"Simians Mom" aka RW Death and Taxes

[Guli]

The thing about Recruiter is that when I Recruiter against Oath and they still don't have an Oath out, that means that if they play Oath on their turn, it is too late(because as fast as they are, they also need another turn)! So you swing with your Thalia and what not and then Recruiter for the hexproof (or Flamespeaker if the match up allows it).

[Samoht]

Cannonist is certainly interesting and worth testing more. My main concern would be come mid/late game, when revealing multiple cards off flamespeaker and wanting to cast more then 1 of them and cannonist is in play would get pretty annoying I would imagine. Maybe it's not a big deal since I hadn't put extensive testing into the card

The main reason this is a concern is because I have won many games vs non toxic deluge decks by just swarming out the board due to flamespeaker keeping me going.

Cannonist may just be a meta game call really. A deck like this is so extremely customizable

If you're at a point where you are connecting with Flamespeaker and have Canonist out, how rough is only netting the +1 instead of the +2?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I mean it might not be super relevant but I'm sure it would come up where ideally I cast both spells off flamespeaker and not being able to would suck...or what if in that same scenario they counter the first spell I play off flamespeaker, then I wouldn't even be able to play a 2nd bear after baiting out a counter? That would also suck

[xouman]

Well, 29 cards in the original deck are artifacts or lands (and playing canonist, maybe even more). There is a good chance to hit at least one of them, thus making both cards playable. While it still has a bit of risk, canonist would be good most of the time against some decks.

[Twiedel]

If you're at a point where you are connecting with Flamespeaker and have Canonist out, how rough is only netting the +1 instead of the +2?

That is my thinking exactly. If I can look my opponent down from playing more than one spell and additionally not drawing cards or not targeting me, etc. I think I am in a winning position already. And by the way, I wouldn't suggest running the full set of canonist, just 2-3 between Maindeck and Sideboard. I just think it adds a huge threat to anything that's playing Dark Ritual or Gush.

Finally had the opportunity to play an Oath deck online today... man, he really stood no chance. I had some veryg ood openers, but nearly 50% of my business means: no oathing for you! I could even beat the first turn orchard + mox + oath easily with Grafdigger's Cage into Aegis. (Granted, first turn Orchard, Mox, Oath + Counter backup is nearly unbeatable, what what deck wins against that ^^)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks for the input Mark! I'll have to test that out!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I top 8d with today at TDG with an unfortunate top 8 loss...

SIMIANS MOM!!!

4 Mother of Runes
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Keldon Megoliths
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile

2-1 Win vs Mike Savage on Bug Tezz
2-1 Win vs Tom Dixon on Dredge
1-2 Loss vs Martello in a close 3rd game
2-1 Win vs Bug Gush combo (oath sideboard)
2-0 Win vs Lee on Tera Nova

4-1 and onto the top 8

0-2 Loss vs Tocco on Oath. This match as disappointing as I tested extensively vs oath and do in fact have good percentage vs then.

Game 1 I have mom, spirit, containment priest, revoker, lands. I keep and draw into another mom and flamespeaker...all of my threats resolve except priest which pulls a force (no cavern for me). He oaths into a Griselbrand that can't draw. I get 6 triggers from flamespeaker and don't find swords.

Game 2 I have 2 Priest 1 Revoker  1 cage and cavern and lands. Both priests get decayed, I draw a 2nd cage. First cage gets forced, 2nd cage resolves. At this point I'm holding revoker, path, and swords. My opponent has 4 Mana out and 3 cards in hand...he casts Emerald, Lotus, then Griselbrand (tells me later he top decked Lotus...of course). He passes turn. I cast revoker, he responds with a draw putting him at 11, I respond with swords, he responds with a draw putting him at 4. I respond with Path. Griselbrand gets removed and he draws 14. Revoker now resolves and I name time vault. He casts 3rd decay killing revoker and casts time vault and key. I lose...in testing the list was very good vs oath so this was a sad loss.

 I love the new list...priest and lavamancers were great on the day. I activated megoliths for value a bunch of times. The Megoliths and Sudden shocks are here to fight delver. I have had insane results testing vs delver as well! This list feels better then the previous for sure. Top 8 was good for $50. I played this deck twice at events both resulting in top 8s!!!
 

[msg67183]

I top 8d with today at TDG with an unfortunate top 8 loss...

SIMIANS MOM!!!

4 Mother of Runes
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Keldon Megoliths
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Path to Exile

2-1 Win vs Mike Savage on Bug Tezz
2-1 Win vs Tom Dixon on Dredge
1-2 Loss vs Martello in a close 3rd game
2-1 Win vs Bug Gush combo (oath sideboard)
2-0 Win vs Lee on Tera Nova

4-1 and onto the top 8

0-2 Loss vs Tocco on Oath. This match as disappointing as I tested extensively vs oath and do in fact have good percentage vs then.

