MaximumCDawg
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« on: August 18, 2014, 11:31:43 am » |
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So they spoiled a card from KTK in connection with the new duel decks. That card itself is not playable and not worth even talking about, but the clan mechanic on the card suggests we might actually see some interesting stuff come out of the set. The mechanic is called "Prowess," but it might as well be "Wee Dragonautess" because that's what it does. Cast a non-creature spell, get +1/+1.
There's really only one card with this mechanic that was sorta kinda maybe playable in Vintage (Kiln Fiend), and another one that USED to be playable (Quirion Dryad). Given that the whole set is getting a mechanic based around this, though, maybe we will finally get some cards that turn these on?
And that's the point of this here thread, to pose this question: What kind of support for the "Prowess" mechanic is good enough to launch stuff like Kiln Fiend and Dryad back into consideration in Vintage?
For my part, I think what makes these cards good is having charm-like effects that help you land and protect the creature or close out the game, depending. For example:
Mardu Charm WBR
Instant
Choose One - Target creature gains +1/+0 and double strike until end of turn; return target creature with a casting cost of 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield; or destroy target creature or planeswalker.
Something like that would let Kiln Fiend hit for 10, or get it back from the yard, and could function as removal in a pinch.
I don't think cantripping spells are enough to make this effect playable, since no one is using Probe to power up Fiend, but I could be wrong.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 12:33:59 pm » |
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Kiln Fiend only works with instants and sorceries. Dryad only works with colored spells. Does this mechanic work with instant, sorceries, creatures, and artifacts?
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 12:51:45 pm » |
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It works with non creature spells. Because that is supposed to convey trickery for some reason. It is really starting to look like Khans could be a second Theros. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 01:50:04 pm » |
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It works with non creature spells. Because that is supposed to convey trickery for some reason. It is really starting to look like Khans could be a second Theros. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
It's a little too early for that. Two of the five mechanics are creature-based, yes, but let's see what else is coming down the pipe. And depending on the support, it could work out just fine. Don't forget that Theros was hampered by self-limiting mechanics and no stomach for printing cards that truly abuse them. (All would have been forgiven quickly if you start printing cheap ways to repeatedly untap cards to make Inspired work, for example) Anyway, I would be SHOCKED if there were actually cards with "Prowess" printed on them that were anywhere near Vintage playable. I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is this: will the need to support "Prowess" lead to Vintage playable cards? And, in particular, cards that might help make Dryad or Fiend playable again? It's entirely possible, right? I mean, if you want to make Prowess work as a mechanic, you need to have support in the set. Something in the set has to help you cast lots of spells in a single turn. Sounds like a recipe for Storm enablers, doesn't it? At a minimum, it sounds like the set has some design pressure to make non-creature cards cheaper or repeatable to get value out of Prowess. THIS is why I think Prowess is a promising sign.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 02:56:47 pm » |
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It works with non creature spells. Because that is supposed to convey trickery for some reason. It is really starting to look like Khans could be a second Theros. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
It's a little too early for that. Two of the five mechanics are creature-based, yes, but let's see what else is coming down the pipe. And depending on the support, it could work out just fine. Don't forget that Theros was hampered by self-limiting mechanics and no stomach for printing cards that truly abuse them. (All would have been forgiven quickly if you start printing cheap ways to repeatedly untap cards to make Inspired work, for example) Anyway, I would be SHOCKED if there were actually cards with "Prowess" printed on them that were anywhere near Vintage playable. I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is this: will the need to support "Prowess" lead to Vintage playable cards? And, in particular, cards that might help make Dryad or Fiend playable again? It's entirely possible, right? I mean, if you want to make Prowess work as a mechanic, you need to have support in the set. Something in the set has to help you cast lots of spells in a single turn. Sounds like a recipe for Storm enablers, doesn't it? At a minimum, it sounds like the set has some design pressure to make non-creature cards cheaper or repeatable to get value out of Prowess. THIS is why I think Prowess is a promising sign. The fact that this is such a blatantly Theros-like mechanic(Make your creature bigger), for the clan of Cunning no less, is what worries me. It may still be too early, yes, but the direction the game is going makes me skeptical that they would print storm enablers nowadays. Perhaps you're right though, and I'm just being too cynical. Edit: This mechanic might be fun in limited at least.
