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Author Topic: How to beat BUG with stax prison  (Read 11695 times)
Thiim
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« on: July 27, 2014, 10:40:36 am »

1'st place at Eternal Prague 2014 with Stax MUD! This is the biggest tournament I've won so far in vintage. I think that it was both because of a lot of testing and of course luck on the day.

So we played 6 rounds of swiss:

round 1: I meet Dredge and win 2-1

round 2: I meet welder control and win 2-0

round 3: I meet BUG and win 2-0

round 4: I meet Oath and win 2-1(this guy runs trygon predator in his SB! & also made the top8)

round: 5: I draw against Stax

round 6: draw against MUD

In the quarterfinal i meet BUG and win 2-0. This guy was a little unlucky mulligan to 6 cards in both games and I just drew pretty broken: with turn 1 golem followed up by a sphere of resistance in game 1 and game 2 with double golem, one of them getting shattered by a snuff out and a tangle wire getting countered by Fow. He concede after I play Crucible of worlds with a visual Wasteland.

In the semifinal I meet Stax which i drawed against in round 5. This player had a very similar list to mine, but had Karn, Silver Golem, Staff of Nin & Coercive Portal in Main. In game 1 I lock him out with playing: ruby, wasteland, chalice on zero and revoker naming sol ring. he plays factory and says go. i waste his land, play workshop and land a Smokestack. He waste my shop. I play ancient tomb and land a Crucible of worlds. then a sphere, then a wurmcoil engine. Game 2 he mulligan to 3 cards! and on the next 2 turns he draw workshop and land a Steel Hellkite. Unfortunately for him I had Metamorph, double Dismember and double Duplicant.

In the Final i meet BUG for the 3'rd time this tournament. Game 1 my opponent steals the game with a Trygon Predator, even though I used Metamorph on it, he has decay for removing it. Game 2 I land a turn one Lodestone, followed by 2 Metamorph. Game 3 is the longest match of all day and i deal myself an amount of 18 damage(life is irrelevant right?) so i manage to give 38 damage in total this game.

I think that BUG is a very difficult MU for MUD because of the hate-cards they run. Fortunately my deck is not hurt so much by Null Rod as the metalworker/forgemaster brew is. Deathrite Shaman can really screw up my Crucible plan and is also a great accelerator in itself. A turn one Bob is a problem that makes me want to play faster. Snapcaster Mage is not my biggest worry, because if I get a soft lock, It's difficult for the BUG player to get advantage out of snappy.

Here you can watch the final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9katpIQ_74cyAnd

Here you can find my list including the other 7 TOP 8 participants:

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/17342#245688

I sideboarded Duplicant in all matches except for the dredge MU. and also Dismember had a huge role to play. This makes me think that i need creature removal in the maindeck. But I find it very difficult what to take out. The 2 wurmcoil engine are open slots.
I also want to have a draw engine of somekind, thinking of coercive portal since it can be cast on turn 1 or 2 easily. Staff of Nin is also great for removing threats and I have Metamorph to make Extra's of each card. Any Suggestions what to change for the future?
Do anybody have experience playing portal or staff, what are the pro-cons?

Feel free to ask any questions or point out all the mistakes I made in the match Smile
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orgcandman
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 01:06:17 pm »

In the finals, you said BUG beat you with trygon even though you metamorphed it - because he had decay.  Metamorph costs 4.  It doesn't copy the CMC.  You can't decay a metamorph.

Rule 706.2 wants to talk with you, I think.
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AliFromBaghdad
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 07:09:05 pm »

Why did't you untap your revoker in game one? You can block Bob with it...
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Thiim
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 11:39:27 pm »

Why did't you untap your revoker in game one? You can block Bob with it...

lol, your right! only noticed that now, what a blunder.. Weird that the Judge didn't say anything. well, wouldn't have made any difference in that game anyway luckily.
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tribet
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 03:50:22 am »

What's going on at 35 min? the BUG player doesn't tap 4 permanents from Tangle Wire. You guys seem to argue about it and I believe you accept it by saying "Sure if you want to play that way".

Well not really, Tangle Wire is not a "may" trigger, he's so in the wrong. Don't be a bully, you don't have to be the nice guy! It was super relevant as he managed to decay away your Revoker using that spare 4 mana.

I'm a bit like you, sometimes I can't be bothered arguing and there are always these people that you hate being paired against because they are knobheads. But it's a final, just call the judge ffs!

