Dance Magic Dance -- Blue White Fact or Fiction /Spirit of the Labyrinth Control

[vaughnbros]

As for Dark Confidant, I'd be hesitant to include him in a deck with 8 four-drops and 4 five-drops. I'd actually be more interested in splashing for Dack, since combined with Spirit he lets you build your very own Hymn to Tourach.

Spirit only makes dacks ability draw 1 discard 2 on your opponent.  So they aren't discarding at random and they are only losing 1 card.  Not exactly worth splashing a whole color for.

And that's where Notion Thief comes in. Mindculling as a +1 ability is pretty strong on a 3 mana planeswalker.

I'm sure you know whats even better for 3 mana when you have notion thief out... Drawing 14 cards and mindtwisting their whole hand away.

[Chubby Rain]

I'm sure you know whats even better for 3 mana when you have notion thief out... Drawing 14 cards and mindtwisting their whole hand away.

That never happens. This is much more realistic.

Edit: Sarcasm alert.

Post Edit Thought: You really don't need to run that many copies of Notion Thief to be effective. Just run him as a 1 of in a Baleful Richards deck that runs Dack anyway.

Post Edit On-Topic Thought: How good is Teferi in the side, Atog Lord? I liked him in Bomberman as he gave you a window to combo out without worrying about about creature removal for Salvagers. He seemed underwhelming when I was on the beatdown with creatures plan. I'd be curious about your experiences with him during the Invitational.

[Meddling Mike]

The more I think about it, the less I enjoy the name of this deck. There is both a Jareth AND a Goblin King as real Magic Cards and this does not include either of those cards. UNACCEPTABLE.

[rpf5029]

I'm sure you know whats even better for 3 mana when you have notion thief out... Drawing 14 cards and mindtwisting their whole hand away.

That never happens. This is much more realistic.

I can't decide if this post is sarcastic or not... I've certainly seen several Draw 7s resolve in tournament play with a Notion Thief out at this point.  (Thankfully, never against me.  I'd cry.)

[msg67183]

I'm sure you know whats even better for 3 mana when you have notion thief out... Drawing 14 cards and mindtwisting their whole hand away.

That never happens. This is much more realistic.

I can't decide if this post is sarcastic or not... I've certainly seen several Draw 7s resolve in tournament play with a Notion Thief out at this point.  (Thankfully, never against me.  I'd cry.)

And this is why Fisher is amazing. Lol

[kwis]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA.

[dangerlinto]

The more I think about it, the less I enjoy the name of this deck. There is both a Jareth AND a Goblin King as real Magic Cards and this does not include either of those cards. UNACCEPTABLE.

LOL!  Agreed!

[Grand Inquisitor]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA. Smile

Translation:
Conclusion<Premise
Premise

[Soly]

I can tell you as (arguably) one of the top doomsday players, I would imagine this is a ridiculously hard matchup.  Spirit of the Labarynth is a nightmare for DDay.   

As the RUG Delver aficionado, the stupid /4 scares me more than anything in this deck.

[Kirika]

Looks pretty interesting but I really didn't like the Workshop match up when I was playing blue white without a couple Steel Sabotage in the board as well as the Disenchants and Swords.

Devout Witness is great against workshop if it resolves and doesn't get killed or Revokered.  Is not easy to resolve between Lodestones, Spheres, and Wires.  Make sure to fetch a basic plains so can't get wastelanded out of using the activation.

Really do like Pithing Needle as a solution to Stoneforge Mystic as well as Bazaar among other things.   Disenchant is unreliable because of Batterskull able to bounce itself.

[Will]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA.

I don't know who gave it the nickname VA, Craig was calling it Blue Angels when he played it at the NYSE Open. As for one version being better, it's really not a cut and dry X > Y thing, both decks were products of their respective metagames. In a certain environment, having Trinket Mage and its toolbox is very good and in another Spirit of the Labyrinth, Snapcaster and more instants are better. The same goes with Jace TMS vs. Fact or Fiction or any of the other changes. I don't think that there is any deck in Vintage which is "a better deck" than another one without giving at least some consideration to the metagame which is expected.

