UR Delver

[JarofFortune]

Rug Can handle the creature decks pretty well, actually, since most things die to bolt anyways. I don't think white is worth it for a few extra percentage points when your chances against shops go down significantly. I don't like Stoneforge because it takes up a lot of deck space, it's tough to hard cast batterskull reliably,and both Pyromancer and Goyf are usually stronger. If it's other creature decks you're worried about, try stuff like true-name and Jitte out of the board.

[Bibendum]

I went 5-2 and ended up top 16 on 4 color delver,  without straying too much from the core of this deck DRS and Abrupt Decay were really amazing in most problematic match up's. Something people might want to tool around with

[Smmenen]

Jimmy McCarthy and Soly I think played 4c Delver at NYSE, and I saw that someone played it to 2nd place at Gencon this year. 

[JACO]

Jimmy McCarthy and Soly I think played 4c Delver at NYSE, and I saw that someone played it to 2nd place at Gencon this year.

It was Serious teammate Sam Krohlow, who took Jimmy's list and cut some crappy cards, strengthened the mana base, and added Young Pyromancer. The list can be seen here:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/gencon-2014-friday-vintage-decklists-metagame-breakdown-and-pictures/

There's probably a better place to discuss that, like making a new 4C Delver thread.

[DaveKap]

-

[nedleeds]

I'm not sure about 1 null rod in a deck with no tutors, no gush and only cantrip manipulation. It looks nice laying on the table but the chance of having it when you need it seems marginal. There are blue instants that help vs. artifacts, these can be tutored for (merchant, mystical), and they  flip you delver which is the best card in your deck. Nivmagus is cute but Snapcaster is pretty powerful in a deck full of bolts. Also not a fan of Petal in a deck with all 1's and pitch spells. I guess it sort of helps vs. shops, but I'd rather just have the card Island since on the draw in the blind it's nice to ignore chalice 0.

[JarofFortune]

Why cut gush? Wasteland does seem good in the east coast meta, but then why not cut some of the random one-ofs and instead? Is skullclamp really better than Gush?  You lose a lot of your advantage against other blue decks by cutting Gush, as well as a lot of the strength of Pyromancer. Also, If you're expecting a lot if shops, consider adding two more Dazes(but not one, two dazes is the most awkward amount possible). Do you own any Tropical Islands? Adding green lets you run Grudge and claim, both of which are good in multiple matchups. Additionally, Goyf is very underplayed. I would say it is better than the Nivmagus and clique. You only need two tropical islands for whatever amount of green you add.

[boggyb]

Sweet.

Have you tried a Grixis build with Cabal Therapies and maybe Dark Confidant? The Pyromancer + Therapy interaction is surprisingly potent, esp. with all those Probes. Black gives you access to Jailer in the board, which solves your softness to Dredge nicely.

[msg67183]

The counter suite I like in Delver decks is actually this:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce

This combination was used at Champs by AJ Grasso last year and I think this suite works very well.

[DaveKap]

.

[Samoht]

I think you might want more dredge hat Dave, Bazaar's WILL be there.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I think it's pointless to play this deck without any way to gain card advantage. The good thing about this deck is that you can play it without power, but you should still play gush. Even with wastelands. Honeslty I don't see the reason to not play gush and you didn't explain this either, which I think you should... I mean, it's a gush deck after all. The decision to cut snapcasters I can understand: The primary reason to play them - ancestral recall - is gone. The deck surely looks quite aggressive, which I like. I don't like that you don't have a single card that nets you card advantage.

To put in the 4 gushes (you can also just play 3, but I would strongly recommend to play 4), I would cut 4 of the following 5 cards:

1 mental misstep (3 are enough in my experience, Menendian also went to 3)
1 daze
1 gitaxian probe
1 wasteland
1 null rod

I think two null rods are enough, because multiples do nothing, and I also think 3 wastelands are enough, especially if you play gush. You don't try to hard lock your opponents, just take away some tempo.

[DaveKap]

-

[DaveKap]

I think it's pointless to play this deck without any way to gain card advantage. The good thing about this deck is that you can play it without power, but you should still play gush. Even with wastelands. Honeslty I don't see the reason to not play gush and you didn't explain this either, which I think you should... I mean, it's a gush deck after all. The decision to cut snapcasters I can understand: The primary reason to play them - ancestral recall - is gone. The deck surely looks quite aggressive, which I like. I don't like that you don't have a single card that nets you card advantage.

