UR Delver

[Smmenen]

Here's my latest list, and what I'm playing in the VSL playoffs.

URg Delver

By Stephen Menendian

2 Trygon Predator
3 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Gush
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor

3 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire/Ice

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection

1 Ancient Grudge

3 Volcanic island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

SB:

4 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Mountain

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Pyroblast

It's almost identical to what I played in the Vintage Championship.  The only difference is that I played 1 Spell Pierce over the 2nd Pyroblast and 1 Dack Fayden over the 2nd Misdirection.  It's what I'd play in a tournament tomorrow.  

I'll be writing a more extensive primer based upon my last 12 months of experience with this archetype.  

[Commandant]

Smmenen,
How do you board for Workshops? From my perspective you'd really want to take out 9 cards and the board only has 7 to bring in.

[Will]

Smmenen,
How do you board for Workshops? From my perspective you'd really want to take out 9 cards and the board only has 7 to bring in.

I would think that he either keeps in 2 Pyroblast for Metamorph or 2 Misdirection for Dismember and boards out the other blanks. Cages/Leylines could also come in to stop Forgemaster/Crucible shenanigans.

[Commandant]

Smmenen,
How do you board for Workshops? From my perspective you'd really want to take out 9 cards and the board only has 7 to bring in.

I would think that he either keeps in 2 Pyroblast for Metamorph or 2 Misdirection for Dismember and boards out the other blanks. Cages/Leylines could also come in to stop Forgemaster/Crucible shenanigans.

This makes sense but it also seems like a lot of dead slots for Workshops with the remaining two cards being relatively situational.

[Smmenen]

Smmenen,
How do you board for Workshops? From my perspective you'd really want to take out 9 cards and the board only has 7 to bring in.

I would think that he either keeps in 2 Pyroblast for Metamorph or 2 Misdirection for Dismember and boards out the other blanks. Cages/Leylines could also come in to stop Forgemaster/Crucible shenanigans.

Exactly. Against terra nova keep in Misd and agaisnt Martello, keep in Pyro.  Or, if in heavy Shop field add Dack maindeck for 2nd Misd

[Twiedel]

I finally found the time for my first few serious test games with this strategy. I wanted to start running a pure UR version and go from there, and I must say so far this deck has performed amazing against blue decks. Extremely consistent mana base with only two colors, and really all the stuff I needed to win in all my games on MoDo so far.

A few questions I could not answer right now:

- Is green really necessary to win the shops matchup? Isn't Ingot Chewer + Bolt + Shattering Spree enough?

It seems to me I am fine with two colors otherwise, and staying on a pure two color base would surely help against wastelands. Loosing Ancient Grudge and Trygon could be painful, but especially Trygon seems SO hard to cast with only 2-3 Moxen and nothing else to get around the Spheres.

- Is Trygon performing good in other matchups? (Oath comes to mind)

This is kind of the same question... does Trygon really get down fast enough? I've been working with a full set of Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard, and it was really good. So I guess this upside is really really slim, unless I'm missing another matchup here.

Let's see what you guys got =)

P.S.: I'm of course running two Dack main instead of the Trygons in the green version, and they seem to be just a worse Trygon in the Shops matchup with upsides in other matchups. Great performer so far...

[Smmenen]

The answers to your questions are exhaustively discussed earlier in this thread and in my NYSE report and accompanying thread. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46697.0

[breed]

Hi all!

I didn't play Vintage since 2 or 3 years, so my question can be a little bit dumb, but why cutting Emerald when you play delver with green? Seems good to help playing Pyromancer, Trygon, Dack or Walk early, no?

Thanks for answers guys!

[Samoht]

Hi all!

I didn't play Vintage since 2 or 3 years, so my question can be a little bit dumb, but why cutting Emerald when you play delver with green? Seems good to help playing Pyromancer, Trygon, Dack or Walk early, no?

Thanks for answers guys!

It doesn't really matter about how fast you cast those spells. Additionally for every time you have Emerald and something like Pyromancer to push out you draw an Emerald late game that has no use. The deck is very tight and aggressive as it is, a short term boost like Emerald is outweighed by the consistency of the other cards.

[Smmenen]

I actually like this deck more without 4 Treasure Cruise.  Gush is a more skill intensive card, and, I think, so is Dig Through Time. Mirror matches are less dumb, and I think that makes this a better weapon in a strong player's hand. 