[Samoht]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA.

I don't know who gave it the nickname VA, Craig was calling it Blue Angels when he played it at the NYSE Open. As for one version being better, it's really not a cut and dry X > Y thing, both decks were products of their respective metagames. In a certain environment, having Trinket Mage and its toolbox is very good and in another Spirit of the Labyrinth, Snapcaster and more instants are better. The same goes with Jace TMS vs. Fact or Fiction or any of the other changes. I don't think that there is any deck in Vintage which is "a better deck" than another one without giving at least some consideration to the metagame which is expected.

Astute observation Will. It's sad that it needs to be made but it is critical nonetheless. Understanding how and why decks are successful is so much more important than merely noting that they are.

[kwis]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA.

I don't know who gave it the nickname VA, Craig was calling it Blue Angels when he played it at the NYSE Open. As for one version being better, it's really not a cut and dry X > Y thing, both decks were products of their respective metagames. In a certain environment, having Trinket Mage and its toolbox is very good and in another Spirit of the Labyrinth, Snapcaster and more instants are better. The same goes with Jace TMS vs. Fact or Fiction or any of the other changes. I don't think that there is any deck in Vintage which is "a better deck" than another one without giving at least some consideration to the metagame which is expected.

Astute observation Will. It's sad that it needs to be made but it is critical nonetheless. Understanding how and why decks are successful is so much more important than merely noting that they are.

I understand that this deck is made, mainly with BUG/Abrupt Decay based creature lists in mind, and that is the reason why he chose to incorporate stuff like 3x StP etc. However, I think Jace is just a better endgame than 4x Fact, and that is based on that, that I called Blue Angels the better deck. In order to consider the different metagames, and how they prey on each other, jace is a house(!) against BUG lists, as they will struggle really hard to beat it, backed up by StP/SCM/Clique/Resto Angel. I honestly think with creatures being as dominant in today's vintage, as they are, StP main is needed. However, FaF is just embarrassing compared to Jace when the opponent plays stuff like flusterstorm.


Also, I didn't remember the name Blue Angels, but that is the correct name. I merely called in Vendillion Angels, in order to describe the deck for those familiar with it!

Lastly, I understand why my comment could sound absolute. That wasn't the point. I just cannot comprehend why people would play FaF over Jace. Both are really bad vs. shops, where-as the one shine in BUG M/U's and the other is insane vs other jace-lists. I do understand, however, the argument for playing your entire game in the opponents turns, and that FaF has a clear advantage to Jace there (... Being instant and all! ), but other than that, FaF is just a dig spell. (I also understand the premise it to be able to play SotL. That's just poor vs Bob, thou, barring that it trades with him.

[Will]

To be quite honest, I think that the UW Vendilion Angels from last year (Restoration angels in place of bomber men) is just a better deck.. However, I haven't tested this deck compared to UW VA.

I don't know who gave it the nickname VA, Craig was calling it Blue Angels when he played it at the NYSE Open. As for one version being better, it's really not a cut and dry X > Y thing, both decks were products of their respective metagames. In a certain environment, having Trinket Mage and its toolbox is very good and in another Spirit of the Labyrinth, Snapcaster and more instants are better. The same goes with Jace TMS vs. Fact or Fiction or any of the other changes. I don't think that there is any deck in Vintage which is "a better deck" than another one without giving at least some consideration to the metagame which is expected.

Astute observation Will. It's sad that it needs to be made but it is critical nonetheless. Understanding how and why decks are successful is so much more important than merely noting that they are.

I understand that this deck is made, mainly with BUG/Abrupt Decay based creature lists in mind, and that is the reason why he chose to incorporate stuff like 3x StP etc. However, I think Jace is just a better endgame than 4x Fact, and that is based on that, that I called Blue Angels the better deck. In order to consider the different metagames, and how they prey on each other, jace is a house(!) against BUG lists, as they will struggle really hard to beat it, backed up by StP/SCM/Clique/Resto Angel. I honestly think with creatures being as dominant in today's vintage, as they are, StP main is needed. However, FaF is just embarrassing compared to Jace when the opponent plays stuff like flusterstorm.