To put in the 4 gushes (you can also just play 3, but I would strongly recommend to play 4), I would cut 4 of the following 5 cards:

1 mental misstep (3 are enough in my experience, Menendian also went to 3)
1 daze
1 gitaxian probe
1 wasteland
1 null rod

I think two null rods are enough, because multiples do nothing, and I also think 3 wastelands are enough, especially if you play gush. You don't try to hard lock your opponents, just take away some tempo.

This is much more of a vintage port of Legacy RUG Delver then a modification of Vintage Delver. After board, I have available a combination of 7 Strips + 3 Null Rod + 4 mana denial counters + 6 artifact destruction spells, which has been legitimate mana denial. With 14 Islands, I don't always have 2 available to Gush. I could open up the whole mana denial Virtual Card Advantage discussion.

I'll try cutting Daze and a Mystical for 2 Gush and go from there. Thanks for input.

[msg67183]

I think you might want more dredge hat Dave, Bazaar's WILL be there.

4 Cage + 2 Ghost Quarter + a Chewer or 2 to blowup Bridges seems right. I'm liking Ghost Quarter > Surgical/Trap

With no way to tutor for any of this, I don't think it's strong enough. If you have Mystical Tutor then Ravenous Trap or Surgical Extraction seem like auto includes... Plus none of this flips delver, the most important card in the deck, and you deffinietly need speed against Dredge

[boggyb]

Speaking of which, I don't see the call for Mystical here. It's usually for Time Walk, Ancestral, or an answer card, but you don't really have those. It's massively tempo-negative so seems like a clean cut for Gush, to me. Or if you keep it, and add Gush, do please side 1 Rav Trap. Mystical for Trap -> Gush -> Trap is very potent.

And yeah, seconding the call for Gush. It is just too good to ignore -- in the top 5 list of unrestricted cards right now. 14 islands is plenty, especially with 4 preordain, 1 ponder.

[JarofFortune]

I think you might want more dredge hat Dave, Bazaar's WILL be there.

4 Cage + 2 Ghost Quarter + a Chewer or 2 to blowup Bridges seems right. I'm liking Ghost Quarter > Surgical/Trap

With no way to tutor for any of this, I don't think it's strong enough. If you have Mystical Tutor then Ravenous Trap or Surgical Extraction seem like auto includes... Plus none of this flips delver, the most important card in the deck, and you deffinietly need speed against Dredge

Delver is not the most important card in the deck, especially against Dredge. Any efficient threat will do if you have hate. Tarmogoyf will actually kill them faster.  I do agree that slightly more universal Gy hate is needed, such as Trap. Ghost quarters and wastes are excellent, but they need to be backed up by a trap or a cage.

I think it's pointless to play this deck without any way to gain card advantage. The good thing about this deck is that you can play it without power, but you should still play gush. Even with wastelands. Honeslty I don't see the reason to not play gush and you didn't explain this either, which I think you should... I mean, it's a gush deck after all. The decision to cut snapcasters I can understand: The primary reason to play them - ancestral recall - is gone. The deck surely looks quite aggressive, which I like. I don't like that you don't have a single card that nets you card advantage.

To put in the 4 gushes (you can also just play 3, but I would strongly recommend to play 4), I would cut 4 of the following 5 cards:

1 mental misstep (3 are enough in my experience, Menendian also went to 3)
1 daze
1 gitaxian probe
1 wasteland
1 null rod

I think two null rods are enough, because multiples do nothing, and I also think 3 wastelands are enough, especially if you play gush. You don't try to hard lock your opponents, just take away some tempo.

This is much more of a vintage port of Legacy RUG Delver then a modification of Vintage Delver. After board, I have available a combination of 7 Strips + 3 Null Rod + 4 mana denial counters + 6 artifact destruction spells, which has been legitimate mana denial. With 14 Islands, I don't always have 2 available to Gush. I could open up the whole mana denial Virtual Card Advantage discussion.

I'll try cutting Daze and a Mystical for 2 Gush and go from there. Thanks for input.