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hashswag
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 04:22:38 am »

Agree, with Ribet, what the actual f*ck happened there? I couldn't make it out; was your opponent trying to say "you said 'sure' when i went to draw, so you forgot the Tangle Wire trigger"? Uhh...no. Bet he was fully aware of the rules and was trying to bully you into letting him cheat, too.

The strongest play a BUG player can make is blatantly cheating. Be wary of this great move where they play Deathrite Shaman, float UG, throw your deck across the room and call a judge on you for slow play while you pick it up.
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Thiim
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 09:50:26 am »

What's going on at 35 min? the BUG player doesn't tap 4 permanents from Tangle Wire. You guys seem to argue about it and I believe you accept it by saying "Sure if you want to play that way".

Well not really, Tangle Wire is not a "may" trigger, he's so in the wrong. Don't be a bully, you don't have to be the nice guy! It was super relevant as he managed to decay away your Revoker using that spare 4 mana.

I'm a bit like you, sometimes I can't be bothered arguing and there are always these people that you hate being paired against because they are knobheads. But it's a final, just call the judge ffs!



I'm glad you noticed and ask about that specific situation. What happened was: I play the tangle wire, and he takes his turn, so when I'm fumbling with these counters for my tangle wire, He intentionally goes directly to the drawstep skipping the upkeep phase and ask me: Draw?! Because I don't pay attention(assuming he tapped down) I respond with yeah, then in a split second says: No, when I realize what is going on, but it was too late there, because the card was already in his hand and I missed my triggers for tangle wire Sad

The Judge said okay for this, but didn't hand out any warnings, which he definitely should have done, that was a huge mistake on the Judges side.

I know that in a competitive event, you shouldn't expect people to help you(I don't help my opponents either) But I sure didn't expect either.

But I'm actually grateful for this experience, because It will help me be more aware of these kind of tricks in the future and will have more focus on my opponent in tournaments.

It was a good lesson to learn, that even though people are polite, they may have a hidden agenda, and the rest of the game I pointed to my tangle wire of course Smile
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AliFromBaghdad
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 04:28:45 pm »

Yeah, you are right, that untapped revoker did not make any difference in game one, but Julian must find that.

It is my first time seeing Julian playing vintage, I can't believe my eyes when I saw he cheated on that wire trigger, because I always think he is a well known eternal player and a gentleman. However, it is understandable that a Spike player like him not only comes to play but to win...

Anyway, Congratulations.
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Samoht
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 05:26:14 pm »

There's a difference between flat cheating and angle shooting. This appears to be an angle shoot. Let's not character assassinate the person. The only person who is responsible for your triggers is you now. He didn't do anything against the rules so the judges had no recourse. It's certainly an ethical issue, but not one that involves judges/warnings/etc.

Edit: Regarding Tangle Wire being a may trigger: It actually sort of is now (as are many if not all triggers) because of the policy change on enforcing missed triggers. Instead of both players being responsible and Failure to Maintain Gamestate penalties being issued it's just a missed trigger and the controller gets a warning if it wasn't a beneficial trigger (assuming there is no devious reason to miss it like Bob at low life) and the other player has the option of putting the trigger on the stack or not. Had you not let him draw a card when he asked you'd still have the right to put your Wire on the stack. By allowing him to draw a card you missed your trigger because the game moved past the upkeep. Something similar happened with a Chalice of the Void recently(ish) in CA which led to the discussion of how playing spells into an opponents Chalice isn't inherently countered because they are responsible for announcing/applying their triggers.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 05:38:36 pm by Samoht » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 06:44:14 pm »


I'm glad you noticed and ask about that specific situation. What happened was: I play the tangle wire, and he takes his turn, so when I'm fumbling with these counters for my tangle wire, He intentionally goes directly to the drawstep skipping the upkeep phase and ask me: Draw?! Because I don't pay attention(assuming he tapped down) I respond with yeah, then in a split second says: No, when I realize what is going on, but it was too late there, because the card was already in his hand and I missed my triggers for tangle wire Sad

The Judge said okay for this, but didn't hand out any warnings, which he definitely should have done, that was a huge mistake on the Judges side.

I know that in a competitive event, you shouldn't expect people to help you(I don't help my opponents either) But I sure didn't expect either.

But I'm actually grateful for this experience, because It will help me be more aware of these kind of tricks in the future and will have more focus on my opponent in tournaments.

It was a good lesson to learn, that even though people are polite, they may have a hidden agenda, and the rest of the game I pointed to my tangle wire of course Smile

Err, no. You are incorrect, both in fact and subtext. There was no shadiness in your opponent's play, at all. This is how the game works now.

