run the exact same maindeck even if I had green. 

Once you make a decision not to run Fastbond in a deck like this, as was made early on, then the question comes whether you run these cards:

Goyf
Trygon
Nature's Claim
Etc

I've considered cutting the Cages from the board and adding a Tropical Island and 3 Nature's Claim, and adding a Trop maindeck.  That would, technically, be RUG, but it wouldn't have any green spells in the maindeck.  The reason I haven't made that cut is because I'm nervous about just having 4 Leylines against Dredge -- that's obviously not a viable plan. 

That said, the mana base stability does come into play post board much more than pre-board.   

Post board, you can fetch out Island, Island, Mountain, and pretty much do anything you want.  Soly's primer on RUG has 2 basics in the sb, because you want/need both Mountain and Forest. 

[JarofFortune]

I've considered cutting the Cages from the board and adding a Tropical Island and 3 Nature's Claim, and adding a Trop maindeck.  That would, technically, be RUG, but it wouldn't have any green spells in the maindeck.  The reason I haven't made that cut is because I'm nervous about just having 4 Leylines against Dredge -- that's obviously not a viable plan. 

That said, the mana base stability does come into play post board much more than pre-board.   

I once tested a UR list that splashed green off 2 trops for Claim and Grudge (Back when I thought Pyromancer was better than Tarmogoyf). Grudge is imo one of the best anti-workshop cards, and definitely worth it off a splash. Claim is also a great anti-oath card, but as you said, your sideboard slots have to do double duty when possible, and 4 anti Dredge cards is not enough. Therefore, Cage is the right choice in the sideboard for that slot, but I would suggest running 1 grudge main deck and a few more in the board. When used in tandem with 1cc artifact destruction such as claim or chewer, the non-Kuldotha workshop matchup is practically a bye. The green splash is worth it just for that one card.

[Smmenen]

The strength of Goyf vis-a-vis Pyromancer may also be affected by design conditions, like the density of cantrips.  Some RUG decks, shockingly, don't even run full complements of Preordain. 

Ancient Grudge is great, but adding a single Ancient Grudge is basically equivalent to adding two cards to my deck, and I'm not even sure Ancient Grudge is better than the first Shattering Spree.  Grudge really shines in a deck that can deploy Moxen.  I only have 2. 

[JarofFortune]

Ancient Grudge is great, but adding a single Ancient Grudge is basically equivalent to adding two cards to my deck, and I'm not even sure Ancient Grudge is better than the first Shattering Spree.  Grudge really shines in a deck that can deploy Moxen.  I only have 2. 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough. The thing that really sets grudge apart is its instant speed, and the fact that you an spread its use out over time (Saving it for dangerous threats). You are really only cutting one card, because you would just cut a basic island for the trop. You will still have 2 basic islands after that, definitely enough.

[diopter]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough.

Can you elaborate on this statement?

[JarofFortune]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough.

Can you elaborate on this statement?

I am saying that running Grudge in a tempo deck with two moxen has worked very well for me. When you combine grudge with chewer/claim, you can cast grudge very reliably versus shops. It is my opinion that this is the best anti-workshop package that the deck can use in reasonable sideboard space. The one main deck Grudge is also a great card to draw randomly(or mystical for) in other matchups, such as fast combo or Time Vault.

[diopter]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough.

Can you elaborate on this statement?

I am saying that running Grudge in a tempo deck with two moxen has worked very well for me. When you combine grudge with chewer/claim, you can cast grudge very reliably versus shops. It is my opinion that this is the best anti-workshop package that the deck can use in reasonable sideboard space. The one main deck Grudge is also a great card to draw randomly(or mystical for) in other matchups, such as fast combo or Time Vault.

I was looking more for clarification on how a typical 17-18 mana deck can support this plan in a timely fashion without Moxen (and indeed, without more mana density in general).

I don't play with such decks very often, so I'm looking to figure out how the math works out for you such that you can assemble 3 mana reliably for the front side of Grudge, in time not to die to Shop's threats.

[Smmenen]

Yeah, that's my concern as well.  Even if you have two lands, with a Thorn/Sphere in play, it is functionally 1.   Ancient Grudge is a great card, but it performs best when supported by maximal artifact acceleration.   I wouldn't play Ancient Grudge over Ingot Chewer in the SB, and I suspect Shattering Spree is probably better. 