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« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 03:47:03 pm by JarofFortune »
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 03:42:21 pm » |
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Cast a non-creature spell, get +1/+1 until end of turn. Fixed that important distinction for you. Just in case anyone wasn't paying close attention and thought prowess was like Dryad. I don't think there is any real possibility that setting up prowess will lead to making Dryad playable again because generally what made dryad good was cheap/free card draw and counterspells, and it's not 1999 anymore.
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fsecco
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:52:46 pm » |
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Young Pyromancer is what made "Dryad" playable again.
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serracollector
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 08:03:39 pm » |
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Maybe they will bring back the buyback mechanic with cheap or alternate costs. I also like the fact its any non creature spell i mean this makes a few moxen and hurkylls a possible win outside of storm.
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 11:14:05 pm » |
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Prowess indicates to me that we MAY see some spells that can be cast when tapped out (representing trickery.) I don't think we will see a force reprint in this set, but pitch spells are always possible vintage contenders.
The only way your going to get a creature with prowess to be vintage playable is if its basically just a creature that is already playable in vintage but with that tagged on. Based on the number of spells a deck casts on its own turn (Since the bonus is really only ever going to help if your attacking) you would basically have to reprint delver but with this. If they made a creature that was U for a 2/2 flyer with Prowess it MIGHT have a shot at sitting next to delver, but realistically that card then becomes WAY above the curve and probably never gets printed because of standard.
There are no lack of ways to pump creatures in magic, so likely this ability is a dead end, but I hold out hope that support cards for the ability may be playable.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 11:48:04 pm » |
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It works with non creature spells. Because that is supposed to convey trickery for some reason. It is really starting to look like Khans could be a second Theros. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
I'm pretty sure it will be. There was some article being discussed on MTG Salvation about how designers are excited to see the "[full realization]" of power de-creep in Standard once the oh so broken Return to Ravnica rotates out at Khans takes its place. Apparently, they think five years of Homelands is a great idea. I wonder if they'll try to out-do the 5 mana Holy Strength or 6 mana Arc Lightning.
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"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards. And then the clouds divide... something is revealed in the skies."
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zeus-online
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 08:57:21 am » |
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:16:03 pm by zeus-online »
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 01:05:56 pm » |
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It works with non creature spells. Because that is supposed to convey trickery for some reason. It is really starting to look like Khans could be a second Theros. I sincerely hope that is not the case.
I'm pretty sure it will be. There was some article being discussed on MTG Salvation about how designers are excited to see the "[full realization]" of power de-creep in Standard once the oh so broken Return to Ravnica rotates out at Khans takes its place. Apparently, they think five years of Homelands is a great idea. I wonder if they'll try to out-do the 5 mana Holy Strength or 6 mana Arc Lightning. I actually think that a little bit of power decreep in creatures is warranted for the good of the game, in order to clean up the mess that newer design philosophies have created. A great example of this is described by Sam stoddard in the recent article saying why Standard isn't getting four mana wraths or good removal anymore. He says that a few years back, when Lightning bolt and doom blade were in standard, that the removal was "so powerful" that they had to mAke the titan cycle to get people to play expensive creatures. That's funny, because removal has been strong for most of Magic's history, and there was never any need to push creatures like that. The soul cycle in m15 is what the titans should have been. Now, however, Wizards thinks that good removal and mass removal are unfun, so for unconditional wraths Standard gets Extinguish all hope, and for removal it gets hero's downfall and flesh to dust. The lack of good removal means that I will be drafting M15 a lot less than pre-theros sets. The whole point of this is, creatures have been pushed a huge amount, and are now regressing slightly, while noncreature cards have been regressing for a long time. Now they say certain things like good removal are too powerful for standard. No it is not. I actually might play Standard if Tempo was viable. But no, even though tempo decks are creature based, Wizards can't have that because it isn't any of the Midrange crap that they've been pushing. Because Snapcaster for mana leak was unfun amd overpowered, despite the powerful opening of thoughtseize into pack rat that exists in current Standard. If you read the Spoiler article for Cavern of souls by Zac hill, this idiocy will be further explained. I might play Standard if draw-go was viable. But they can't have that, new players who aren't used to counterspells might find it