Tom already said above what the specific rule is and such so I won't repeat that -- but I just want to point out that the missed trigger policy is now another dimension of the game, and it's your mistake for missing your trigger when your opponent did everything required of him to give you the opportunity to make the correct play in announcing it. It's exactly equivalent to him saying, "Attack for 4?" and you writing down the life loss and then trying to go back and block with a creature you have. I doubt many people would say that him holding you to the no-block is shady; and it is exactly equivalent to this scenario. I agree the new policies don't feel that way yet, because they're relatively new, but that's the way it is.
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tribet
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 08:25:30 pm »

Ok so he bent the latest rules to his advantage but it is nonetheless very shady from him.

The BUG player basically forced his opponent into taking a shortcut while he was still technically trying to resolve his tangle wire properly (ie: finding and arranging 4 counters).

The BUG player clearly engineered that loophole and took good advantage of it. It's a disgusting conduct and if it falls outside the mtg rules book, I would have elevated to the TO or ultimately boycotted the rest of that game on camera.

Get real, it's a game, it's your Sunday arvo, you don't have to pull up with this. I hate cheaters (ps: It's ok to cheat at Monopoly though).
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Samoht
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 08:31:56 pm »

Ok so he bent the latest rules to his advantage but it is nonetheless very shady from him.

The BUG player basically forced his opponent into taking a shortcut while he was still technically trying to resolve his tangle wire properly (ie: finding and arranging 4 counters).

The BUG player clearly engineered that loophole and took good advantage of it. It's a disgusting conduct and if it falls outside the mtg rules book, I would have elevated to the TO or ultimately boycotted the rest of that game on camera.

Get real, it's a game, it's your Sunday arvo, you don't have to pull up with this. I hate cheaters (ps: It's ok to cheat at Monopoly though).

I don't disagree that there is moral implications to what happened. 5 years ago I'd have lauded him for his actions. Today I'm ashamed to say that, and that is a mark of my growth as a person. Here's hoping that winning becomes less important to him than it is now. The TO would also have his hands tied by the rules and your boycott would have gotten you nothing other than a game/match loss in hte finals. Again - it's NOT cheating even if it is morally questionable.
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tribet
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 09:00:41 pm »

What's the rule about not maintaining a proper game's state? Something that would prevent that Revoker from not being inadvertently tapped in Game 1?

It sounds like the judge was watching that game. Does he have to point out the incorrect game's state if he notices it? Or is it up to the opposing player to choose whether it's in his favour or not?

Boycotting on camera would have made a compelling argument about "fair play". If I were a TO, it would be my ground rule#1 and would be harsh about it. If people dislike it, they can go play in another store.
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Samoht
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2014, 09:58:24 pm »

I understand your response. It's a real sucky situation that arose.

The Revoker should have been untapped. I don't know if it was ever noticed by either play as I skipped ahead to the relevant point of the Wire trigger.

It's a trigger. A judge may not point out a trigger, missed or otherwise. They are tasked with preventing cheating. You are allowed to misplay your cards and abilities now. Once the player's apprise him of a broken gamestate, he has to apply the rules. In this case, he should have given the BUG player the option of putting the Tangle Wire on the stack, which would be declined or was declined, and we'd move on knowing that the BUG player was willing to push the rules as far as he could for his own advantage.

The play was totally fair in terms of the rules. I think that's where the disconnect is. It's not like he misrepresented anything or forced his opponent to break the rules. The situation arose and he took advantage of it. It sucks, 100% for the community and for the Shop player. The lesson to be learned is to always make sure to resolve all of your triggers. Get into the habit of announcing everything. The less you take for granted the less quarter you give people who try to take advantage of your shortcuts and/or lack of focus.

To be honest, if the TO did anything else aside from allow it I think he might be open to a WotC investigation because he'd be violating their rules of tournament play. He could talk to the BUG player afterwards about it in private and try to encourage him to be more sporting, but that's not a requirement of his duties just the mark of a good TO/person.

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tribet
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2014, 10:46:00 pm »

18 months ago, I remember a judge that kept telling me about announcing my Oath trigger during both player's turn even though there was no critters on the field. That was rather unnecessary and annoying. There is shortcut & shortcut.

I heard that it is bit like that on MTGO: every single trigger pops up automatically! Is that right? Must be tough too switch back to real mtg.

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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 11:13:31 pm »

18 months ago, I remember a judge that kept telling me about announcing my Oath trigger during both player's turn even though there was no critters on the field. That was rather unnecessary and annoying. There is shortcut & shortcut.