[tribet]

One cannot overlook Instant spot removal vs the Shop Matchup. If you're staying UR, I think the best 1CC or less are: Crash, Steel Sabotage or even Smelt. Other than that, I think good old Hurkyl's Recall is still king.

[Protoaddict]

You are running main deck counters against shops. It is not unreasonable to assume that if they drop a turn one sphere you will counter it a fair number of games when you can. That is the preferred play.

I don't understand with all the draw and countermagic in your list how you don't think you can get up to 2 mana + 1 for a sphere if need be. You are running a 3 drop creature in Vendillion Clique, and that does nothing to really fix your board state against shops unless you flash it in against an attacking lodestone at 4 mana+.

Honestly, VClique seems like the weakest link in your list. It's average against shops and not better than cheaper removal, its miserable against dredge, and honestly I am not so sure its great against any sort of creature.Dec in the format. An ancient grudge and a 4th bolt would probably be better in that match up. Hell a stipmine may be better in not only the shops matchup but also the dredge one and give you +1 land to play with.

[Templar]

This deck looks like it could be a lot of fun to play.  I may set aside my Oath shenanigans and try it out, to see if I like it.

[diopter]

You are running main deck counters against shops. It is not unreasonable to assume that if they drop a turn one sphere you will counter it a fair number of games when you can. That is the preferred play.

I don't understand with all the draw and countermagic in your list how you don't think you can get up to 2 mana + 1 for a sphere if need be. You are running a 3 drop creature in Vendillion Clique, and that does nothing to really fix your board state against shops unless you flash it in against an attacking lodestone at 4 mana+.

Other than that, I think good old Hurkyl's Recall is still king.

Let's set aside the deck for a moment and talk about how Force of Will decks interact with Workshop decks in general.

Many times, even if you open with Force of Will, the "correct" play in a lot of contexts (e.g. you mulled to a 6 card hand with FoW, weaker-vs-shops blue card like Snapcaster, 3 mana and an action card like Preordain) is not to force the first turn sphere.

That is because successful Shop pilots are competent and a.) mulligan to hands with multiple threats, and b.) generally sequence them to bait out Forces. So your FoW might expose you to (say) a follow-up Chalice @ 1 or Lodestone on turn 2, completely wrecking you.

Of course, the Shop pilot is still only too happy to see the 2Sphere resolve, as it plays right into his game plan of choking you out. Your first turn is going to be largely action-free as you lay down mana to FoW their A+ threat. Meanwhile they may continue to hit you with a bunch of Wires and stuff, and a good number of games you'll just lose to the weight of those multitude of B+ lock pieces. This is part of why Shops are so strong.

So you see, Forcing to build up mana for expensive reactive answers like Grudge, or Hurk, is really weak, in most contexts. You would rather save your Force, and still have the answer, just in cheaper form (e.g. I'd max out on Bolts and Chewers before adding the first Grudge).

Where Forcing the B+ threat is good is when you have a proactive threat (e.g. Delver or Pyro in this deck, Tarmogoyf in other Delver builds, Trygon or Dack in more mana-heavy archetypes). You typically want to play these before their huge threats hit the table, and they really allow you to flip roles against Shops as now they are on their back foot, a lot of their stuff doesn't matter, etc.

---

Back to this deck. It has 3 Bolts and 4 Chewers which are excellent cheap answers that play nicely with not Forcing the B+ threat. The manabase suggests that getting to three mana uninhibited is going to be challenging, let alone with Shop's next Sphere breathing down your neck.

If the deck needs anything, it's probably a.) more cheap answers to buy time; or b.) more proactive Delver-like threats to take advantage of the small windows of opportunity you get to play action.

The latter might actually be a good reason to splash green, so you can play both Pyro and Tarmo. But I'm just spitballing.

[Protoaddict]

My argument is that without a maindeck answer like ancient grudge that is not dead in other match ups, you may be put into a situation where you have to make the sub-optimal counter early on because you do not have answers for later. a single delver is probably not going to race a golem.

A force and an ancient grudge is enough hate typically to deal with 3 threats from shops, and that is usually over the course of 2 turns. 3 threats from shops typically equates to 3 cards, and I think you can safely assume that 2 cards in a hand they keep are mana sources.

As it stands this deck has no way to press a shops deck if it opens really strong until post board. Bolt is a straight 1 for 1 against golem that will require 2 of your mana sources, and it does not hit spheres. Trinisphere I think literally just shuts this deck off.

