Dack Slaver

[Moduloc]

I was wondering some of the board states and match ups where slaver is used?  Is it ever good to tinker for it?

[Random Noob]

I was wondering some of the board states and match ups where slaver is used?  Is it ever good to tinker for it?

When Opponent has a Necro on Board for example, or if you can Snapcaster and Bolt their own Jace, force them to Anc you, Fetch and Tinker into nothing... kind of that.

[Moduloc]

[/quote]

When Opponent has a Necro on Board for example, or if you can Snapcaster and Bolt their own Jace, force them to Anc you, Fetch and Tinker into nothing... kind of that.
[/quote]
can you fail to find with a burning wish?

[Zeksagmak]

Oracle text says yes:

You may choose a sorcery card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Exile Burning Wish.

[portland]

You can usually waste any useful resources they have in hand and often reduce board presence too. Less useful slaving shops and dredge, but you can do stuff like remove ichorids, sac city of traitors, stack smokestack suboptimally, chalice for awkward numbers etc If they have a forgemaster out, amusement usually ensues.

If you have enough mana (for example off a drain or academy) to tinker and activate, you're laughing, especially if there is a welder involved. The last time I played control slaver, I got lucky against dredge and was able to back to back slaver them the turn before they had me dead and managed not just to remove all their ichorids, but actually dredge so deep I decked him.

[Kowal]

The vast majority of archetypes can still kill themselves fairly easily.  Some things like BUG Control maybe not so much, but you can still force them to do things like Abrupt Decay their men and waste their own lands and force their own spells.  That said, you win a lot of games by forcing the combo player to tutor for and cast his Necro, or make the control player Yawg Will and dig in to their deck to find ways to bone them.  I've killed Gush players by running them in to their own Fastbond for lethal and won the mirror by using my opponent's welder to weld back my Slaver for me.  I've beaten resolved Oath by making my opponent Oath up Griselbrand and pay their life, and blown out Dredge by means of dredging away the entire library and passing the turn back to myself.  The most enjoyable ones are when you slaver workshops and force them to use Forgemaster to wipe their board and find either Lotus which you use immediately, or let Smokestack eat their best stuff, or run their moxes in to chalice so you have something harmless to weld in for their threats.  It's almost always a game-winning play, and it breaks out of bad board states that typical Tinker targets can't resolve on their own.  It's also highly amusing to cast Gifts or FoF on your opponent's Mindslaver'd turn.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Mindslaver

My favorite: have them cast memory jar, put chain of vapor on stack and respond with jar, have them bounce everything and sac all lands, discard hand, leaving them with empty board/hand.

What are some of the common gifts piles for this deck?

The beauty/harrow of Gifts is that it has so many combinations and it's truly difficult to use it optimally.  Generally they can be grouped as:

Mana (either lands or acceleration)
Value (slow build stuff like Time Walk, Planeswalker, Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, etc)
Broken (game winning combos like TVKey or Yawgwill setups or just something that wins the game with your current hand)
Feed Welder (you can search for only 2 cards and send them directly to grave to enable welder)

[Kowal]

I forgot to address Gifts.  I generally try to just get broken junk to set up for a crushing Yawg Will.  Something like Tinker, Ancestral, Demonic Tutor, and whatever feels spicy at that moment is generally how I go.  When the best option for your opponent is to ship you Ancestral and whatever mystery slot #4 is (usually Time Walk for me), their options are horrible.  One important thing is never actually get Will with the Gifts; Gifts makes your deck really bad if it doesn't still have Yawg Will in it.  My feeling on the card is that if you're resolving it, we're already advanced in to the mid to late game and you already won the counterwar, so the coast is clear to just get broken stuff and win right now.  I don't think I've ever bothered with a mana or value gifts as GI identified them.

I've definitely gotten two robots before, which is obviously game winning with Welder and godawful without him.  Easy decision to make there. 

Likewise, I mentioned casting Gifts on a slaver turn above:  That's the simplest.  Just go get broken stuff, Lotus, and Yawg Will, and make your opponent give you Lotus and Yawg Will.  If you can't figure out how to make that win, you've got bigger problems than resolving good Gifts piles

[akatsuki]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and new to Vintage but I'm excited to become a part of this community. I played rich's list to a third place finish this weekend at the Tales of Adventure 2k and I'm planning on doing a write up for CFB.

Many thanks to all of my opponents who were gracious and gave me great side boarding advice. 

This format feels a lot harder to play perfectly than legacy, but can be a bit more forgiving if you draw well. #yawgWin4Life

[jamestosetti]

A couple weeks ago I decided to give slaverless slaver a try in this meta game. I just thought about the decks that are good, how they interact, and what would be good against them. After some testing I ended up with the list I am going to post. With some strategic thought against blue decks and Oath, this deck has performed really well. Mud has been difficult, but winnable. I changed some cards to incorporate more cards for the Workshop match, but I need to play some more games. I think this deck is what I would play in a tournament.