I heard that it is bit like that on MTGO: every single trigger pops up automatically! Is that right? Must be tough too switch back to real mtg.



Well your Oath does trigger every turn. So he's correct that you have to announce it.

And yes, on MTGO everything pops up until you tell it not to.
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 01:46:49 am »

Not buying this "stretching the rules" argument. Even if it's not specifically defined as cheating in the game rules; it's cheating via social engineering by tricking your opponent into not realising that you've conned them until it's too late. Like conning someone into signing a binding contract that is legally enforceable. It's like pointing and saying "hey what's that?" to your opponent in chess, moving their piece while their back is turned and saying "it was your responsibility to make sure that didn't happen."

Twats like this deserve all the character assassination they get. If someone tried this shit on me I'd be telling everyone I knew about it so he could never play another game locally without his opponent sitting there thinking "this guy's a cheat. I'd better be on my guard."
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Thiim
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 06:59:09 am »

I just want to make it clear and point out, that I never called the BUG player a cheater or referred to him so. There is no discussion about that, because he never broke any rules, which means this move was legal.

Sure I was upset when this happened, and it's definitely in the grey area. He did this deliberately and he his intension was avoiding that wire the whole time, just waiting for the right moment.

You can also see him untapping his lands, before I'm done with done with my turn, without passing it on.

And in game 1, when I was about to concede, because i could see i lost to Trygon, He reveals null rod to his dark confidant and draw a card before i even open my mouth to tell him, that it's his game.

I've also watched some of his other games this tournament, where he try to do the same against another shop player who won the swiss actually, but that guy doesn't buy it, maybe he is more used to this stuff i don't know.

But other than that, what do You think of the games?
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tribet
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 08:12:11 am »

But other than that, what do You think of the games?

Game 1, at 11:30 you decide to waste your opponent's land. The problem is that he revealed Wasteland from his Bob trigger meaning that he'll most likely destroy your Ancient Tomb in return next turn. Sacking your waste is not going to help you casting the Golem, Wire and Smokestack you have in hand so it doesn't really advance your plan. Basically, I think it was wrong from you to sac your wasteland at this stage (Bob was already too good at keeping up with any of your Wastelands). You chose the wrong role here

Game 2, no comment.

Game 3, your opp made 6 land drops in a row which is pretty strong against MUD when in slow prison mode. He lost that game on the VT @ 32:40. I think the right pick was Energy Flux. You only had 2 lands, no jewellery, you missed a land drop that turn and Ancient Tomb was already dealing you enough damages. Trygon was wrong because of Dup, Triskelion, Dismember (you had), Metamorph (see game 1). I think he would have outdrawn you easily should he land an Energy Flux at this stage of the game. You got away with it so good on you. I keep repeating it but Tangle Wire is the best card in MUD! That BUG player seemed to respect the card so he's clearly a half decent opponent (still I don't like him nor his mannerisms, hairy arms, bald head, stripy shirt and shady plays).
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:22:51 am by tribet » Logged
Thiim
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2014, 07:44:19 am »

But other than that, what do You think of the games?

Game 1, at 11:30 you decide to waste your opponent's land. The problem is that he revealed Wasteland from his Bob trigger meaning that he'll most likely destroy your Ancient Tomb in return next turn. Sacking your waste is not going to help you casting the Golem, Wire and Smokestack you have in hand so it doesn't really advance your plan. Basically, I think it was wrong from you to sac your wasteland at this stage (Bob was already too good at keeping up with any of your Wastelands). You chose the wrong role here

Game 2, no comment.

Game 3, your opp made 6 land drops in a row which is pretty strong against MUD when in slow prison mode. He lost that game on the VT @ 32:40. I think the right pick was Energy Flux. You only had 2 lands, no jewellery, you missed a land drop that turn and Ancient Tomb was already dealing you enough damages. Trygon was wrong because of Dup, Triskelion, Dismember (you had), Metamorph (see game 1). I think he would have outdrawn you easily should he land an Energy Flux at this stage of the game. You got away with it so good on you. I keep repeating it but Tangle Wire is the best card in MUD! That BUG player seemed to respect the card so he's clearly a half decent opponent (still I don't like him nor his mannerisms, hairy arms, bald head, stripy shirt and shady plays).

Yes, actually in game 3, when he used Vampiric Tutor and got the card he wanted, I was thinking: okay, well I had a good run, this game is over for sure now.