I was skeptical of Dig Through Time as a Treasure Cruise replacement, but it's been nothing short of fantastic.  In fact, if suits my playstyle better than Treasure Cruise.  My latest list is going up on the VSL site soon, and you can watch my match from yesterday on youtube.

If folks haven't seen my Delver primer, its in the article forum: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47061.0

[Guli]

I think Dig is stronger in Delver, especially post board when you are in need of things like Cage, Ravenous Trap or counterspells/more gas. I think 7 deep for 2 that YOU choose, is better than top 3 random. It is like a semi-blue-demonic tutor.

[Smmenen]

that's a good point.  I wonder if that will improve the value of Rav Trap, which I've never been a fan of, against Dredge.

Last night I found that there were usually 2 clear cards I wanted in my top 7, or a clear best card, and then a tie for the second best. 

[Twiedel]

Having Dig over Cruise will for sure demand more decisions from the player. You can't just slam a 1-mana TC in your Mainphase but now you have to consider when to play it and what cards to get instead of just Ancestraling yourself. More decisions, more skill intensive cards - very good for the format I'd say.

But honestly, Dig is a mayor step down. I can't even recall how ofter it was relevant that Cruise was just 1 Mana instead of 2, and the top three cards were most of the time 3 Spells instead of two. Even if you drew a land along two spells, this would help you fuel the next Cruise... so mainly, a little less variance, but also a lot less Power. Not necessarily bad though.

What do you guys think is the best setup right now? I've been playing a split of 2 Gush + 4 Cruise before, and I'm thinking right now that 3 Gush + 1 Cruise + 2 Dig might be the correct setup for me. I felt bad playing only two Gushes anyway, but Cruise was just too strong in the mirror. Now I think that three Dig might be too much, as it is typically a turn slower than Cruise and I don't ever want to have two in my opening hand...

[youhavenogame]

What do you guys think is the best setup right now? I've been playing a split of 2 Gush + 4 Cruise before, and I'm thinking right now that 3 Gush + 1 Cruise + 2 Dig might be the correct setup for me. I felt bad playing only two Gushes anyway, but Cruise was just too strong in the mirror. Now I think that three Dig might be too much, as it is typically a turn slower than Cruise and I don't ever want to have two in my opening hand...

At least from a theoretical point of view I came to the exact same configuration. Gush is more easy to cast early, which makes me prefer run more copies of Gush over more copies of Dig. However, the tempo setback keeps me from playing the whole playset for now and I'm also concerned of setting my mana back against Shops. Dig is fantastic (especially in postboard games as has already been pointed out) but similar in clunkyness to Gush while needing more setup.

I'm not really sure how much I will miss the full set of Treasure Cruise. While it had the potential to just go into infinite card mode, more often than not I was trapped with addtional copies that I was never able to cast anyway. On the other hand though, pulling Cruise from just 1 Island was great and it often helped me catching up after missing some land drops. Overall I don't think the restriction will change much to the Delver deck.

[keys]

4 Gush
2 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise

4 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

...is still a very strong draw engine. I see that Smmenen played 3 Dig in his latest VML deck, but that seems a bit much to me. I think I'd rather play 1 Snappy in that spot.

[Smmenen]

Actually, I started with 2 Snap/1 Dig, and kept cutting Snapcaster for more Digs based on testing results.  Most of the time Dig was better or would have been better.

[youhavenogame]

I removed Snapcaster completely, as it prove to be just another clunky and underwhelming card. While the ability to recur Ancestral or Time Walk seems too powerful to give up, I often had trouble hitting the mana or I had to remove my power cards to fuel Dig and Cruise. The deck is at it best when it just flows and clunky draws prevent that from happening. I'd like to be able to operate as much as possible with as few mana sources as possible, and Snapcaster is pretty much dead until I already have a well established mana base. Another problem is that Snapcaster on Preordain is quite meh, as is tapping out mainphase for what is essentially a Striped Bear is not really worth it. Mystic Snake at the cost of Cancel doesn't impress me much as well, at least not in Vintage. 

[keys]

I still like being able to go Snap, Bolt, or Snap, Preordain. Hitting Ancestral or Time Walk is just a bonus.

[mueller]

Smmenen, I see that in your VSL list you have cut a Misdirection for a third Dig Through Time, relative to your Season 1 playoffs list. This assuming direct conversion to Dig Through Time from the now restricted Treasure Cruise.