While a full on port of the Legacy Version with Stifles is impossible in this metagame, you are correct that enough Mana denial creates tons of Virtual Card advantage, and tempo. However, sometimes the Mana denial side of your deck won't work, so by adding Gush you can give yourself a massive advantage. This also means you can run less lands, and cut all of your Basics.

I wouldn't cut Mystical or Daze for a gush. I'd start by cutting one rod, your basic island, and the probe. Probe is a good card, but Gush just gives you so much more power at the cost of being a mid game spell. Because you run so may cantrips, you're pretty likely to find one of two rods in a game. The reason 2 is the worst number for daze is that you want it early but it is more dead in the late game. Once you add Gush, you don't need the basic, or the mountain in the board.

Keep all 4 misstep. That card is insane.

The rest is a meta call. If you expect a lot of Merfolk and Delver/UW control, try out some Pyroblasts in the main deck and board. If you are expecting lots of shops, stick with the 5 waste effects. Good Luck!

[msg67183]

Here is a list my buddy and I have been working on for him:

Black Lotus 

Mox Sapphire 

Mox Ruby 

Ancestral Recall 

Brainstorm 

4 Delver of Secrets 

3 Flusterstorm 

4 Force of Will 

4 Gush 

Mystical Tutor 

Ponder 

4 Preordain 

3 Spell Pierce 

1 Fire/Ice 

Time Walk 

1 Ancient Grudge 

4 Lightning Bolt 

4 Young Pyromancer 


2 Scalding Tarn 

2 Flooded Strand 

2 Misty Rainforest 

1 Polluted Delta 

2 Island 

3 Tropical Island 

3 Volcanic Island 


Sideboard:


2 Ancient Grudge 

2 Hurkyl's Recall 

4 Surgical Extraction

4 Nature's Claim 

3 Ravenous Trap 

The list is obviously powered so that gives you 5 extra slots to go with. The deck has proven it's worth and I think this deck looks solid and I don't even like Delver, I think the card isnt optimal, but that's just my bias. This deck has a lot of the angles covered. The reason I noted Delver was the best card in the deck was because the entire deck is named after it, so it's pretty important to the deck.

[Hrishi]

Keep in mind that these lists are quite different, as the one you posted is not running the mana denial package at all. I also might be biased here but I found the wastelands to be a beating.

[msg67183]

Keep in mind that these lists are quite different, as the one you posted is not running the mana denial package at all. I also might be biased here but I found the wastelands to be a beating.

I don't think mana denial is needed in Delver. This list plays 14 Counters, that's almost Landstill level of Counterspells. It then preceeds to out tempo other decks with effecient creatures in Delver and Pyromancer. If he wanted to add denial I would actually go with Stifles over Wastelands or Null Rod since they still attain to the main goal of the deck, Flip Delver and Trigger Pyromancer.

[JarofFortune]

Keep in mind that these lists are quite different, as the one you posted is not running the mana denial package at all. I also might be biased here but I found the wastelands to be a beating.

I don't think mana denial is needed in Delver. This list plays 14 Counters, that's almost Landstill level of Counterspells. It then preceeds to out tempo other decks with effecient creatures in Delver and Pyromancer. If he wanted to add denial I would actually go with Stifles over Wastelands or Null Rod since they still attain to the main goal of the deck, Flip Delver and Trigger Pyromancer.

I have tried Stifle. Twice. It rots in your hand far too often to be worth the slot, even against Blue Decks. Wasteland is needed for a Good Shop Matchup. Hell, I once beat Terra Nova on the draw, in large part because of Wasteland. Wasteland is also good against lots of other decks too. You don't even have to lock them out for multiple turns for Wasteland to be good. Cutting them off one color can be brutal. If you get them off Blue, even  better. While I don't run Null Rod, I know how good it is in tandem with Wasteland from playing against Merfolk. Seriously, it's excellent in the deck. When Wasteland is not so good is when your metagame is infested by other Gush and Delver decks(i.e., Northern California).

You can easily run Wasteland and flip Delver. You can still be a good Gush deck, too.  The main goal of the deck is not to flip Delver and Trigger Pyromancer. The goal of the deck is to kill them and prevent then from executing their game plan. You threats are rarely fast enough to race things like Kuldotha or Tinker, so you run disruption. Another thing the deck can do is wait to play a threat while being a control deck, or even use its creatures as control cards. This is why a hand without a threat can be keepable.