By the OPs own admission shops is a thing this list has to deal with. I contend that 1 or both of the VCliques would be better off as cheaper, more versatile cards. Even an off color mox can help you pay the tax on spheres and is not a dead drop elsewhere, and grudge is an all star in a lot of match ups. I'm not 100% sure that something like torchfiend would not wind up being better in a lot of real game states this list will find itself in.

[JarofFortune]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough.

Can you elaborate on this statement?

I am saying that running Grudge in a tempo deck with two moxen has worked very well for me. When you combine grudge with chewer/claim, you can cast grudge very reliably versus shops. It is my opinion that this is the best anti-workshop package that the deck can use in reasonable sideboard space. The one main deck Grudge is also a great card to draw randomly(or mystical for) in other matchups, such as fast combo or Time Vault.

I was looking more for clarification on how a typical 17-18 mana deck can support this plan in a timely fashion without Moxen (and indeed, without more mana density in general).

I don't play with such decks very often, so I'm looking to figure out how the math works out for you such that you can assemble 3 mana reliably for the front side of Grudge, in time not to die to Shop's threats.

On paper, Grudge may look hard to cast versus spheres. Sometimes, although not often, it is. The rest of the time, however, I can either build enough mana to cast it or blow up a sphere. Steel Sabotage, FoW, and Spell Snare can keep spheres off the table to buy you enough time to shatter their board with Grudge. Generally, I have the mana to do this as long as I don't keep 1 landers without cantrips. For Reference, here is my anti-shop package for my Rug list:

Maindeck:
1 Steel Sabotage (It used to be 2, back when my meta was more shop-heavy)
1 Ancient Grudge
4 bolt (I don't like fire//ice right now, and I have considered cutting 1 bolt for a dismember)
4 Fow
2 Spell Snare (It hits a lot of stuff across all non-Dredge matchups)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Dismember

Barring an insane draw from the shops player, I destroy shops using this suite of disruption. It allows you to last through to the late game, where you are favored due to your superior card selection, and ideally you are pressuring them with a threat this entire time. Even Kuldotha is a slightly favorable matchup. The great part about this package is that all of the pieces have utility in other matchups, even the Grudges.

One cannot overlook Instant spot removal vs the Shop Matchup. If you're staying UR, I think the best 1CC or less are: Crash, Steel Sabotage or even Smelt. Other than that, I think good old Hurkyl's Recall is still king.

I don't think Hurkyl's is what this deck wants to be doing. Hurkyl's can be a great tempo play, but unless you already have an overwhelming board or a hand filled with counters and spot removal you will still have to deal with their threats again. This deck doesn't have a combo to win instantly after a Hurkyl's. It needs to grind its way to the finish. It can help in some situations if you slip a threat through the cracks post-Hurkyl's, but I would not play more than one.

[Onslaught]

For what it's worth, Pulverize is something I've messed with to go with 4 Bolts and 2 Steel Sabotage MD (-1 Fire/Ice -1 Scroll +1 Mystical) and Shops feels perfectly winnable to me.

Mystical in general feels more powerful than Scroll, simply because Time Walk is such an easy way to win in this deck.

SB: 3 Ravenous Trap, 4 Cage, 4 Chewer, 2 Mountain, 2 Pulverize

[Protoaddict]

I don't think Hurkyl's is what this deck wants to be doing. Hurkyl's can be a great tempo play, but unless you already have an overwhelming board or a hand filled with counters and spot removal you will still have to deal with their threats again. This deck doesn't have a combo to win instantly after a Hurkyl's. It needs to grind its way to the finish. It can help in some situations if you slip a threat through the cracks post-Hurkyl's, but I would not play more than one.

Agree here. Hurkyls is good if your going to win with your on board stuff, but considering this deck does not have any strips or wastes, there is a strong possibility that they will reslam their hand down next turn after you do this.

[Smmenen]

4 Wasteland
1 Strip

So, you aren't running Gush?  No wonder you don't like Pyromancer....

[JarofFortune]

4 Wasteland
1 Strip

So, you aren't running Gush?  No wonder you don't like Pyromancer....

I do run Gush. Three to be exact. I cut the fourth because i didn't like drawing multiples in the early game. Believe it or not, Gush is still a great card in the deck. Having to delay a land drop through wastes does not affect the performance of Gush, because I see Gush as a spell for the mid to late game.

[diopter]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Grudge. You don't need full moxen for it to be effective. Two is enough.

Can you elaborate on this statement?