Game 1 I have mom, spirit, containment priest, revoker, lands. I keep and draw into another mom and flamespeaker...all of my threats resolve except priest which pulls a force (no cavern for me). He oaths into a Griselbrand that can't draw. I get 6 triggers from flamespeaker and don't find swords.

Game 2 I have 2 Priest 1 Revoker  1 cage and cavern and lands. Both priests get decayed, I draw a 2nd cage. First cage gets forced, 2nd cage resolves. At this point I'm holding revoker, path, and swords. My opponent has 4 Mana out and 3 cards in hand...he casts Emerald, Lotus, then Griselbrand (tells me later he top decked Lotus...of course). He passes turn. I cast revoker, he responds with a draw putting him at 11, I respond with swords, he responds with a draw putting him at 4. I respond with Path. Griselbrand gets removed and he draws 14. Revoker now resolves and I name time vault. He casts 3rd decay killing revoker and casts time vault and key. I lose...in testing the list was very good vs oath so this was a sad loss.

 I love the new list...priest and lavamancers were great on the day. I activated megoliths for value a bunch of times. The Megoliths and Sudden shocks are here to fight delver. I have had insane results testing vs delver as well! This list feels better then the previous for sure. Top 8 was good for $50. I played this deck twice at events both resulting in top 8s!!!
 

Great Job Josh! Glad to see you pull off the Simian's Mom list after my shit performance at Champs!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thanks I put alot of work into the deck testing and tuning! I really enjoy playing this deck haha

[merfolkOTPT]

I came up with a list that is really similar to what you have been running (although I looked at this thread nearer its inception and bought flamespeakers as a result, so maybe this just seeped into my consciousness).  I was wondering what you thought about the shops matchup in general?  I really like sudden shock, but it seems like a downgrade in that matchup in particular.

How has your testing against shops looked?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Sudden shock is 100% a metagame call. I expected alot of delver and fish. Interesting enough the room was filled with delver and I didn't play vs it haha. Game 1 against shops can be tough if you don't get the right hand. But in testing I was still winning a fair amount of game 1s. So that's why I went with sudden shocks. Sudden shock plus a first striker can be a surprise vs a golem or any other blocker in game 1s. But like I said game 1s can be tricky but after sideboard it's hard to lose. So I was willing to take that gamble. My 1 loss vs shops in the Swiss wasn't a good example of the matchup as game 2 I got unlucky to not finish him off when he was at 3 life. He gave me so many turns to draw a land but my deck hated me. Then in game 3 I had a good hand but he had an insane hand  including double shops and too many threats after I answered the first couple he said he got some lucky top decks...I felt like any deck would have lost to my opponents game 3 hand.

If the delver scene dies down (which I don't think it will) I will make some changes based on the meta. That's why I love this deck. It's so customizable based on what the meta looks like. I will say in testing, the delver matchup is almost a bye lol...

PS ~ I wrote a slightly more in depth report in the reports thread ; -)

[vaughnbros]

I love the additions of sudden shock and keldon megoliths.  Containment priest also looks like a big upgrade from Aegis.  Keep up the good work Josh!

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I love the additions of sudden shock and keldon megoliths.  Containment priest also looks like a big upgrade from Aegis.  Keep up the good work Josh!

Thanks Lance...those cards put delver to sleep lol. Containment Priest is an insane upgrade! Thanks again!!!

[merfolkOTPT]

So I really like where you guys have gone with this list and I have been testing a version of it lately to pretty good results.  Here is my version:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
4 Simian Spirit Guide

3 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Hammer Mage
1 Devout Witness

A couple of the changes i made were to cut LRW just because i found it harder to cast with the cavern mana base.  I have more shops in my meta and lightning bolt has been more important than the uncounterable nature of sudden shock.  Finally, stoneforge and jitte especially have been absurd in my testing.

[xouman]

If shops are heavy in your meta, taking LRW makes little sense. I undestand it's hard to play with caverns (depending on what are you naming), but it's a card that can perform two very important roles: mana denial (taking moxes and friends) and mud treats. Besides, it can take time vaults, tinker robots, batterskulls... it's a very important card imho, so the approach should be adapting the manabase for it, not removing it because of the manabase.