unfun. The least they could do is just push noncreature spells a little more. Make creature-light strategies more viable(I know that the Pt Winning deck was creatureless, but Control may straight up die after rotation). Had Theros really been an enchantment Block, and not an aura block, there would have been creative enchantments in the vein of arboria, aluren, opalescence, dream halls. All the build-around cards have to be creatures and planeswalkers, however. It gives me a little happiness to have seen Maro admiting that they screwed up with Theros Block, especially Born of the Gods, yet for the wrong reasons. He said that it was a mistake to wait for the third set to add the global enchantments amd enchantment matters cards. That is true, but not a single one of the global enchantments had original design. They were old effects like the enchantress ability or pyrostatic pillar tacked onto creatures. How original. The dictate cycle was a collection of old artifacts and enchantments woth a mana or two tacked on to justify givig them flash. The only original enchantment design was on the gods and the two mana green enchantment, and even then it seemed lazy. I pity everyone who has had to join the game in the last block. The only good set released in the last year was Conspiracy, and I am not a multiplayer guy. In the end, i suppose ot os Wotc's loss. They could be getting a lot of my money even if they made standard and likited like they were just two and a half years ago. Is return to ravnica considered broken or particularly powerful? I haven't played standard for quite some time...but i watched the pro tour m15 coverage (or at least some of it) and the format seemed quite tame.
Edit: I do get that you are being sarcastic.
Most sets in standard suck so much that RtR, which I would consider a set with a silid, yet average power level before recently, is the defining set. It has the core cards of every control deck, Mono black, and mono blue. These are cards on the level of judge's familiar, Pack rat, sphinx's revelation. It is the average no more, unfortunately. I know people who joined the game during Theros block, and most consider the cards in RtR to be broken.
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:10:31 pm by JarofFortune »
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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Hrishi
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 01:13:09 pm » |
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I pity everyone who has had to join the game in the last block. The only good set released in the last year was Conspiracy, and I am not a multiplayer guy. In the end, i suppose ot os Wotc's loss. They could be getting a lot of my money even if they made standard and likited like they were just two and a half years ago. Apparently I joined MTG at the worst time. Thankfully there's always vintage. 
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Lyna turned to the figure beside her. "They're gone. What now?" "As ever," said Urza, "we wait."
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DubDub
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 01:23:04 pm » |
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Is return to ravnica considered broken or particularly powerful? I haven't played standard for quite some time...but i watched the pro tour m15 coverage (or at least some of it) and the format seemed quite tame.
RTR has a wealth of cards that have impacted Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage and Commander a great deal: Jace, AoT is the second best Jace, which says a great deal. Sphinx's Revelation is the cornerstone of the Standard format. Vraska the Unseen sees play in Standard/Commander. Abrupt Decay has had a huge effect on Legacy primarily, but Modern and Vintage as well. Cyclonic Rift is amazing in Commander Deathrite Shaman has had a huge effect on Legacy and Vintage, and has been banned in Modern. Desecration Demon is a big player in Standard. Detention Sphere is a central tool for Standard control decks. Dreadbore is a pretty fundamental removal spell (though it was arguably replaced by Hero's Downfall due to instant speed and the power of staying mono-black). Mizzium Mortars is a necessary response to Blood Baron of Vizkopa (which is also in RTR). Pack Rat is one of the defining cards of Standard, and will break into Modern, Legacy, and Vintage (some are working with it already). Rest in Peace is the most comprehensive anti-graveyard card of all time, if not also the best. Supreme Verdict is another central tool for Standard control decks. Underworld Connections is a powerful part of mono-black. Let's also keep in mind that RTR block produced two brand-new legendary guild leaders in each of the ten two-color combinations, opening up many new choices for Commander players (I have a Varolz deck myself). All of that without dipping into uncommons/commons like Golgari Charm, which rose in importance when it became the primary way to kill True-Name Nemesis. The Standard format has been stale for two years because of how awesome that set was, which gave UW four needed elements all at once: Revelation, Verdict, Jace, and Detention Sphere. It gave mono-black almost all the tools it needed (which were only increased with Mutavault, Thoughtseize, and devotion). Etc.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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zeus-online
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 01:30:40 pm » |
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 02:15:49 pm by zeus-online »
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 01:48:21 pm » |
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Speaking to JarofFortune's comments, and some others that followed him: If M15 is an indication of what they mean by power de-creep, then by all means, de-creep away. Theros and Born of the Gods were giant turds; Journey into Nyx and M15 may well be lower power level than some recent sets, but at least they're doing INTERESTING things.