I am saying that running Grudge in a tempo deck with two moxen has worked very well for me. When you combine grudge with chewer/claim, you can cast grudge very reliably versus shops. It is my opinion that this is the best anti-workshop package that the deck can use in reasonable sideboard space. The one main deck Grudge is also a great card to draw randomly(or mystical for) in other matchups, such as fast combo or Time Vault.

I was looking more for clarification on how a typical 17-18 mana deck can support this plan in a timely fashion without Moxen (and indeed, without more mana density in general).

I don't play with such decks very often, so I'm looking to figure out how the math works out for you such that you can assemble 3 mana reliably for the front side of Grudge, in time not to die to Shop's threats.

On paper, Grudge may look hard to cast versus spheres. Sometimes, although not often, it is. The rest of the time, however, I can either build enough mana to cast it or blow up a sphere. Steel Sabotage, FoW, and Spell Snare can keep spheres off the table to buy you enough time to shatter their board with Grudge. Generally, I have the mana to do this as long as I don't keep 1 landers without cantrips. For Reference, here is my anti-shop package for my Rug list:

Maindeck:
1 Steel Sabotage (It used to be 2, back when my meta was more shop-heavy)
1 Ancient Grudge
4 bolt (I don't like fire//ice right now, and I have considered cutting 1 bolt for a dismember)
4 Fow
2 Spell Snare (It hits a lot of stuff across all non-Dredge matchups)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Dismember

Barring an insane draw from the shops player, I destroy shops using this suite of disruption. It allows you to last through to the late game, where you are favored due to your superior card selection, and ideally you are pressuring them with a threat this entire time. Even Kuldotha is a slightly favorable matchup. The great part about this package is that all of the pieces have utility in other matchups, even the Grudges.

One cannot overlook Instant spot removal vs the Shop Matchup. If you're staying UR, I think the best 1CC or less are: Crash, Steel Sabotage or even Smelt. Other than that, I think good old Hurkyl's Recall is still king.

I don't think Hurkyl's is what this deck wants to be doing. Hurkyl's can be a great tempo play, but unless you already have an overwhelming board or a hand filled with counters and spot removal you will still have to deal with their threats again. This deck doesn't have a combo to win instantly after a Hurkyl's. It needs to grind its way to the finish. It can help in some situations if you slip a threat through the cracks post-Hurkyl's, but I would not play more than one.

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

[Smmenen]

Absolutely.  it also dramatically changes the capacity of your deck to pursue both roles.  In a deck with 22 mana sources, Goyf is probably superior because the dual role capacity of Pyromancer is less valuable than just a pure beater. 

[JarofFortune]

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

It only runs 20. That's just 3 more than Steve's list, so I wouldn't say it makes a drastic difference. The more relevant effect of the wastes is that they make the shop player stumble.

Absolutely.  it also dramatically changes the capacity of your deck to pursue both roles.  In a deck with 22 mana sources, Goyf is probably superior because the dual role capacity of Pyromancer is less valuable than just a pure beater. 

    Its not for this reason that I run Goyf. I run 20 mana sources and 10 creatures, so Pyromancer and Delver have 30 cards to trigger from. I originally did run Pyromancer, but it wasn't pulling its weight. I suppose that I have no need to argue further now that we seem to understand each other. Pyromancer works wonders for you, so I wholeheartedly encourage you to keep running it, I will just keep running Tarmogoyf. This may just be our clashing views of what a Vintage tempo deck should look like.  However, I do suggest that you test Grudge, as it was very strong even back when I had 18 mana sources and no wastes. Either way, your workshop matchup is great, I just believe that Grudge can tilt it maximally in your favor, while the one main deck copy can give you a better game one(Hitting other decks, too). In most match ups, even against deck that aren't centered on artifacts, I like leaving Grudge in because it gives me an out to things such as Jitte, or randomly blow up moxen to slow them down. It is a bit better with Mystical, which I think you should consider trying out over Scroll.

[Smmenen]

Absolutely.  it also dramatically changes the capacity of your deck to pursue both roles.  In a deck with 22 mana sources, Goyf is probably superior because the dual role capacity of Pyromancer is less valuable than just a pure beater. 

    Its not for this reason that I run Goyf. I run 20 mana sources and 10 creatures, so Pyromancer and Delver have 30 cards to trigger from. I originally did run Pyromancer, but it wasn't pulling its weight. I suppose that I have no need to argue further now that we seem to understand each other.