The list is obviously powered so that gives you 5 extra slots to go with. The deck has proven it's worth and I think this deck looks solid and I don't even like Delver, I think the card isnt optimal, but that's just my bias. This deck has a lot of the angles covered. The reason I noted Delver was the best card in the deck was because the entire deck is named after it, so it's pretty important to the deck.

I wouldn't call it bias. I agree with your analysis of Delver to an extent. I've always found the best threat to be Tarmogoyf by far. Deck name does not determine anything.

[AlmostGrown]

I think Goyf is better in the mirror - he cant be mental mistepped!

[MoonDark]

Anyone tested treasure cruise? I suggested in the card thread that it could be very strong in this deck, but haven't tested it myself.

[JarofFortune]

Anyone tested treasure cruise? I suggested in the card thread that it could be very strong in this deck, but haven't tested it myself.

I've tried some in Rug(the list runs Goyfs over pyromancers as a disclaimer). I found cruise to be very strong. It is definitely possible to alter your deck to run four, but that version has a bit of a worse shop matchup. Just adding two or even three could be the way to go, but that would require more testing. Regardless of the correct number,the archetype should be playing some amount of Cruises going forward.

[serracollector]

I have tested it but i dropped a few cards for git probe and mana morphose to fill my grave faster. its def been good for me.

[DaveKap]

.

[thecrav]

Anyone tested treasure cruise? I suggested in the card thread that it could be very strong in this deck, but haven't tested it myself.

I played against it online earlier today. There was something strange I couldn't quite put my finger on and then the guy cast Cruise. I'll go over the reply when I get home to see if I can pinpoint some of the stuff he'd done.

It's definitely strong; especially if Pyromancer is already out. Failing to counter it generally gives them your choice of dudes (bad) or counters (that also make dudes - super bad)

On a related note, I'm finding that one particular aspect of the mirror match to be quite difficult. If they get a Pyromancer online and I don't have or quickly draw a bolt, the game ends very quickly. After several games of this, I finally realized that at some point I'd gotten greedy and cut Fire//Ice (which I've now put back in) but in the situations I've wanted it, it's seemed like that wouldn't be enough. Doom comes too quickly when they have more than a couple tokens out. Does anyone have any ideas on this or should I just be countering the Pyromancer?

It occurs to me as I type this that Echoing Truth is a pretty good card and is hilarious against tokens.

[JarofFortune]

I would suggest Simoon. Pyroclasm is also a nice option, but it is much better in lists with Goyf. However, as good as board wipes are, the most important thing in the mirror is to outdraw them.

[cpankiewicz]

I've been playing a similar list with proxied power for a few events now and have been having a lot of fun with it.  In preparations to play in an unproxied event sacrifices were made but I must say that I have been overwhelmingly impressed with Treasure Cruise as a great fill in...

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Trygon Predator
Creatures: 10

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
Counter: 14

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Gush
1 Dack Fayden
1 Ancient Grudge
Card draw/Business: 18

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Lotus Petal
1 Strip Mine
Mana: 18

Side Board
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Shattering Spree
3 Grafdiggers Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyroblast
2 Xxxxxxxx

So there are a few spots I am still not sure about.  Big question is whether or not 4 gushes is still the right number with 4 Treasure Cruises. Gush has been great but a lot of times its just not the right time to gush and I end up feeling either behind or just stuck with it in hand. My thought is to go up to 4 Preordains and down to 2 Gush. Another concern is Trygon Predator.  Does it feel great to blow up other peoples moxen? Absolutely! Does it get pitched to Force more often than cast? You betcha! This makes it a concern that it is a incredibly weak link outside of shops matchups and with extra SB slots I still need to fill could it just be relegated to that? Would Vendilion Clique make more sense to have MD? Open to other suggestions as well.

[thecrav]

I would suggest Simoon. Pyroclasm is also a nice option, but it is much better in lists with Goyf. However, as good as board wipes are, the most important thing in the mirror is to outdraw them.

Well done - a card I'd never even heard of!

Based on my experience of the MTGO metagame, I'm probably going to cut some workshop or dredge hate and put in a couple.