Also, I didn't remember the name Blue Angels, but that is the correct name. I merely called in Vendillion Angels, in order to describe the deck for those familiar with it!

Lastly, I understand why my comment could sound absolute. That wasn't the point. I just cannot comprehend why people would play FaF over Jace. Both are really bad vs. shops, where-as the one shine in BUG M/U's and the other is insane vs other jace-lists. I do understand, however, the argument for playing your entire game in the opponents turns, and that FaF has a clear advantage to Jace there (... Being instant and all! ), but other than that, FaF is just a dig spell. (I also understand the premise it to be able to play SotL. That's just poor vs Bob, thou, barring that it trades with him.

Have you played against BUG Fish with either iteration of Blue Angels, new or old? From what I gathered, this matchup was pretty much a can't lose matchup before Jace is factored in since almost every BUG list I've seen cannot answer Restoration Angel. You don't need Restoration Angel to protect your Jace, just having one in play is likely enough to do the trick. Flusterstorm is a real concern except when you realize that most BUG lists are playing 0-2 copies of the card and they have no real draw engine, so they are not likely to see it in multiples.

I think that you made my point for me. Jace is better against BUG Fish than Fact, but Fact is better against the field because it is an instant. With Fact instead of Jace you can choose to never tap out unless the coast is clear or you are baiting out a Counterspell. With Snapcaster Mages present, Fact gets out of hand, especially if you get to the true late game where you can Restoration Angel a Snapcaster to flashback Fact.

Bob is crushed by Restoration Angel. If you have 4 or more mana up and they swing in with Bob it is because they don't know you have Restoration Angel in your deck. Playing Fact can help you to bluff Resto because they can't tell what you are holding, thus keeping them from attacking into 4 untapped mana sources.

You seemingly are getting hung up on the BUG Fish match which from my talking to Craig is arguably the best matchup. The changes that were made were a product of our metagame because BUG Fish has fallen out of favor. Sure, the occasional player is on it now, but it has spent a lot of time in the sun and thus people have adjusted for it and hated it out. As a result, the deck was tweaked to be better against the rest of the field at the expense of a few percentage points in the now less relevant BUG Fish matchup.

[Samoht]

You're extolling the power of Jace, but in doing so forget that the Spirits really cut into his power level. FoF avoids the pitfall of having Spirit in play. Spirit was huge in the construction of this deck because of its important impact in any Drain match up.

[Chubby Rain]

I understand that this deck is made, mainly with BUG/Abrupt Decay based creature lists in mind, and that is the reason why he chose to incorporate stuff like 3x StP etc. However, I think Jace is just a better endgame than 4x Fact, and that is based on that, that I called Blue Angels the better deck. In order to consider the different metagames, and how they prey on each other, jace is a house(!) against BUG lists, as they will struggle really hard to beat it, backed up by StP/SCM/Clique/Resto Angel. I honestly think with creatures being as dominant in today's vintage, as they are, StP main is needed. However, FaF is just embarrassing compared to Jace when the opponent plays stuff like flusterstorm.


Also, I didn't remember the name Blue Angels, but that is the correct name. I merely called in Vendillion Angels, in order to describe the deck for those familiar with it!

Lastly, I understand why my comment could sound absolute. That wasn't the point. I just cannot comprehend why people would play FaF over Jace. Both are really bad vs. shops, where-as the one shine in BUG M/U's and the other is insane vs other jace-lists. I do understand, however, the argument for playing your entire game in the opponents turns, and that FaF has a clear advantage to Jace there (... Being instant and all! ), but other than that, FaF is just a dig spell. (I also understand the premise it to be able to play SotL. That's just poor vs Bob, thou, barring that it trades with him.