M15 was a fantastic core set if you care about interesting and unique cards that either have Vintage applications today, or do something that is potentially a cog in a future engine. Sure, you don't have any more completely bonkers broken creatures, but they are at least doing INTERESTING things. It reminds me a lot of Mercadian Masques, in a good way. Creatures are dialed way back (mind you, not as much here as in Masques) but they're doing interesting things on the side. Masques had pitch spells galore, and M15 has at least these gems:
Devouring Light - Oblivion Ring 2.0, good for commander. Hushwing Gryff - Sideboard hatebear for Modern. Preeminent Captain - Good enabler for Modern, may someday spawn a competitive Soldiers deck. The Souls - They're not good as such, but they present a unique combination of abilities. If they are in play, they each let you do something an arbitrarily large amount of times if you have infinite mana. In other words, they are potentially finishers in some kind of combo list down the road. Maybe just EDH, maybe not, it depends. Since they work from the yard, they also give us more effects that we can use when we're dredging. Immediate applications? None, really. Long term? These are unique tools and might someday be used. Chasm Skulker - Not tier 1, but a totally fun creature and at least worth experimenting with in Legacy. Chief Engineer - Again, not really workable in Vintage, but the effect is unique and might find a home in Modern. Ensoul Artifact - A Vintage-playable card that lets your Tezz deck do a pretty decent Goyf impression. Illusory Angel - Again, Modern only, but the idea of a Sea Drake being playable there is pretty exciting. Jace, the Living Controversy - Not Vintage playable but better than its critics give it credit for if you're working on a tap-out control deck with limited ability to dilute its removal suite for card advantage. Jarlia - Polymorph with legs. Good idea, helps make the polymorph combo deck more reliable. Modern, again. Void Snare - An interesting hole is plugged; now Chain of Vapor is a Sorcery for Burning Wish. etc, etc, etc
The point is that just because they want to dial down the power level of a set does NOT mean that the set ends up bad. You don't have to print something like M14 or Theros. You can give the community interesting toys while dialing back the power of creatures and removal.
If that is ultimately what they want to do with Khans, I'm all on board with that. Pull back on creatures and removal. Pull back on big, splashy spells and give us lots of new efficient quirky ones. That's a recipe for success in my book.
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rickster
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 02:06:22 pm » |
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I might play Standard if draw-go was viable. But they can't have that, new players who aren't used to counterspells might find it unfun. The least they could do is just push noncreature spells a little more. Make creature-light strategies more viable(I know that the Pt Winning deck was creatureless, but Control may straight up die after rotation). You sound like sour grapes mixed with the good old day syndrome. Draw go has been great for the past 2 years. We got our millstone in nephalia drownyard. We got stroke of genius in revelation. We got morphling in aetherling. We got a blue regrowth in snapcaster mage. We got wrath of god in supreme verdict. We got mana leak/dissolve instead of counter spell. We got think twice instead of accumulated knowledge. You can win in standard with elixir of immortality as your win condition. Draw go has been tier 1/2 for the past 2 years in standard, where have you been?