I'm not sure, but I'd say Josh's list is a bit more powerful. Yes, I miss revokers too.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Cavern and Relic-Warder hadn't been a big problem in my latest list. Cavern on cleric or human covered most of my dudes...also dack fayden stealing Batterskull/Jitte is a thing too. The deck is heavily meta dependent on choices you make to be honest. With mentor coming out soon I dont think I'd be cutting sudden shock either as my opponent can't respond and take mentor out of kill range...I couldn't see dropping below 3 relic warder to be honest. And I'd certainly miss revoker too. I haven't missed sfm package at all. Good luck with the deck!

[merfolkOTPT]

I found that I was doing a better job at denying mana with hammer mage than I could with LRW.  Like I said I found that guy hard to cast except in the matches where he didn't do a whole lot.

There are also very few time vault decks in my meta, and I feel like the impact of LRW in those match-ups is lessened when you don't have vial.

As for what happens once Mentor is printed I might consider changing to sudden shock, but I want to see a specific list first that I am trying to fight against first.

As for LRW being good against shops, yes if you name cleric your cavern can cast him, but you will notice that my list runs fewer clerics, and I have found that if i am naming anything besides human it is spirit.  Also, he is (basically) always turn 2 or later against shops, and sometimes that is too slow, I have found that having a hate piece i can play on turn 1 with any acceleration (hammer mage) is better than waiting on LRW.

I agree with this:

The deck is heavily meta dependent on choices you make to be honest.

whole-heartedly.  My feeling is that my version is good against martello shops, random blue good stuff, and URx Delver in my testing thus far.  It is not as good against prison shops.  I feel like for a hate deck in my meta that is where I want to be.

[tito del monte]

Hammer Mage is an interesting catch - I'd never seen him before. Otherwise, as you're running SSG and Caverns, you could always give Manic Vandal a try as he's a human. Maybe something nice to recur to if Alesha maybe finds a spot in this deck, too.

Super interesting deck. I'm sure to give it a run out soon... just need to get some of those annoyingly pricey Containment Priests.

[vaughnbros]

I agree with the relic warder and revoker cuts given that you are replacing them with other artifact/moxen hate.  Cavern is also a big reason this deck is relevant.  You can't "just rework the manabase".

I'm not a big fan of hammer mage.  He's extremely mana intensive to destroy most relevant permanents and also requires you pitching a card.  He also blows up your own stuff.  Viashino Heretic and gorilla shaman both seem better in almost every situation.

[Twaun007]

I'm not a big fan of hammer mage.  He's extremely mana intensive to destroy most relevant permanents and also requires you pitching a card.  He also blows up your own stuff.  Viashino Heretic and gorilla shaman both seem better in almost every situation.

Gorilla Shaman is super mana intensive if you want to eat anything bigger than a mox. He also cannot eat creatures unlike MC Hammer Mage or manlands which is very important in the Terranova match.  

He's also cheaper when it comes to comparing mana expenditure with Viashino Heretic in the long run and the singleton card loss can be compensated by the X for 1 factor he brings to the table.

He's not as bad as people think.
 
  

[vaughnbros]

Gorilla Shaman is super mana intensive if you want to eat anything bigger than a mox. He also cannot eat creatures unlike MC Hammer Mage or manlands which is very important in the Terranova match.    

Blowing up man lands is nice, but I'm always going to want Heretic over Hammer Mage in the shops match up.  Heretic's 3 toughness allows it to block man lands, while he blows up anything relevant they have AND puts them on a clock.  

Gorilla Shaman at 1 mana is usually going to be much easier to cast especially against shops, and can have immediate board impact if you have access to additional mana.

He's also cheaper when it comes to comparing mana expenditure with Viashino Heretic in the long run and the singleton card loss can be compensated by the X for 1 factor he brings to the table.

I think you are kind of missing the point.  Hammer Mage is never a X for 1.  Hes a X for 2+.  His first activation has to blow up at least 3 more artifacts of your opponents for you to gain any card advantage off him.  That's a lot of artifacts and its really only ever going to happen against shops.  After clearing the board, every time my opponent plays an artifact I have to pitch another card and pay mana to remove it.  I can never get ahead.  This is compared to Heretic and Gorilla Shaman that are always X for 1's.  You are never forced to invest additional cards into them.

He's not as bad as people think.

Its not that hammer mage is necessarily a bad card, its just that Heretic and Gorilla shaman are really really good cards at doing the same thing, blowing up artifacts.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Finished in the top 4 with this list today at TDG in NJ!!!