1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mana Drain
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dack Fayden
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Goblin Welder
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Tinker
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Force of Will
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Mental Misstep
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mana Crypt
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta


//Sideboard
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Vandalblast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Slaughter Games

Just to note, I have edited this deck. -1 Jace, -1 Welder, + 1 Dack, +1 Sol Ring. The S/B has been changed as well. -2 Pyroblast, -1 Ingot Chewer, +2 Vandalblast, + 1 Slaughter Games.

[VibeBox]

this thread organization system, and vintage deck names in general are really annoying, so i guess this is the closest to appropriate thread for this
dack is real real powerful and i'm still loving this deck, even though it doesn't get to play 5 ancestrals anymore


Dack City Vault

3 Dack Fayden
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Goblin Welder

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
3 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall


1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Treasure Cruise
3 Dig Through Time
4 Thoughtcast

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolarian Academy

SB
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Wasteland
2 Pyroblast
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Engineered Plague
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

dack + delve is simply a safer, more control oriented way to see tons of cards than draw sevens, and makes the deck much better against workshops. between that and thoughcast it's so easy to get up on card over the opponent i dont see any reason to let them see 7. seriously feels great every time seeing opponent cast preordain when i just get to draw 2 outright, especially in conjunction with dack who loves raw number of cards for filtering.
i've stripped away pretty much everything that isn't counters, mana, or draw/tutor. pretty narrowly focused on just untapping a time vault as priorities 1,2,3, and 5
engineered plague is (im hoping) a good flexible tool against both delver if it sticks around and mentor if it becomes the dominant creature deck, while mainting value in other matchups

i'm currently pondering mox pearl vs a fourth DTT
also what robot to run. i'm expecting more StP with the rise of mentor decks, which means the sphinx i loved up until now is likely useless.

[mmcgeach]

also what robot to run. i'm expecting more StP with the rise of mentor decks, which means the sphinx i loved up until now is likely useless.

Eh, don't you run enough counters to protect it?  IMO that's a reasonable line of thinking.  Don't go for it (and expect it to win) w/o a misstep or misdirection.

[mueller]

3x Dack deserves at least one Notion Thief, if not two.

[diopter]

Looks like you're trying to go for the Steel City Vault victory path, especially with that manabase.

The whole reason to play that deck was to play explosive 3 mana bombs on turn 2 to set up KeyVault + protection on turn 3. The modern TPS in terms of power/speed/consistency balance.

The Delve spells seem out of place in this strategy. I understand they give you long game power but your deck's mana base will hinder this objective.

At least run 4 Dack if you want to go down this path. Also, Notion Thief seems horrible in this strategy. It's much better suited to true Control Slaver (and even then there's a strong cuteness factor; this 4 mana creature does to one mana Bolts, Swords and Blasts).

As far as Sphinx: I've experimented with options like Inkwell or Batterskull and they are horrid. Sphinx is still the best option - Sword is counterable and also utter crap against the rest of your deck. If you want a really insane Sphinx plan, double down and run 2 welder 2 Sphinx (along with that 4 Dack package). A mix of Missteps (for cages and Swords; cage can also be stolen or welded) and Bolts (for Priests and buying time against Mentor) is great protection.

[Katzby]

Quote from: Moduloc on July 24, 2014, 12:34:48 PM
I was wondering some of the board states and match ups where slaver is used?  Is it ever good to tinker for it?

When Opponent has a Necro on Board for example, or if you can Snapcaster and Bolt their own Jace, force them to Anc you, Fetch and Tinker into nothing... kind of that.

You can't actually make your opponent bolt his own Planeswalker even when controlling his turn.


Katzby

[VibeBox]

Eh, don't you run enough counters to protect it?  IMO that's a reasonable line of thinking.  Don't go for it (and expect it to win) w/o a misstep or misdirection.

i think it's reasonable to conclude there's simply enough counters to protect it, however i am definitely questioning the need for a maindeck robot at all. it seems to me it's just always faster and safer to just focus on k/v. i also like to reserve the counters to either ensure my own spells resolving or stopping opponent's critical spells, not getting in a fight over a permanent.
also,

Sword is counterable and also utter crap against the rest of your deck.

because of this, i think it's likely to see more than one stuck in their hand, so even if i have the misstep i might lose it.
i've just been disappointed one too many times by feeling like i've wasted my resolved tinker after something unexpected goes wrong with sphinx. it's much harder for something to go wrong when you have all the turns. i'm real happy just relying tezzeret as my finisher in the main

3x Dack deserves at least one Notion Thief, if not two.

