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Author Topic: Vintage Premier Events Will Never Ride Again!  (Read 3775 times)
Zherbus
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« on: August 12, 2014, 07:13:58 pm »

According to confirmation via twitter of this announcement:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-online-announcements-august-12-2014-2014-08-12

Weekend (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) Premier Events will be eliminated next week. They will be replaced by an 11:30 AM PST (2:30 PM EST) daily event.

While the Vintage Qualifier week comes in the heels of this, followed immediately by the championship event, this will be it for the foreseeable future of Vintage Top 8 events.
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 10:05:19 pm »

Sigh. They just needed to realize the times were really poor.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 12:55:22 am by Coopes » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2014, 02:25:07 am »

Actually, for us European players this is a great change. 11:30 A.M. PST is playable for all of the US during the weekend, as is 2:30 P.M. for all Europe. The only ones loosing might be our (few) friends in Japan, for them the tournament should start very close to midnight =/ But then, you can't get it right for all time zones.

Let's see what these Vintage qualifiers offer (except for mediocre prize support at first) ... I'm really looking forward to some competitive tournaments online. So far, I've been only slinging the 2-mans and VMA drafts, no real tournament athmosphere there Wink
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2014, 03:02:54 am »

Oh F*CK OFF. So the only bloody event is at 4:30am my time? What the f*ck is the point of having an online game if you don't give a rat's arse about anyone who isn't American?
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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2014, 02:15:55 pm »

Well, shucks. I just got my account fired up again.
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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2014, 02:57:31 pm »

Oh F*CK OFF. So the only bloody event is at 4:30am my time? What the f*ck is the point of having an online game if you don't give a rat's arse about anyone who isn't American?

I'm not sure what time zone you're in, but the silver lining is that there are now daily events at 2:30 EST, 6:30 EST, and 9:30 EST.
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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2014, 03:03:25 pm »

So we get more daily events at the cost of losing events that weren't firing anyway
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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 03:06:17 pm »

So we get more daily events at the cost of losing events that weren't firing anyway

Yes but they originally stated they were using PE's to make up for the lack of prize support for eternal formats in daily events. Now we just lose the event that they were supposedly using to make up for the lack of prizes in dailies, and we are given more underpaid dailies.

Great if you enjoy playing the game, not great if you enjoy gaining any sort of value out of playing the daily events.
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2014, 03:16:33 pm »

There are enough people who are carrying the torches and pitchforks for the prize support. I don't choose that to be my battle, even I think it could use other work. I'm more concerned with bug fixes and the formats infrastructure and support. I really want there to be at least periodic top 8 events that aren't just dailys.

I don't hate dailys, but I don't exactly care for them either. It's not the prize support, it's the 3-0 and split or go 4-0 simplicity that throwing a ball of shit at wall in hopes that it will stick sometimes pays off. I don't even pay much attention to the results anymore. You see many people enter, go 0-2 drop for like 3 events, then win one out doing the exact same thing. I just don't find it revealing for any useful data. Hell, if Brainstorm were unrestricted, I could run my 2004 Keeper build in every daily for a week and I'd probably prize a few of them. It would even be among the datamining of the goldfish site if I attended the daily that had 23 people instead of 22. That doesn't mean my deck's any good, it just means I got the right pairings and draws that day.

Dailys are useful to test ideas out and great if you just want to play some Vintage with a somewhat respectable prize pay out. Even if we only fired one, the idea that we could have some periodic top eight events was enticing to me. It's at least the hope existing that they'll fire and that maybe they'd give us a better time slot that kept Vintage Online from being a bit of a bummer. Now with just dailys after the qualifier season culminates into the champs, it's going to be literally just as Coopes said: Great if you enjoy playing the game. It's not so great for prizes, sure, but more importantly to me, it's not so great in see results that I would find more useful.
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 04:03:58 pm »

The solution to this mess is PREs. It's only a matter of time before players start running their own Vintage events.
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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 04:10:58 pm »

You know... TMD could do one if we could settle on a time, have TO volunteers, and get some prize support (Moxes?). We could also use the Teamspeak to coordinate and play out rounds. Thats how Hearthstone PREs are run every week.
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 04:14:00 pm »

I'm not sure DEs are any more useful or less useful for data mining than real life tournaments in the case of Vintage. Most events are less than 64 people and you can draw into the top 8 after starting 4-0 and 3-1-1 generally makes the top 8 at the average Vintage tournament. I'm somewhat indifferent to the change but I think WotC should have waited until the transition to the new client is less fresh as I feel like things are still somewhat in flux.
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2014, 04:23:37 pm »

Yeah, my hope was that we'd have regularly and easily researched metrics that WotC (Hi Lee) could use for larger events. I imagine they take proxy events with a grain of salt and really rely on what they see happening in the community and the few higher profile sanctioned events.
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« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 10:42:09 pm »

Oh F*CK OFF. So the only bloody event is at 4:30am my time? What the f*ck is the point of having an online game if you don't give a rat's arse about anyone who isn't American?