3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Shock
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Containment Priest
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Plateau
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Keldon Megoliths
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

SIDEBOARD
4 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Umezawas Jitte
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Shattering Spree
1 Wasteland
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Rd 1 - 2-0 win vs Alex on Martello Shops
Rd 2 - 2-0 win vs Nick DiJohn on Martello Shops
Rd 3 - 2-1 win vs Michael Savage on Dack Bomberman
Rd4 ID
Rd 5 - 1-2 loss vs Joel on Mentor (played for seating for t8)
T8 - 2-0 win vs Sean on Pyromancer Big Blue
T4 - 0-2 loss vs ??? on Mentor

The top 4 match was pretty unfortunate. I mulliganed game 1 and he opened on library and took over handily. And then in game 2 he had turn 1 Jace to sculpt his hand and I never come back...

I love this deck and can honestly say it is the best performing deck I've played in a long time. I have t8/4 three out of the four times ever running it

[Chubby Rain]

Congrats, Josh! I'm glad to see this deck performing so well.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Congrats, Josh! I'm glad to see this deck performing so well.

Thanks Matt...it's a super enjoyable deck. This coming from a blue control pilot at heart. This is a control deck of sorts but it does so with bears

[Guli]

I am sure if people would pick up these control decks with 'bears' (which are permanents with a control/disruption aspect), the top 8 appearance will go up. And yea, Josh, this is humanish Looks a lot like that tempo version that I just posted in the human ingenuity thread.

What I don't like is to be in topdeck mode, and for me Sensei's Top + Shuffle effects is a must these days.

With wastes, fetches you could run 2/3 tops yourself. You could also play a Recruiter instead of 1 Flamespeaker (which can be recruited anyway).

Congrats with the top4!

[desolutionist]

Hey Josh, I just ran your most recent list last night in a MTGO tournament.

1.  I didn't have Black Lotus, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Wastelands, or Containment Priests.  I substituted in basic lands, Ghost Quarters, and Aegis of the Gods.

2.  I went undefeated into the final round (easily dismantled two Blue decks and a Shop deck)  The 2nd Shop deck I played, in the finals, I could have beaten but I made a mistake by tapping my Strip Mine to his Tangle Wire; I could have tapped a Plains instead and I would have won the match.  The situation was that he had two Crucibles and a Mishra's Factory and I wanted to have enough mana so I could cast 2 Leonin Relic Warder.  I miscounted or something because by the time I dealt with both Crucibles, I still had an untapped Plains with nothing left to cast.  Could have been Strip to his Mishra's Factory and then he really would have been put out of the game.  (He topdecked a Wasteland for my Strip that was now tapped)

3.  So I ended up 3-1 with probably the cheapest deck ever to do so. ($141)  This speaks volumes about the overall strategy since the deck could only get better with Containment Priest, Moxes, Lotus, and Wastelands.  Even without those cards, I felt I was in every single game.  Though, I did sideboard some Null Rods and they were truly one sided in my list.

[Guli]

I am very interested in the Mother of Runes package. I run them in Legacy, but in Vintage, I just can't risk it. Maybe discuss MOR a little? How often is the card irrelevant or too slow? Is it better than Mental Misstep? (Since both are dead against Workshop)

I definately can see the advantage of turn 1 Mother into turn 2 Thalia/Teeg/Spirit. At worst it will make them use their turn and removal on MoR. But is this enough reason to run the card..

Cheers

[msg67183]

I am very interested in the Mother of Runes package. I run them in Legacy, but in Vintage, I just can't risk it. Maybe discuss MOR a little? How often is the card irrelevant or too slow? Is it better than Mental Misstep? (Since both are dead against Workshop)

I definately can see the advantage of turn 1 Mother into turn 2 Thalia/Teeg/Spirit. At worst it will make them use their turn and removal on MoR. But is this enough reason to run the card..

Cheers

A lot of Workshop decks have been running Dismember, in this case Mother certainly is not dead against them. Also a marginal card, Porcelain Legionaire is White..

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Mom comes out vs workshops all day long. But in regards to is she worth it? Oh my god she is worth it. Protecting my best bear at all times, forcing spot removal out of my opponents hand immediately on mom, and allowing flamespeaker to attack over the top of anything to +2 cards every turn is a thing. Mom is one of the best cards in the deck and I whole heartedly feel this way...

Shawn, that's awesome. The deck is so hard for people to deal with. I love it...glad to see you putting up results with such a cheap deck!

[desolutionist]

I've made some upgrades.  Obtained a Wasteland, 2x Containment Priest, Ruby, Pearl.  It's obviously better now.  The deck is great except there isn't so much Oath on MTGO, so I've been trying to discover another 2 drop that is just solid in the Gush and Shop matchups.  Thinking of possibly 2x Goblin Legionnaire 2x 4x Containment Priest*.  Any ideas for RW creatures that can be dominant in the land of Mishra's Factories and Prowess triggers? Precinct Captain?