I agree Jace is a house against BUG fish lists and my game plan with UW Bomberman/Angels/Wizards was always to play a game of attrition until I could stick him. However, Restoration Angel is also quite good as Will and Tom have said, and Jace is weak against decks with Young Pyromancer, Merfolk, and some of the hate bear decks that have become more common. People are also more prepared for Jace with Revokers and Pithing Needles in the board. Another consideration is that Rich, Craig, Tom, etc. wanted to have an advantage against these UW control lists and played cards that were good against Jace (Spirit, Clique, Angel, Snapcaster) while not having to worry about protecting Jaces of there own (Kohler one-upped them by boarding in a Stoneforge package but that is besides the point).

Bob decks have also become less common because of the prevalence of Oath and Abrupt Decay in the NE.

[KanaKaishou]

So, Vasu here with my rendition of Dance Magic, which I took to 3rd/4th at the NYSE.

My list:

3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Spell Snare
2 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Disenchant
1 Brainstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mana Crypt

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Disenchant
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Council's Judgement
1 Moat
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte

---

Some comments on my changes. Stoneforge Mystic is simply a more powerful card than Spirit of the Labyrinth, in abstract. I also have a love affair with this card, but hey, everyone has their personal issues. However, it's more space intensive, and that's kind of where the extra lands were lost from the original list. I've talked about the equipment suite with many people, and I think everyone is in agreement about the first batterskull. I think there are several reasonable choices for the the second piece--Jitte, Fire and Ice, Feast and Famine, and Light and Shadow are the ones I've seriously considered. I think the right choice is Fire and Ice or Feast and Famine (and definitely *not* Batterskull #2). Basically, I want a castable piece of equipment which is good against critical mass style decks. When testing against Storm (or, for that matter, Oath), I had to sideboard out my Mystics if I didn't have Feast and Famine or Fire and Ice. With these cards, you cast it, get a sword, and are a Lotus away from cast+equip, immediately putting on pressure and gaining value in a way you aren't doing with Batterskull--and in other matchups, these are still easier to make happen than Batterskull when your Mystic dies.

Added in Jace--without our own Spirits making Jace very mediocre, adding a couple of Jaces was a very easy call--I diversified the 4 slot to make space. The way I'd describe Jace in this deck is a card which is awesome in the first couple of turns (where he simply takes over the game), good in the midgame, but not as good because you have to invest so much into resolving the card, and awesome late as a finisher once both players are basically out of resources (much better than FoF in this cases).

Swapped numbers on Snapcaster and Clique--I think Snapcaster is more versatile, and while it's less of a beatdown card, the deck isn't really a beatdown deck anyways.

+Library, 0 Cavern of Souls. Library gets added for the same reason we get Jace--we don't have the non-bo in our deck anymore. I've never understood the allure Cavern in these multi-type decks. Yes, it gets your one spell through, but most of the time, I'm perfectly happy to trade my end stepped Resto Angel for counterspells. It's just some random creature--I've got more where they came from.

Shifting of the counterspells--personal preference, as much as anything else. I can get behind many suites.

The big error in this edition's deck construction is the lack of a 24th land. I think the cut is a counterspell for this--I just got stuck on 3 sources way too often, and really wished I had another land. I think I'd cut a Spell Snare for the land, but I'd hear arguments about cutting Mindbreak Trap or a Swords to Plowshares as well. Jitte was very mediocre on the day (though, I lost a game in the quarters because I didn't value it highly enough. It was very awkward), but again--it's castable and equippable, where Batterskull mostly isn't. I definitely want Councils Judgement #2. That card is bonkers good.

I also think you need some sort of anti-Delver card(s) in the sideboard. I got blown out by Menendian in the Swiss in two games which weren't really games, but from a purely strategic perspective, it seems like I'm getting wrecked if I don't put Stoneforge into play and have it survive. My thought is something silly like Holy Light, but the right answer is likely more complicated than that.

Otherwise, the deck was awesome. Lost a tight one to Keith Seals to die where I punted game one away, he punted right back, and I got locked under a Revoker and Thorn in game 3 (and couldn't draw a swords effect+land).