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 04:59:49 pm » |
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I might play Standard if draw-go was viable. But they can't have that, new players who aren't used to counterspells might find it unfun. The least they could do is just push noncreature spells a little more. Make creature-light strategies more viable(I know that the Pt Winning deck was creatureless, but Control may straight up die after rotation). You sound like sour grapes mixed with the good old day syndrome. Draw go has been great for the past 2 years. We got our millstone in nephalia drownyard. We got stroke of genius in revelation. We got morphling in aetherling. We got a blue regrowth in snapcaster mage. We got wrath of god in supreme verdict. We got mana leak/dissolve instead of counter spell. We got think twice instead of accumulated knowledge. You can win in standard with elixir of immortality as your win condition. Draw go has been tier 1/2 for the past 2 years in standard, where have you been? Those are, for the most part, hybrids of draw-go and tap-out control decks. They might hold up countermagic some of the time, especially in the late game, but they spend just as much time tapping out to play a Jace, a detention Sphere, etc. I'm thinking more about the blue control decks that mostly run counterspells for disruption. There might be some wraths and removal to clean up what gets past the wall of counters. Wizards has said in their articles that this is a play style they consider unfun. It wouldn't even have to be the best deck in the format, just competitive enough that I could play it for a whole year. The PT winning decklist, while still a hybrid, leans more on the draw-go side of the spectrum, and I might even have chosen to get into standard to play it if rotation wasn't happening in a month. Once rotation happens, that deck will no longer be viable. On Mana leak, Wizards seems to not want to reprint that card, because they somehow think It will bring back a tier 1 tempo deck, despite the fact that it will not without good threats and cantrips. It doesn't even look like Control will have any chance against midrange after rotation, from what the Sam Stoddard Article says.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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rickster
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« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 08:24:22 pm » |
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Those are, for the most part, hybrids of draw-go and tap-out control decks. They might hold up countermagic some of the time, especially in the late game, but they spend just as much time tapping out to play a Jace, a detention Sphere, etc. I'm thinking more about the blue control decks that mostly run counterspells for disruption. There might be some wraths and removal to clean up what gets past the wall of counters. Wizards has said in their articles that this is a play style they consider unfun. It wouldn't even have to be the best deck in the format, just competitive enough that I could play it for a whole year. The PT winning decklist, while still a hybrid, leans more on the draw-go side of the spectrum, and I might even have chosen to get into standard to play it if rotation wasn't happening in a month. Once rotation happens, that deck will no longer be viable.
On Mana leak, Wizards seems to not want to reprint that card, because they somehow think It will bring back a tier 1 tempo deck, despite the fact that it will not without good threats and cantrips. It doesn't even look like Control will have any chance against midrange after rotation, from what the Sam Stoddard Article says. I agree that draw go decks will probably be dead with the next set. But I think you missed out on playing control decks for the past couple years. Take a look at this deck that won GP Brisbane in 2011. The only sorcery speed cards it plays is a sweeper, and creature win conditions. That's pretty close to draw go, and like you said WotC does not like making that deck tier 1. So if that's the closet you'll ever get to draw go then why didn't you play it?
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 09:25:05 pm » |
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Those are, for the most part, hybrids of draw-go and tap-out control decks. They might hold up countermagic some of the time, especially in the late game, but they spend just as much time tapping out to play a Jace, a detention Sphere, etc. I'm thinking more about the blue control decks that mostly run counterspells for disruption. There might be some wraths and removal to clean up what gets past the wall of counters. Wizards has said in their articles that this is a play style they consider unfun. It wouldn't even have to be the best deck in the format, just competitive enough that I could play it for a whole year. The PT winning decklist, while still a hybrid, leans more on the draw-go side of the spectrum, and I might even have chosen to get into standard to play it if rotation wasn't happening in a month. Once rotation happens, that deck will no longer be viable.