I'm not sure what time zone you're in, but the silver lining is that there are now daily events at 2:30 EST, 6:30 EST, and 9:30 EST.

AM or PM? I guess a could play a 9:30pm EST daily on a weekend, since it's 11:30am my time. still rubbish that there's literally nothing to play in between midday and 4:30am.
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2014, 12:41:18 am »

You can play with me hashwag. I literally just finished buying most of a deck online to find out the next morning that this change happened.
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2014, 01:56:33 am »

How hard is it for them to put an event every 6 hours? Why don't they just empty my account and redistribute all my product among their beloved American players if they really do not give two shits about the $3k I spent on their product in good faith that I could actually use it.
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2014, 10:01:36 am »

PM, hashswag... There is also a 8:30 AM Daily event, which is probably 10:30 PM your time?
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2014, 11:05:27 am »

I think had they been able to move the PE time to a non conflicting time with DE's we could have continued to have PE's.
I am not sure what time would have been ideal.
I loved playing in the one PE that fired, even though it went too late for me. I definaltey wanted to play more and would have liked wotc to investigate moving the time versus eradicating them altogether.
Having said that I think getting more DE's is great as a consolation prize.
Now wotc needs to immediately fix the payout probelm for Vintage DE's at 3-1. Two VMA boosters is definately 1 booster shy of fair.
Not too mention our decks are a few grand versus block constructed $1-200 decks. I mean we don't even get the same support they do for crying out loud.
Something backwards about that if you ask me  Wink
Worth has publically admitted to syphoning prize support from Vintage DE's to inflate PE prize support.
I think it is incredibly short sighted and poorly planned to make this announcement without addressing the prize support problem that has been discussed ad-nauseum by the community.
Disappointed is an understatement.
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2014, 01:44:16 pm »

You know... TMD could do one if we could settle on a time, have TO volunteers, and get some prize support (Moxes?). We could also use the Teamspeak to coordinate and play out rounds. Thats how Hearthstone PREs are run every week.

This really is the solution. If we continue to depend on WOTC to properly support Vintage, we are going to continue to be disappointed. If we want it done correctly, the community absolutely must take as much control of the situation as possible.

Let's face it --- the best IRL Vintage events are not the ones that Wizards organizes, but the ones that are hosted by the community. It will not be any different with MODO events.

Steve, if you are interested in setting one up, let's discuss what is required and move forward. If it goes to shit, at least we know we gave it a shot. TBH, I really don't see how this would be anything other than a huge success.
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 02:08:00 am »

Where can I go to see the times for mtgo daily/premiere/whatever events? I can't seem to find it on the wizards site.
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 09:14:24 am »

Where can I go to see the times for mtgo daily/premiere/whatever events? I can't seem to find it on the wizards site.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/magic-online

under schedules

http://magic.wizards.com/en/gameinfo/products/magiconline/schedule-hub

under view magic online schedules

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/events-schedule-2014-08-13

under Scheduled Daily and Premier Events Calendar

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/events-schedule-2014-08-13#calendar

all times are pacific unless noted
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 10:45:46 pm »

I've run "large" PRE's on MTGO for the past 3 years. They are a gigantic pain in the ass, to put it bluntly. Having sanctioned events run automatically by WotC (for whatever peanuts they were willing to throw at us) was a much more elegant solution to resorting to PRE's.

The biggest problem with PRE's is gathering prizes. I've never read the TOC, and frankly they really are subject to WotC discretion anyway, but I've always followed the consensus that you can not have a mandatory entry fee for PRE's. You can only have a suggested donation. Inevitably, you'll get some people that will donate the suggested amount, a very select few that donate more than the recommended amount, and a significant amount of "free-loaders". Also, the initial wave of support will appear positive, but over time, expect fewer and fewer people to actually donate. Sponsors (bots, mainly) largely believe that they are just wasting money in that their exposure is worthless. Maybe Vintage changes that equation a little bit, but I doubt it, especailly in a time where people are massively unloading their collections.
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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2014, 12:40:59 am »

I've run "large" PRE's on MTGO for the past 3 years. They are a gigantic pain in the ass, to put it bluntly. Having sanctioned events run automatically by WotC (for whatever peanuts they were willing to throw at us) was a much more elegant solution to resorting to PRE's.