[Smmenen]

I got blown out by Menendian in the Swiss in two games which weren't really games, but from a purely strategic perspective, it seems like I'm getting wrecked if I don't put Stoneforge into play and have it survive

Haha! Those were my favorite games on the weekend

[The Atog Lord]

Hey, Vasu! Congratulations on such a strong finish.

I'm really happy that you wrote this report. In both events in which I've played this deck, I was defeated by equipment. Once by Batterskull and once by Jitte. It is entirely possible that the optimal solution to equipment is to run our own. I'm certainly going to be testing Stoneforge Mystic in the deck. I do think that having a robust manabase is important to the deck doing well, but I also agree that if we want to run SFM, then sacrifices must be made. Keeping the Blue count high enough under those circumstances is a challenge.

[Montolio]

I also think you need some sort of anti-Delver card(s) in the sideboard. I got blown out by Menendian in the Swiss in two games which weren't really games, but from a purely strategic perspective, it seems like I'm getting wrecked if I don't put Stoneforge into play and have it survive. My thought is something silly like Holy Light, but the right answer is likely more complicated than that.

What about adding in a SOFI instead of the Feat or Famine. I don't think UR Delver can easily answer that card and it blows Delver's up all day long and when the board is clean will tidily draw you some cards.

[KanaKaishou]

I also think you need some sort of anti-Delver card(s) in the sideboard. I got blown out by Menendian in the Swiss in two games which weren't really games, but from a purely strategic perspective, it seems like I'm getting wrecked if I don't put Stoneforge into play and have it survive. My thought is something silly like Holy Light, but the right answer is likely more complicated than that.

What about adding in a SOFI instead of the Feat or Famine. I don't think UR Delver can easily answer that card and it blows Delver's up all day long and when the board is clean will tidily draw you some cards.

If I can resolve and activate Stoneforge Mystic, I've won because I've put Batterskull into play. Essentially the games where you have SFM aren't the problem, it's the ones where you don't. This is the one matchup where I regret not having  Cavern, since I get no uncounterable 3/4s.

I was thinking Propaganda in the board, actually, in place of the Moat and something else. It buys time, and makes Young Pyromancer absolutely embarassing. It also makes Gush a miserable play, since the Delver player gets locked into one attacker at best. All I'm looking to do is buy time for my 4s to win the game, and that's a job I think Propaganda does pretty well.

[DubDub]

You have more blue sources than white sources, but Ghostly Prison is probably better than Propaganda, since it can't be countered or destroyed by REB/Pyroblast.  Congrats on the finish!

[KanaKaishou]

I have a version of this built on MTGO (turned that walk+like 300 bucks into vintage), less the Black Lotus (which isn't really that key!).

Will battle any and all comers...

[MasamuneK]

What do you think about remora in this decks. I feel so sad that nobody is playing it, being my favorite card.
Must be hard to have enough mana to pay the upkeep plus angel but with 2 colors the mana is pretty stable.

Or if somebody has an idea for a remora deck for today's meta, it would be welcome. I don't know if the old style Gush with mindbreak trap style is still good

[The Atog Lord]

Believe me, I love Mystic Remora. But, this deck is primarily concerned with spending its mana on the opponent's turn rather than its own. That makes anything with Cumulative Upkeep less than ideal for what we are trying to do.

[MasamuneK]

I think so too but didnt know where to bring the question to "where are the remora?".
I love the card so much but cant find a shell for it

[hashswag]

I think so too but didnt know where to bring the question to "where are the remora?".
I love the card so much but cant find a shell for it

"Where are the remora?" would probably be a good thread, actually.

[Calvin240sx]

absolutely loved this report. was glad to have you out bro. was a pleasure.

cheers,
cal

[The Atog Lord]

Thanks, Calvin! It was a great event and I appreciate being able to be a part of it.

[serracollector]

Has anyone considered splashing green for the plethora of flash green creatures or noxious revival or blessing with its interaction with fact or fiction?