I was wondering if this change had to do with your views on Dig Through Time vs. Treasure Cruise, as you have maintained the same total drawing power from your now four delve spells. Currently your list has 3+2+2+2 = 9 draw from the delve mechanic, equivalent to the three Treasure Cruises you ran before restriction. Obviously this is a superficial comparison, as your draw/card ratio is down from 3:1 to 2.25:1, while your total mana cost more than triples.

Or does this change have more to with the decline in value of the second Misdirection? Perhaps something to do with a decline in Abrupt Decay? Perhaps the SB Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale strengthen you (albeit very slightly) in the Oath matchup to an extent you feel misdirecting their Abrupt Decays is no longer such an important tact. Perhaps the increased ability of Dig Through Time to find Cages is compensation for less ability to protect the Cages? Perhaps a combination of small factors in the Oath matchup make you more confident weakening the specific Cage/Abrupt Decay/Misdirection/Trygon battle for stronger overall positioning?

I see that earlier you had Snapcaster Mages rather than the 3 Dig Through Times. Was the second Misdirection still the cut that enabled this?

I was wondering what your thought process regarding this change was, if you are willing to share.

[DaveKap]

I'm taking a more aggressive line with URw Aggro-Control, Mentorless, so it seems better suited for this thread. I tried Mentors and found that the vast majority of the time, I just wanted a pyromancer or Delver. Without lots of artifact mana to reliably accelerate out T1 or T2 w/ protection, I felt I was always playing catch up against every deck. White is strictly to upgrade Grafdigger's Cage to Containment Priest and get some Tears. With a strong presence of Oath and Workshops and a lack of Dredge in the current metagame, here's my approach:

Threat (8)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer

Draw (17)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gush
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise
0 Mystical Tutor

Counter (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
0 Flusterstorm/Pyroblast

Utility (7)
1 Wear/Tear
2 Dack Fayden
4 Lightning Bolt
0 Swords to Plowshares

Mana (18)
1 Island
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard (15)
2 Sudden Shock
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Annul
1 Shattering Spree
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Containment Priest

[The Atog Lord]

Hi Dave,

I think there are some real advantages to White being the tertiary color. It is worth noting that while the deck does become three-colors, White itself is not needed against Workshop decks and you can focus on protecting Blue and Red mana.

Looking at your list, the card that most made me unsure was Karakas. Has that been good? Karakas is very good at what it does. However, this is not a deck that is too able to use white mana, meaning the card is very close to something like a colorless land. And if that, is Library not better? I have been on 17 total mana sources myself, though I could see the virtue of an18th mana source in a Workshop-heavy metagame.

Likewise, has Annul been good? My concern with it is that, against Shops, it would be yet another victim to Chalice. That said, if you've had very good experiences, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

[DaveKap]

Hi Dave,

I think there are some real advantages to White being the tertiary color. It is worth noting that while the deck does become three-colors, White itself is not needed against Workshop decks and you can focus on protecting Blue and Red mana.

Looking at your list, the card that most made me unsure was Karakas. Has that been good? Karakas is very good at what it does. However, this is not a deck that is too able to use white mana, meaning the card is very close to something like a colorless land. And if that, is Library not better? I have been on 17 total mana sources myself, though I could see the virtue of an18th mana source in a Workshop-heavy metagame.

Likewise, has Annul been good? My concern with it is that, against Shops, it would be yet another victim to Chalice. That said, if you've had very good experiences, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

Maindeck Karakas is a 95% autowin against Oath and forces a Pithing Needle SB games. It is also a colorless source against Shops. I really like it. The Grizzly Bear feature of Containment Priest against Shops is viable. It also will catch some Forgemaster activations and swinging Factories/Revokers. I do like Annul alot. The pitchable to FoW virtue really is true here when lined up against Wear/Tear. I have not played with Library extensively, so I might not be giving it enough value, but I did not find it to be exceptional in an aggressive Pyromancer shell.

[The Atog Lord]

Thanks, Dave. I will have to test out some of these ideas.

[msg67183]

My list I've cut the third color altogether and have had a very strong list overall. I have also started playing Meltdown against Workshops, it's an all star card against them. If I expect to see a lot of Oath at an event I will play some number of Goblin Bombardments in my board to compliment my Cages.

[DaveKap]

My list I've cut the third color altogether and have had a very strong list overall. I have also started playing Meltdown against Workshops, it's an all star card against them. If I expect to see a lot of Oath at an event I will play some number of Goblin Bombardments in my board to compliment my Cages.