On Mana leak, Wizards seems to not want to reprint that card, because they somehow think It will bring back a tier 1 tempo deck, despite the fact that it will not without good threats and cantrips. It doesn't even look like Control will have any chance against midrange after rotation, from what the Sam Stoddard Article says. I agree that draw go decks will probably be dead with the next set. But I think you missed out on playing control decks for the past couple years. Take a look at this deck that won GP Brisbane in 2011. The only sorcery speed cards it plays is a sweeper, and creature win conditions. That's pretty close to draw go, and like you said WotC does not like making that deck tier 1. So if that's the closet you'll ever get to draw go then why didn't you play it? You're right, that is a draw-go deck. I would love to have played it, but I only started playing in New Phyrexia, and I didn't start to get remotely good at the game until RtR block. If you want an idea of how good I was at magic back then, at my first draft(Innistrad), I pulled a Snapcaster Mage. I took it because it had Gold coloring on the set symbol, and why would anyone take something over a rare? After the draft, multiple people asked me to trade it. I flipped through some guy's binder, and saw a Moldgraf Monstrosity. It was big, it was green, way better than this bad 2/1 that doesn't do anything. And what was the secondary market anyways? I had never heard of it. So I traded my Snapcaster for what I thought was a much better card. So yes, I would not have had enough understanding of the game during that period to have played a control deck. I've missed out on most of Magic's history, and the direction Wizards is taking the game saddens me. When I play limited(which is less and less nowadays), it doesn't really feel like Magic anymore. When I was new to the game, skilless, I remember Doom Blade and Mana leak standing out as quintessential spells despite the fact that I didn't use decks with them. I'm sure most of you have cards like that, that embody the game. I loved big dudes too, which is why my first and only standard deck was mono green aggro(It was actually semi-competitive). Around the time of Avacyn restored, I played lots of games against my friend's mono blue Tamiyo Draw-go. Keep in mind, I still wasn't very good at the game, and would have been one of the newer, more casual players that Wizards is catering to with recent sets. Getting my key spells countered could be frustrating, but I was enthralled by the Control deck's play style, and thought it one of the coolest things I had encountered in the game, especially when he got the lock of Rewind+Tamiyo emblem. When RtR came out, or it might have been M13, my friend updated his deck to Esper Drownyard. I still didn't understand all of the concepts behind control, but for some reason I was always amused when I faced off against end of turn Think Twice. I didn't think that playing against that deck was unfun. I thought it was a nice challenge, facing off against a deck filled with removal and reliant on a non creature win-condition. I considered most unfun card in Standard to be Thragtusk, ironically. It was my friend's deck that piqued my interest in card draw and durdling, so when I took a look at Legacy decks for the first time, i was instantly drawn to High Tide. It was one of the things that made me love the idea of Pox, as well. Of course, I also thought Mono-Black Hatred from Tempest Block constructed was a viable deck, so I would not say I was ready for Legacy yet (Incidentally, looking at all of these old sets, and seeing cool cards with striking art and text, such as Nether Spirit, Time Spiral, Cursed Scroll, and especially the Abyss, was what led me to Vintage). Over the course of RtR block I finally got a solid grasp of the game, and it had a lot to do with being exposed to the Draw-go Strategy(I didn't even have to play it). My point is, I was one of the new players Wizards thinks they are appeasing with this move to dumb down the game. I considered cheap removal just as much an essential part of the game as giant green creatures. I thought Instant Speed Counters+removal.dec was the coolest thing in my playgroup's casual version of Standard. Wizards doesn't have to bring an entire legacy-level tempo shell into Standard like they did during Innistrad, they just have to bring back Mana Leak and a couple cheap threats, along with cheap removal and one cantrip, even on the level of Serum Visions or Opt. Some more support for Draw-go would be awesome too. Finally, it's worth noting that along with this shift in design, limited formats have become a lot less enjoyable, and I started playing limited when they had cheap, elegant removal, while being a new player.
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 09:29:24 pm by JarofFortune »
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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evouga
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« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 09:34:53 pm » |
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Where is this statement that development is looking to power down Standard?
RtR was a decent set, but Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, M14, Theros, and Born of the Gods were all complete disasters. It's true that Journey into Nyx and M15 were improvements but if they intend to change course and go back to the power level of Gatecrash -> BotG, I'm worried.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 10:01:30 pm » |
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Where is this statement that development is looking to power down Standard?
RtR was a decent set, but Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze, M14, Theros, and Born of the Gods were all complete disasters. It's true that Journey into Nyx and M15 were improvements but if they intend to change course and go back to the power level of Gatecrash -> BotG, I'm worried.
