TheManaDrain.com
September 23, 2019, 05:09:31 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Days of Vintage Past: The Return of Control Slaver  (Read 6865 times)
Zherbus
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2406


FatherHell
View Profile WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2014, 01:50:54 pm »

I could be mistaken or off base, but I think that Kowal's opinion is based off the Vintage Online metagame as well as his experience from years past. Just looking at Morphling.de, Kowal's last Top8 IRL was in 2009, at which time cards such as Lodestone Golem, Phyrexian Revoker, Dismember, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Dismember and Phyrexian Metamorph all had not yet been printed. These cards have helped to shape and advance the Workshop pillar dramatically, in ways which have not yet been adopted on Magic Online.

Well: He was at NYSE and won a Bazaar... with MUD:



Also, I guess I'm not really following this:

Quote
For instance, a lot of the Workshop lists which I saw doing well on Magic Online were not playing Phyrexian Revoker at all.



Note: They only report 1/3 of the daily events per day and a lot of what gets played online is in 2-mans and 8-mans. I wish we could get better reporting, but that's a different topic.

It's also noteworthy that the deck can draw through itself on the most part for 2-mana. It's not weigh'd down by Gifts, Fact, excess Jace's, or Tezzeret. It's top engine curve tops out at a TFK and a Jace. Tinker costs 3, and of course hardcasting the big artifacts costs more. LoA stands in the way of none of those. The deck runs generally pretty smooth on minimal mana and the 'slaver cards' are there as an avenue to victory, not the vehicle.

When you open your seven on the draw, you generally want to feel like you're going to be able to survive. You want Mental Misstep to stop Ancestral, you want FoW for Tinker, you just plain don't want to be blown out. When you're on the draw and you dodge getting Vintage'd, then you're now at a lesser position than your opponent because they already have Spell Snare mana up or a threat out. LoA gives that dynamic some punch and it's not at a price that the deck can't afford to pay.

To be honest, I cut LoA from a lot of decks as well. This deck handles it nicely. I don't think anyone has any sort of personal investment in whether you cut cards that have been working for us if you tried the list. People should play whatever their comfortable with.  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 01:59:31 pm by Zherbus » Logged

Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com

Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2014, 02:42:28 pm »

For me, Library of Alexandria has been performing extremely well. Is it a bit like a leyline? Absolutely, but it isn't quite so narrow. When you find yourself in draw-go mode at five cards, you can oftentimes maneuver the game to the point where you have seven cards in hand again. The inclusion of Library in Control Slaver has always been contentious; I remember having disagreements with Brian DeMars regarding Library in Control Slaver years ago.

That said, while I have been happy with Library, if you would rather run the Basic Mountain in the maindeck instead, I won't say that is wrong at all. You do get a lot of value out of that Basic Mountain, and I see the arguments in favor of running that Mountain. For me, the extra value of Library in the Blue matchups has been worth the slot, but I can understand if someone is more concerned with having his Red sources removed via Wasteland.

On the matter of Mana Drain. Portland had some excellent points. I won't call running more copies of Mana Drain incorrect at all. In fact, I am a bit uncomfortable having only one, and would prefer a second copy. I just don't want to cut anything to make the space for it. The second Fire/Ice or the Merchant Scroll could easily become Mana Drain without a real problem.

Earlier in this thread, I talked about Control Slaver being a deck that can be adjusted based on a metagame. I'll reiterate that point here. Mana Drain is better in some matchups than others. Library is better in some matchups than others. Depending on what decks you expect to face, and indeed on how you like to play the deck, some choices may work out better than others. What's working for me, with my expected metagame and my style of play, may not be optimal for you, what decks you will face, and how you play the deck.
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
Kerz
Nobody wants to play with me!
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 603


Kerzkid14
View Profile WWW
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2014, 03:33:06 pm »

Wow. What year is it? Kowal? Zee-Herbus? Good lawd.

BTW I'm alive, hi.
Logged

Team Hadley: FOR FUCKING LIFE
Razor
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 56

raymitchell401@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2014, 07:22:58 pm »

Razor checking in for the first time in eons.  

Great read, gentlemen!

I agree with Kowal:  LoA>Mountain

However, I too see value in running a basic mountain.  In my Grixis decks I usually run one Mountain in the SB to bring in versus Shops to help keep my SB artifact hate cards online versus Waste-lock.  Many of Grixis' best artifact hate cards are red: Ingot Chewer, Vandalblast and Viashino Heretic.

Oh, and regarding Sorcery speed draw Night's Whisper, I'm wondering if Strategic Planning isn't just better. Both cost 2 mana.  Night's Whisper costs an added 2 life but gives an extra card.  However, since it isn't U, it isn't pitchable to either FoW or MisD.  Strategic Planning lets you look at your top 3 cards, keep 1 and bury the other 2 - Welder-enabling.  However, since it is U, it is pitchable to both FoW or MisD.