Notion Thief seems horrible in this strategy. It's much better suited to true Control Slaver (and even then there's a strong cuteness factor; this 4 mana creature does to one mana Bolts, Swords and Blasts).

i agree with this. i have a strong aversion to notion thief. it's exactly the kind of durdley card i'm trying to avoid imo. it turns currently dead cards into live ones for opponent who have bolts/fireice/path ect

Looks like you're trying to go for the Steel City Vault victory path, especially with that manabase.

The whole reason to play that deck was to play explosive 3 mana bombs on turn 2 to set up KeyVault + protection on turn 3. The modern TPS in terms of power/speed/consistency balance.

yeah, it's based on the SCV framework (thus the name dack city vault, or cruise city vault when it had 5 acalls) for me though, the draw of SCV is the thoughtcasts and speed of setup, not the ability to race toward a win.
i really don't like the reliance on draw sevens though. those "three mana bombs" comes with serious drawbacks imo, and i'd much rather run the deck in a more control based stance than combo. i am basically looking to play a hard reactionarry/control role until the moment i can resolve tinker/tezz/tutor for vault and win on the spot, whether that comes on turn 1 or turn 6

The Delve spells seem out of place in this strategy. I understand they give you long game power but your deck's mana base will hinder this objective.

i don't see how. it has been annoying having to switch to DTT's double blue requirements instead of maxing out on "u:draw 3", but between dack and all the "real" mana this deck can dump on field it's fairly easy to  fire off delve spells pretty early, and sometimes 2 at once even

At least run 4 Dack if you want to go down this path.  

 If you want a really insane Sphinx plan, double down and run 2 welder 2 Sphinx (along with that 4 Dack package). A mix of Missteps (for cages and Swords; cage can also be stolen or welded) and Bolts (for Priests and buying time against Mentor) is great protection.

discarding and welding sphinx was about the best use of it i had while it was maindecked, and in a different build of this i would absolutely recommend this approach.
the only reason i don't pursue it (aside from souring on md robot in general) is lack of space. having this robust a counter suite comes with hard cuts, and it means there just isn't room for things like bolts, extra welders ect
i think you may be right though that at least dack #4 deserves consideration along with DTT#4 for the spot that's currently mox pearl

[Minkar]

You can't actually make your opponent bolt his own Planeswalker even when controlling his turn.


Katzby

Can you explain this? I'm looking at the rulings for Mindslaver and cant see why you wouldnt be able to do that. If a player can Bolt their own permanent out of their own volition, why cant I do it to them if i use Mindslaver?

:: hmm, it seems that only opponents can redirect the damage to planeswalkers. interesting

[VibeBox]

:: hmm, it seems that only opponents can redirect the damage to planeswalkers. interesting

it's almost as if they're abominations, never meant to exist with some awkward rules staple gunned in regardless of how they had to shoehorn it in with little though to balance or game impact  : -/

[Undomian]

I've been looking for a way to transition the Control Slaver strategy I usually pilot in this format to something with 4 copies of Gifts Ungiven, and I ended up piloting the following list to a split in the finals of a smallish (11 people) tournament earlier today.

2 Goblin Welder
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
3 Dack Fayden
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tinker
1 Recoup
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard
1 Slice and Dice
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Ingot Chewer

Matchups were as follows:
Shops: 2-1
Mono-red Storm (AKA the bye): 2-1 (I'll admit that he caught me off guard in game 1 when I had tapped out for Dack with a hand of Gifts and Time vault when he stormed for 9 and cast Ignite Memories on me...)
Shops: 0-2
Cobra Gifts: 2-0
Oath: 2-0
Oath: 2-1
Shops: Split

I was pretty happy with the deck overall. I'd like to maybe have a Pyroblast back in the maindeck as well as something like Hurkyl's Recall or Misdirection to help out in the BUG matchups where Abrupt Decay can put a serious damper on my combo turn. Misdirection is probably the right call to move in, though I'm not really sure to cut for it. I also think Snapcaster Mage definitely needs to be in the deck, as sometimes having only Recoup for that effect can be very limiting.

The manabase also needs a bit of work, as I don't actually own any copies of Scalding Tarn. If I end up playing something like this again, I'd probably make the following changes:

MD:
-2 Misty Rainforest
-2 Polluted Delta
-2 ???
+4 Scalding Tarn
+1 Misdirection
+1 Snapcaster Mage

SB:
-1 Misdirection
+1 Mountain
Other changes dependent on metagame.

The metagame where I play has a ton of Oath players and very few Dredge players, so my sideboard choices reflect that. It might be possible that the supplementary countermagic in my board is unnecessary, but I really like the flexibility that it gives to Gifts.

I am still a relatively unexperienced Vintage player, so any comments on the list or suggestions for changes would be greatly appreciated.