The biggest problem with PRE's is gathering prizes. I've never read the TOC, and frankly they really are subject to WotC discretion anyway, but I've always followed the consensus that you can not have a mandatory entry fee for PRE's. You can only have a suggested donation. Inevitably, you'll get some people that will donate the suggested amount, a very select few that donate more than the recommended amount, and a significant amount of "free-loaders". Also, the initial wave of support will appear positive, but over time, expect fewer and fewer people to actually donate. Sponsors (bots, mainly) largely believe that they are just wasting money in that their exposure is worthless. Maybe Vintage changes that equation a little bit, but I doubt it, especailly in a time where people are massively unloading their collections.

This covers every one of my concerns... it'd pretty much have to be free and it would have to come out of someones pocket. :/
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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2014, 10:06:19 am »

I've run "large" PRE's on MTGO for the past 3 years. They are a gigantic pain in the ass, to put it bluntly. Having sanctioned events run automatically by WotC (for whatever peanuts they were willing to throw at us) was a much more elegant solution to resorting to PRE's.

The biggest problem with PRE's is gathering prizes. I've never read the TOC, and frankly they really are subject to WotC discretion anyway, but I've always followed the consensus that you can not have a mandatory entry fee for PRE's. You can only have a suggested donation. Inevitably, you'll get some people that will donate the suggested amount, a very select few that donate more than the recommended amount, and a significant amount of "free-loaders". Also, the initial wave of support will appear positive, but over time, expect fewer and fewer people to actually donate. Sponsors (bots, mainly) largely believe that they are just wasting money in that their exposure is worthless. Maybe Vintage changes that equation a little bit, but I doubt it, especailly in a time where people are massively unloading their collections.

I'm curious --- what is the basis for the consensus that PREs cannot have a mandatory entry fee?

I look at a PRE no differently than I would a regular magic tournament. Entry fees are not optional. I guess I am missing something. Is it a legal issue?
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 11:00:23 am »

I think it is based on this FAQ from the mothership forums for many years ago: http://community.wizards.com/forum/magic-online-player-run-events/threads/1024016. I tried searching for other answers, but this is all I could come up with.

Basically, WotC can not control what happens outside of their sanctioned events. Scamming people (no matter how honest the TO appears to be) can not be resolved by WotC. If someone was to claim that they were scammed by a TO, WotC could not verify what happened, which is probably why they frown upon it. Perhaps there is also a little bit of the gambling issue as well... I really don't know with 100% certainty.

The real problem is that the COC for MTGO is about as ironclad as a puddle of mercury. WotC can, and has in the past, interpreted the COC to whatever liking they choose on any given day. I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question that someone could get banned for running a PRE that "requires" an entry fee.
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 11:31:39 am »

I think it is based on this FAQ from the mothership forums for many years ago: http://community.wizards.com/forum/magic-online-player-run-events/threads/1024016. I tried searching for other answers, but this is all I could come up with.

Basically, WotC can not control what happens outside of their sanctioned events. Scamming people (no matter how honest the TO appears to be) can not be resolved by WotC. If someone was to claim that they were scammed by a TO, WotC could not verify what happened, which is probably why they frown upon it. Perhaps there is also a little bit of the gambling issue as well... I really don't know with 100% certainty.

The real problem is that the COC for MTGO is about as ironclad as a puddle of mercury. WotC can, and has in the past, interpreted the COC to whatever liking they choose on any given day. I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question that someone could get banned for running a PRE that "requires" an entry fee.

Thanks for posting the link. I don't see anything in that thread that indicates a mandatory entry fee is against the rules.

I may take it upon myself to try organizing such an event. It does seem like it would be very tough, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. If anyone with PRE experience has suggestions regarding the logistics of such an event, I would be interested to hear them.
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2014, 01:44:28 pm »

I wish it was easy to collect fees, or even donations, but it's a time consuming task. Inevitably, people will register for the event at the last minute; that's simply what people do. To then rush to get them to open a trade with you to collect the fee/donation takes a lot of time. The last thing you want to do is turn people away or delay a tournament for an hour or so to hound people to pony up the entry fee. It's just a lose/lose situation.

It's also impossible to prevent cheating. People can change their deck at will in between matches, especially the sideboard, and there is little a TO can do to stop it. Making a decklist public can obviously curtail that activity, but that comes with the caveat that you know the entire contents of your opponents deck before the game even starts, which is a key component of being a skilled player. The last option is to have decklists private until after the event, but even then, unless people are going over the results with a fine comb, it'll be hard to stop it. I can't say that anyone actively cheated in my 3 years running events, but I opted for the "public decklist before the match starts" route, and everyone hated it. It was the only way I could see eliminating cheating.
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 01:48:45 pm »

Also, if you haven't already, I'd check out www.gatherling.com. They are a great resource to automate the pairings and registration process of PRE's.
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