I recall someone using crazy tech of Courier's Capsule and Ichor Wellspring, too. Baleful Strix is probably better.  Weldable draw.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 09:36:08 pm by Razor » Logged

Green is busted.
tribet
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 609



View Profile Email
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2014, 05:15:16 am »

Oh, and regarding Sorcery speed draw Night's Whisper, I'm wondering if Strategic Planning isn't just better. Both cost 2 mana.  Night's Whisper costs an added 2 life but gives an extra card.  However, since it isn't U, it isn't pitchable to either FoW or MisD.  Strategic Planning lets you look at your top 3 cards, keep 1 and bury the other 2 - Welder-enabling.

It is also worth noting that Strategic Planning dodges new printings such as Spirit of the Labyrinth! I quite like how people start dusting off their old cards.  Wink
Logged
Kowal
My name is not Brian.
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 2497


Reanimate your feet!


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2014, 09:53:56 am »

If all I've done is create a deck that Rich Shay and Zherbus netdeck, and brought Kerz and Razor back from the dead, I'll consider my mission here to be accomplished.  GG gentlemen.

As to the build of the deck, I like basic mountain as an option out of the board but I hate it in the maindeck.  The list is very color-hungry, particularly in early turns, and unless red is dropping bombs (and again, Welder is no bomb) that mountain in your opening hand is probably a game loser.  If nothing else, it certainly stinks up the vast majority of hands you draw forcing you to have a lot of other juicy stuff to make it playable.

Night's Whisper is pretty much the entire reason the deck runs, so I'd be loathe to cut it for another draw engine.  While there's some value in exploring the blue-based draw engines, none of them are particularly synergistic with the deck (and the ones that are, are underpowered to the point of that synergy being more cute than effective...)  It can't be overstated how important it is to get two cards right now with Whisper, and it's the reason I favor it over other comparable draw spells including the ubiquitous Dark Confidant.  For what it's worth, pitching to Force has only been an issue for me very rarely given the spells that are high cc and dead in the early game like FoF and Gifts are blue, and I've got no problem getting rid of Dack.  These cards tend to sit in my hand until they're winners, or until I need Force fodder anyway.  The high concentration of artifact mana also lends itself well to just hardcasting the stupid thing, which is pleasant.
Logged
Zherbus
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2406


FatherHell
View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2014, 02:30:14 pm »

It is also worth noting that Strategic Planning dodges new printings such as Spirit of the Labyrinth! I quite like how people start dusting off their old cards.  Wink

As does other draw engines consisting of Dark Confidant. Spirit of the Bowie is generally only a fickle whore to Gush decks and storm decks. In this deck, the random cutesy hatebear dies to, in Rich's and my build, Fire/Ice's maindeck, Pyroclasm/Deluge, bolt sideboard. In Kowals, he has the Massacre card.

Also, hey Kerz and Razor!
Logged

Founder, Admin of TheManaDrain.com

Team Meandeck: Because Noble Panther Decks Keeper
Eastman
Guest
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2014, 02:47:32 pm »

Wow. What year is it? Kowal? Zee-Herbus? Good lawd.

BTW I'm alive, hi.

Shouldn't you be lifting?

Oh btw I still have the Squee, Goblin Nabob that you loaned me in ~2005 for Cerebral Assassin.  I won Mykeatog's Mox with that deck--I wonder where he is? 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:55:19 pm by Eastman » Logged
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 02:58:54 pm »

A report where I talk about Ancient Wizards returning from Oblivion has awoken more Ancient Wizards from Oblivion. This is better than anticipated.
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
Razvan
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 772



View Profile
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2014, 01:07:13 pm »

I think that Strategic Planning would probably necessitate a third big artifact. But that's another great idea.
Logged

Insult my mother, insult my sister, insult my girlfriend... but never ever use the words "restrict" and "Workshop" in the same sentence...
Pizzatog
Basic User
**
Posts: 208



View Profile
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2014, 11:17:36 pm »

It's been years since I've posted (although I read TMD regularly), but congrats!

Seeing Control Slaver back makes me really happy. It's one of my favorite decks of all time.
Logged

blah.
fsecco
Basic User
**
Posts: 560



View Profile Email
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2014, 02:20:16 pm »

With all the creature removal nowadays in Vintage I often find Goblin Welder too slow in midgame. Do you guys think 1 Argivian Restoration could make the cut?
Logged
conboy31
Basic User
**
Posts: 126

skype: pgconboy

conboy007 none
View Profile Email
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2014, 05:33:17 pm »

If you look to replace a specific ability of a card it is easy to get lost in the power level of vintage.  Is a 2UU sorcery with gy restrictions better than just playing 2UU Jace?
Logged

AVOID MTG Fanatic! They remand orders and re-list the cards for more money.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=216721
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.055 seconds with 21 queries.