You probably can't hear it on the video, but I said to my opponent:"I know which card you got now." and he replied:"okay, call it then." I said Energy Flux of course because i knew he had it, and it was what everybody was expecting of the spectators. I can honestly say, that I have never been so happy as a MUD player too see a Trygon Predator enter the battlefield, and even better, when i realized he could do nothing to prevent his predator from dying to my Dismember Smile

Your probably right about game 1, I should maybe have tried to cast tangle wire when i could. I don't know if it is the best card in MUD, but it sure steals a lot of games!
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2014, 05:42:30 pm »

During the last BOM i lost a game that was mine because of exactly the same "trick" on a tangle wire trigger (and it was also a BUG player but not the same one) . After the game i asked the judge about this and i got the same answers as above in the thread. I understand it is in the rule and now i will be very carefull about this but i can"t help thinking a rule that "allow" this kind of "trick" in a strategic game is a bad rule. However, live and learn !

To try to answer your question about staff of nim/portal :
I have been playing a stax deck for some time (different from yours, it is a welder stax so some of my conclusions may not fit to your deck) and i find BUG matchup to be quite a difficult matchup too. From my experience, chalice, tangle wire and revoker are very good against BUG but they are not enough. I play 2 staff of nin MD and i am very happy with them since they can kill dark confident and snapcaster. In case of null rod the drawing effect allow to stay in the game even if you can't kill the dark confident. the casting cost can be a problem if their mana denial plan worked well (but i can weld them in) so maybe in your deck the portal is better actually. Since i run expedition map, i use also a random barbarian ring to kill deathrite shaman. I definitively think that MUD/stax requires a reliable (trad. not affected by null rod) way to ping creatures (i use triskel too in SB but it is not very good because of null rod).

My 10 cents
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 05:46:00 pm by Albarkhane » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2014, 09:50:10 am »

During the last BOM i lost a game that was mine because of exactly the same "trick" on a tangle wire trigger (and it was also a BUG player but not the same one) . After the game i asked the judge about this and i got the same answers as above in the thread. I understand it is in the rule and now i will be very carefull about this but i can"t help thinking a rule that "allow" this kind of "trick" in a strategic game is a bad rule. However, live and learn !

This whole discussion brings up the question of how you view gamesmanship. I personally feel that having players control their triggers is a good thing because it will make them pay more attention and in general be more careful. It stinks when things like this happen, but it is unfortunately now part of the game.

I have been playing a stax deck for some time (different from yours, it is a welder stax so some of my conclusions may not fit to your deck) and i find BUG matchup to be quite a difficult matchup too. From my experience, chalice, tangle wire and revoker are very good against BUG but they are not enough. I play 2 staff of nin MD and i am very happy with them since they can kill dark confident and snapcaster. In case of null rod the drawing effect allow to stay in the game even if you can't kill the dark confident. the casting cost can be a problem if their mana denial plan worked well (but i can weld them in) so maybe in your deck the portal is better actually. Since i run expedition map, i use also a random barbarian ring to kill deathrite shaman. I definitively think that MUD/stax requires a reliable (trad. not affected by null rod) way to ping creatures (i use triskel too in SB but it is not very good because of null rod).

I have two words for you. Razormane Masticore. Razormane's drawback is exploitable in a deck containing Goblin Welder and the 3 damage which it deals should not be understated as this allows it to kill Trygon Predator as well as the smaller BUG creatures. I understand that this deck is somewhat outdated, but I think that the shell of this deck is really where you want to be with Welder Stax. http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1629&highlight=5#place5
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:06:18 am by Wmagzoo7 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2014, 02:51:42 pm »

During the last BOM i lost a game that was mine because of exactly the same "trick" on a tangle wire trigger (and it was also a BUG player but not the same one) . After the game i asked the judge about this and i got the same answers as above in the thread. I understand it is in the rule and now i will be very carefull about this but i can"t help thinking a rule that "allow" this kind of "trick" in a strategic game is a bad rule. However, live and learn !

This whole discussion brings up the question of how you view gamesmanship. I personally feel that having players control their triggers is a good thing because it will make them pay more attention and in general be more careful. It stinks when things like this happen, but it is unfortunately now part of the game.

The problem comes from expecting both players to be above board when performing shortcuts.  In this instance the mud player allowed a shortcut where the bug player was allowed to begin his turn while he put counters on tangle wire, presumably in an effort to save time (which greatly favors the bug player already, given mud's ability to close out games rather quickly).  The bug player then took advantage of the situation and baited his opponent into making a mistake while he was distracted.