Eh.   You have consistently asserted that Tarmogoyf is objectively better than Pyromancer, not that it's better in your deck.  You said "(Back when I thought Pyromancer was better than Tarmogoyf)."   

You never caveated that "Goyf is better in MY list."  You made a blanket claim about the relative merits of each card in the abstract. 

The way your list is designed I think Goyf is probably the better card, but that does not mean that Goyf is better in general.  In fact, I think the opposite is true.  The flexible, dynamic, and far more versatile uses for Pyromancer I think make it a better card in Vintage (but not necessarily Legacy).   

The reason Pyromancer wasn't pulling its weight is because your deck is not designed to be optimized in a long game.   

My deck is an excellent tempo deck, but also has an incredible long game, and can seize both the Beatdown and Control roles.  That's why Pyromancer shines.   Pyromancer is the ultimate versatile/flexible tool.  He generates permanent advantage against workshops, he is the ultimate defense against aggro decks (Aggro decks can't break through my wall of tokens), trumps cards like Jace or spot removal, and generates an evasive win condition in the end game.   He basically scales to skill level, which is insane for a tempo finisher. 

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

It only runs 20. That's just 3 more than Steve's list, so I wouldn't say it makes a drastic difference.

Actually, it is.   The virtual card advantage generated by my low mana count is a key part of my deck.  Your decks use of Wastelands means that you lose critical late game advantages by having too much mana.   Your deck has a more tenuous grasp on the late game than mine does, which explains why you prefer Goyf.  You need to win the early game or you lose. 

Strategically, it should be obvious to readers why my deck is better positioned.  I can stall out your decks ground game with tokens, and eventually take control.   

[gkraigher]

Steve,

It's obvious to me how streamlined your deck is at making the most out of young pyromancer.  I've heard arguments before about growing vertically (Tarmogoyf) vs growing horizontally (pyromancer), and right now the latter is the way to go.

I'm dusting off the AQ triskelions from the box and putting them back in the board. 

[diopter]

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

It only runs 20. That's just 3 more than Steve's list, so I wouldn't say it makes a drastic difference. The more relevant effect of the wastes is that they make the shop player stumble. 

What's the frequency of a 3-of showing up in the opening 7? 30%? That's the difference, it's substantial imo.

I'm interested in this line of play though. I assume you go T1 Delver, T2 Waste? I'm intrigued, though I really think you need to max out moxen so you can lay your Pyro or Goyf before that disrupting Waste effect.

Of course, the mana density required for these lines is not really conducive to what Delver tempo is trying to do. But interesting nonetheless.

[JarofFortune]

I was hoping we could end this, but oh well.

Eh.   You have consistently asserted that Tarmogoyf is objectively better than Pyromancer, not that it's better in your deck.  You said "(Back when I thought Pyromancer was better than Tarmogoyf)."  

You never caveated that "Goyf is better in MY list."  You made a blanket claim about the relative merits of each card in the abstract.  

You seem to think that I claimed Goyf is only better in my list. That is not what I said. My claim is that Goyf is better creature in the current Vintage meta for tempo. I will admit, it is very close, but from my testing I have concluded that Tarmogoyf does the most. . Keep in mind that I have not just tested my version of Rug, I have tested several different tempo decks, both with and without wastelands.  The lack of Tarmogoyf is what made me abandon Grixis and UR. The only reason i posted parts of my list were to give an idea of what an ideal anti-workshop package is for this type of deck.

The reason Pyromancer wasn't pulling its weight is because your deck is not designed to be optimized in a long game.  

That is not the main reason, actually. The main reason I cut Pyromancer was because Pyromacer itself could not attack into my opponent's creatures often enough. Really the only creature Pyromancer can swing into in a vacuum is Bob. This means that I have to wait multiple turns before the tokens can make any sizable change in their life total. Situations like these should theoretically happen even less in a deck like mine, due to my greater amount of removal, counter spells that hit creatures, and wastes to keep blockers off the table. However, this happened to me far too often. Tarmogoyf has the ability to attack through nearly everything with impunity. You may claim that because Pyromancer gets better as the game goes longer that it won't matter, however the inherent swinginess of Vintage makes this very risky. Yes, tempo decks can play control. However, as the game goes longer your hand will get worn down. It happened a lot even when I was testing your list, and every other tempo deck with Pyromancer that I tried(Both with and without wastelands). Long term card advantage with Gush doesn't always win the game in more brutal match ups such as Bug Fish or Landstill. The Pyromancer itself being bogged down and only providing a small force of tokens at first is horrible for tempo and increases the likelihood of being outclassed on the board by opposing creatures or just straight up dying.      
 