<http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ld/developing-annihilation-2014-08-15> I enjoyed the limited environments of the entire RtR block and M14, to say the least. I wouldn't call M14 a complete disaster. It brought high level reprints, as well as a Vintage Staple. It shook up Modern and Standard. It had decent removal at lower rarities. I wouldn't put it at the level of M13 in terms of limited play, but M14 is a good standard for core sets. I thought M15 is the garbage core set. I was looking forward to a fun Draft set, and to get away from Theros forever, but it felt like an extension of Theros in Many ways. Most of the removal sucks, so it is very bomb reliant. Then there was the stupid decision to print Spectra Ward. That card just ruins games of limited that would otherwise have been skill testing. Spectra Ward is the very definition of uninteractivity. Journey was slightly better than the earlier sets for Vintage, but it made an already abysmal limited experience even worse. Born of the gods is the third worst Expansion of all time, ahead of Prophecy and Saviors. Yes, it is worse than Homelands.
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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evouga
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« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 11:08:12 pm » |
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Ah I play Limited only very rarely, so I can't say anything about the sets from that perspective.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2014, 11:25:20 pm » |
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Yes, it is worse than Homelands.
No, no it's not. Didn't we start going through this, card by card, color by color, a few months ago? Born was a terrible set, yes, but for pete's sake lets keep things in perspective.
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evouga
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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 12:09:51 am » |
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Yes, we've been through all this before.
Zendikar and Innistrad blocks were home runs: high-powered (relatively speaking) without being broken, relevant to all formats all the way down to Vintage, universally beloved. I'm baffled why R&D decided to switch to "forget about interesting, quirky new sets: let's stick some boring combat abilities on overcosted creatures. Nobody plays anything besides limited right?" (I guess they got scared by Snapcaster Mage and Delver of Secrets?) "De-powering" Standard sadly portends more of the same.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 09:43:24 am » |
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See, that's the thing, though. There's really no reason Wizards cannot de-power one aspect of the game (removal, creatures with ETB abilities) and still print Vintage playables or interesting, unique cards. I again point to Mercadian Masques. Its power level was dialed way, way back, but it gave us a good bunch of Vintage playable pitch cards.
I'm cautiously optimistic about Khans because of the pressure on design to make the Prowess mechanic work. Like I said before, if Prowess is going to make any difference, they probably want to make cards that work well with Storm, and Storm has been a Vintage pillar on the ropes for some time now. Like, I could imagine the following safe but interesting cards:
U, Instant, Target creature gets -1/-0 until end of turn. Search your library for a blue instant with a converted mana cost of 1 or less and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.
In Modern/Standard/Legacy, this card is interesting but not amazing. You can chain them together to get your Prowess triggers up, but you're gonna end the chain tutoring for a bounce spell or something. In Vintage, it's a big HELLO to Ancestral Recall, but only in a matchup involving creatures. This is the kind of thing that could easily come out of Khans without violating any of the de-powering mentality they're thinking about.
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evouga
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« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2014, 12:00:03 pm » |
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Do you think they'll print so much support, though? I'm not as optimistic. They might print just the standard suite of combat tricks and consider that to be enough complexity to be interesting in limited. If instants are pushed too strongly, Prowess just becomes unblockability, and wotc wouldn't want that.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 12:24:33 pm » |
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Do you think they'll print so much support, though? I'm not as optimistic. They might print just the standard suite of combat tricks and consider that to be enough complexity to be interesting in limited. If instants are pushed too strongly, Prowess just becomes unblockability, and wotc wouldn't want that.
It's possible. If you had brought Inspired to me in a vacuum, I would have said that this mechanic puts pressure on Wizards to design cards that allow you to repeatedly untap permanents, which is a dangerous and exciting thing to be doing. Untap effects tend to be the hallmark of many infinite combos. As it turns out, of course, they serviced Inspired by reprinting Springleaf Drum. Uh, yay? So yeah, maybe Wizards says, "Giant Growth effects and combat tricks are enough to make Prowess worthwhile" (they're not) and calls it a day. If so, opportunity missed and the set plops out a turd in that department. We'll see. EDIT: Another interesting possibility is cards that give Prowess to creatures. That sound abusable with things like Devoted Druid or Persist.
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« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 01:01:00 pm by MaximumCDawg »
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