It is most definitely the mud players fault that he got duped, but the bug player is a shady Spike that I personally would have called a judge on if for no other reason than to make sure he doesn't keep getting away with such plays.  Moral of the story is don't be nice to strangers...
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 03:53:41 pm »

During the last BOM i lost a game that was mine because of exactly the same "trick" on a tangle wire trigger (and it was also a BUG player but not the same one) . After the game i asked the judge about this and i got the same answers as above in the thread. I understand it is in the rule and now i will be very carefull about this but i can"t help thinking a rule that "allow" this kind of "trick" in a strategic game is a bad rule. However, live and learn !

This whole discussion brings up the question of how you view gamesmanship. I personally feel that having players control their triggers is a good thing because it will make them pay more attention and in general be more careful. It stinks when things like this happen, but it is unfortunately now part of the game.

The problem comes from expecting both players to be above board when performing shortcuts.  In this instance the mud player allowed a shortcut where the bug player was allowed to begin his turn while he put counters on tangle wire, presumably in an effort to save time (which greatly favors the bug player already, given mud's ability to close out games rather quickly).  The bug player then took advantage of the situation and baited his opponent into making a mistake while he was distracted.

It is most definitely the mud players fault that he got duped, but the bug player is a shady Spike that I personally would have called a judge on if for no other reason than to make sure he doesn't keep getting away with such plays.  Moral of the story is don't be nice to strangers...

He'll keep "getting away" with playing in the rules because nothing can be done regarding it....
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2014, 04:19:00 pm »

Most judges I know would eventually give this guy penalties for either unsportsman or cheating if a pattern of abusing shortcuts arose in a single tournament.  At least that is what they have lead me to believe.
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2014, 05:53:35 pm »

Most judges I know would eventually give this guy penalties for either unsportsman or cheating if a pattern of abusing shortcuts arose in a single tournament.  At least that is what they have lead me to believe.

It's most definitively not cheating. Any judge who gave out that penalty would be overextending his authority. I'd wager the appeal would be strong and if the HJ didn't overturn it I don't see the RC letting it stand. I could see a path to unsportsmanlike, but I still don't agree that it would apply. If he was just drawing the card and making the judges hash it out afterwards, then I'm with you. By announcing his draw step I'd contend  that he shifts all of the pressure to his opponent. Since missing a trigger carries no penalty there is no repercussions. Understand that under the old rules instead of nothing happening BOTH players would get warnings. It's a missed trigger. That's it.
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2014, 12:35:51 am »

This is the magic equivalent of "Did you see that film last night, 'Gaylords say no'?" "No." It's so ingrained into us that Untap-Upkeep-Draw is a smooth, quick process with no issues that we shortcut our own turn's straight to draw unless we need to stop at Upkeep at any point. The fact that we do this over and over and over and over again game after game means that by just saying "Draw" he's tricking his opponent into immediately saying "Ok" without thinking about it, as though confirming that there is nothing to consider in the other two steps. He's saying "draw" before his opponent has even looked up from his own cards ffs.

I understand that it's the letter of the law at the moment, but it's utterly ridiculous that the rules make this out to be okay at the moment. This isn't missing your own Bob trigger, should a player really be expected to say "Hang on a minute, let's rewind, you've skipped something" every single turn? This is what shits me about competitive paper magic.
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2014, 06:32:11 am »

It's really not that bad -- we just all have to get in the habit of announcing every trigger, now. All it takes is saying "Wire" and touching your card when your opponent untaps their permanents. When you cast Flusterstorm, say "Flusterstorm, trigger." That's really it.
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2014, 07:49:54 am »

The bottom line is that judges should be able to pull the "poor-sportmanship" card.

Beware: next opponent to storm me to death, to give me a smile full of compassion (and relief)... and, who will eventually ask me out of courtesy:  "fluster?... Trap?..."

I will say to you with a smug look on my face: "no, but thanks for passing priority. A real bummer you didn't actually announce your storm trigger".

Yeah, that will go well. Good MTG skills and the best is that the judge will be powerless.
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2014, 08:10:40 am »

The bottom line is that judges should be able to pull the "poor-sportmanship" card.

Beware: next opponent to storm me to death, to give me a smile full of compassion (and relief)... and, who will eventually ask me out of courtesy:  "fluster?... Trap?..."

I will say to you with a smug look on my face: "no, but thanks for passing priority. A real bummer you didn't actually announce your storm trigger".

Yeah, that will go well. Good MTG skills and the best is that the judge will be powerless.

Just untill the day your opponent asks for stifle  Wink
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