Can you share more about Meltdown? I'm intrigued, as I am not as big a fan of Shattering Spree as others seem to be and am looking for an all star, a la: Serenity, Pulverize, Meltdown, etc...

[Holden1669]

I've been playing the URg version online a bit and I'm trying to buy paper power as well (I've gotten the Time Walk, Sapphire and Ruby in the past week). There are a lot of Monastery Mentors online and I have a hard time beating them with UR. I've added two Sudden Shocks to the board but it hasn't helped much. Maybe the URw version could play Swords in the board? Or something. Anyone have any suggestions?

[msg67183]

I've been playing the URg version online a bit and I'm trying to buy paper power as well (I've gotten the Time Walk, Sapphire and Ruby in the past week). There are a lot of Monastery Mentors online and I have a hard time beating them with UR. I've added two Sudden Shocks to the board but it hasn't helped much. Maybe the URw version could play Swords in the board? Or something. Anyone have any suggestions?

Honestly, I haven't lost to any Mentor Decks yet in my testing. It seems like the Pyromancer Delver lists are just faster and more consistent and less mana hungry.

Currently my list is this:

Gott Delver?


Mana (17):


4 Volcanic Island 


4 Scalding Tarn 


1 Flooded Strand 


1 Polluted Delta 


1 Blue Fetch 


2 Island 


Strip Mine 


Black Lotus 


Mox Sapphire 


Mox Ruby 



Threats (10):


4 Young Pyromancer 


4 Delver of Secrets 


1 Dack Fayden 


Time Walk 



Counters (10):


4 Force of Will 


4 Mental Misstep 


2 Pyroblast 



Draw (18):


4 Preordain 


4 Gitaxian Probe 


3 Gush 


3 Dig Through Time 


Ponder 


Brainstorm 


Treasure Cruise 


Ancestral Recall 



Removal (5):


4 Lightning Bolt 


1 Fire / Ice 



Sideboard:


4 Ingot Chewer 


4 Grafdigger's Cage 


2 Tormod's Crypt 


2 Sudden Shock 


1 Meltdown 


1 Pyroblast 


1 Mountain 

As for Meltdown, the fact that it hits X or less like Pernicious Deed makes it very powerful and it can be played around Chalices from the opponent. It's a powerhouse and I'm considering on upping it to 2.

[youhavenogame]

Honestly, I haven't lost to any Mentor Decks yet in my testing. It seems like the Pyromancer Delver lists are just faster and more consistent and less mana hungry.

While true, an early Mentor still rapes Delver. Also, the version that also runs 2 Pyromancer has quite the threat density - don't underestimate it, they are probably the most likely to put up a good fight.

As for Meltdown, the fact that it hits X or less like Pernicious Deed makes it very powerful and it can be played around Chalices from the opponent. It's a powerhouse and I'm considering on upping it to 2.

Noob question since I haven't played that card in the last 15 years: does this work similar to Engineered Explosives? As in, my opponent has 2 Spheres in play and I cast it with "x=0" to destroy his Spheres?

[dangerlinto]

Honestly, I haven't lost to any Mentor Decks yet in my testing. It seems like the Pyromancer Delver lists are just faster and more consistent and less mana hungry.

While true, an early Mentor still rapes Delver. Also, the version that also runs 2 Pyromancer has quite the threat density - don't underestimate it, they are probably the most like to put up a good fight.

As for Meltdown, the fact that it hits X or less like Pernicious Deed makes it very powerful and it can be played around Chalices from the opponent. It's a powerhouse and I'm considering on upping it to 2.

Noob question since I haven't played that card in the last 15 years: does this work similar to Engineered Explosives? As in, my opponent has 2 Spheres in play and I cast it with "x=0" to destroy his Spheres?

I think you mean chalice, not spheres (Sphere of Resistance and thorn of Amethyst have CC = 2).

But yes.  It if impossible to cast Meltdown and not have it destroy Chalice of The Void (barring some other effect that makes their artifacts indestructible).  It's also impossible for it to not destroy every Mox on the board, including your own.

[xouman]

No, I think he really means spheres, not chalice.

With 2 spheres and Explosives, you can announce casting explosives for 0CC, and paying 1 blue mana and 1 white mana (for example) in order to pay for the spheres. So, the explosives enter play with 2 sunburst counters, and when activated, they will destroy all 2CC permanents in play (including spheres)

Meltdown would cost  : 2R to pay for killing the spheres, and 2 more because of the spheres.