 He basically scales to skill level, which is insane for a tempo finisher.  

Could you please elaborate?

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

It only runs 20. That's just 3 more than Steve's list, so I wouldn't say it makes a drastic difference.

Actually, it is.   The virtual card advantage generated by my low mana count is a key part of my deck.  Your decks use of Wastelands means that you lose critical late game advantages by having too much mana.   Your deck has a more tenuous grasp on the late game than mine does, which explains why you prefer Goyf.  You need to win the early game or you lose.  
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        You run one more Gush and one more Preordain than I do. You run 3 less mana sources. That gives you a slightly better long game than I do, but the statement that I need to win the early game or lose is a fallacy. If that were true, I would change the deck to straight-up Canadian Threshold and max out on Stifles and Dazes, which maximizes my chances of extending the early game. If I was only concerned with the early game, I would not run Gush, which is more of a mid game or late game spell in both decks.  I do have more emphasis on the early game than you do, yes, but I can easily play Control and win in the late game if it is called for. The reason I have a tad more emphasis on the early game than you is because it is not a good idea to play control versus Combo-Control Decks or Landstill. For every game you outdraw Combo-Control by chaining gushes and cantrips, there will be a game where you both have spent hands an your opponent's tutor capabilities and high chances of just drawing a bomb will win the game. I don't need to explain why trying to play control against Landstill is a bad idea.  

Strategically, it should be obvious to readers why my deck is better positioned.  I can stall out your decks ground game with tokens, and eventually take control.  

Do you mean better positioned against my deck or better positioned in the overall meta? Your second sentence suggests that this matchup is in your favor, though I have found that it is about even.

      

Since the maindeck contains the 5 strip effects, I assume that the list has to have at least 22 mana. That changes the context in which Grudge is evaluated imo.

It only runs 20. That's just 3 more than Steve's list, so I wouldn't say it makes a drastic difference. The more relevant effect of the wastes is that they make the shop player stumble. 

What's the frequency of a 3-of showing up in the opening 7? 30%? That's the difference, it's substantial imo.

Drawing lands in the opening hand is not a concern. This is a good thing, actually. Keep in mind that 5 of the lands are Waste effects, which are Ideal for openers. Another thing to consider is that I run less colored sources than Steve does, and nearly as many cantrips, making mana flood very unlikely.   

I'm interested in this line of play though. I assume you go T1 Delver, T2 Waste? I'm intrigued, though I really think you need to max out moxen so you can lay your Pyro or Goyf before that disrupting Waste effect.

   It often goes like that. There is no need to run more than three moxen in this deck, and I run two. Typically I wait until I land a threat before using Waste. When It comes to Tarmogoyf, I am perfectly fine Playing it on turn 3 to leave mana up, or even on turn 2 If I have Daze/Fow in hand. Landing a tarmogoyf turn 1 off a lotus or mix is just a nice surprise. 

Of course, the mana density required for these lines is not really conducive to what Delver tempo is trying to do. But interesting nonetheless.

    Not really. You seem to overestimate the density of mana in my deck. Wasteland is definitely what a tempo deck wants to be doing after it lands a threat, That way, the opponent stumbles and loses valuable tempo. As long as you can survive to the late game while beating them down, you should be set to win. Wasteland is superb in doing this.

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Drawing lands in the opening hand is not a concern. This is a good thing, actually. Keep in mind that 5 of the lands are Waste effects, which are Ideal for openers. Another thing to consider is that I run less colored sources than Steve does, and nearly as many cantrips, making mana flood very unlikely.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree that the drawing the lands more often is a good thing in the Shops matchup is a good thing, and thus the context for your Grudges is different than Steve's deck.

I really disagree about the Moxen though. If you are waiting until you can land a threat to Waste, then that means every Delver-less hand you open is going to wait until turn 3 to Waste, which means your Shop opponent gets 1-3 activations of his Shop (depending on play/draw and when he plays it...). That's a lot of activations.

Mulligans change this equation of course. You are free to mulligan to your Delver the way your opponent mulligans to his Shop or Tomb hand. That's the part of the equation I'm missing, whether Delver's mulligans can trump Espresso's mulligans. On its face I would be pessimistic.

Could you expound on your test results a bit? Under what conditions (e.g. tournament/two-fist/Cockatrice) are you achieving such a beatdown on Stax?