Vintage Super League

[Hrishi]

Do you really think the numbers would have been 40% without team testing?

Delver is the deck to beat at the moment. I certainly expected it to show up in large numbers.

No, what I meant was because people in the VSL test together and come to similar conclusions, people show up with similar decks. If Delver is the deck to beat and you expected it to show up in large numbers, I could make the same argument for Martello shops. However, I don't see shops at all? Anywhere in the East coast, Martello shops is a huge consideration at the top tables. Therefore, it's obviously more than just picking the "deck to beat" when selecting a deck for the VSL.

[tribet]

This was suggested after season#1:
"The pairings should be announced only after decklists are submitted"

For the last 3 rounds, people will have a chance to show how good they can read their opponents. I expect the opponents to try some crazier things as the league comes close to an end.

[diopter]

vibeBox: please describe one strategy that would actually fill the role of keeping turn1/2 combo from being a thing in Vintage, that is actually something worth playing. So no 60hate.dec lists, but an actual deck that people would have fun at tournaments with.

[VibeBox]

vibeBox: please describe one strategy that would actually fill the role of keeping turn1/2 combo from being a thing in Vintage, that is actually something worth playing.

well, lets see null rod is not seeing much play right now, mostly because shops is better at locking things down and will bash with golems anyway
i'm sure we'd be seeing more thalias
tangle wire will still exist
using more hard control cards seems more appealing once you're problem doesn't become "oops too many dead cards against shops"
sideboards would no longer have the dual pressures of need both workshop and dredge tools, cards like mindbreak trap and others we're not expecting would become more common, causing meta changes

that's just a couple examples, but more importantly it doesn't matter what i think will fill its space, that's a cheap discrediting tactic. with a card pool as huge as vintage and a player base full of brewers who've been at it much longer than i, it's absurd to think that the inevitable result of the big one falling would be anything but 3 hitherto unplayed decks rising

you also refuse to see "i drew 2 chalice, a shops, and a golem" as just as bad a turn 1/2 thing to happen as (gasp!) a players invests all their resources in tendrils/belchering you. sure you get "more turns" against shops, but if a quarter of the time those turns are spent desperately looking for an answer to being under multiple sphere effects and/or tangle wire, did you reeeally get more turns? quality of turns matters, and even accepting the bad premise that the format devolves into the cliche of turn 1/2 wins constantly, they're more interesting and engaging turns to me than workshops produces anyway

an actual deck that people would have fun at tournaments with.

bullshit criteria
there's a huuuge range of what people consider "fun". any deck with good tools against the meta will see play
i don't consider wokshop "fun". its goal is to have a non-interactive game

[diopter]

Thalia? Shopless Tangle wires? Every deck running 4 Mindbreak Trap? These are not reasonable suggestions to stopping turn 1 combos.

Skimming over your other designs, VibeBox, the problem is that your decks are too greedy. The most powerful weapons against Shops are basic lands, followed by some mix of removal and dudes. If you aren't willing to incorporate these elements into your maindeck then you are quite rightly and justly getting trounced.

A word of advice: there's already one active thread where you made a controversial statement, someone asked you to back up your position with evidence and you doubled down on bluster. Please don't derail this thread in that manner!

[vaughnbros]

A word of advice: there's already one active thread where you made a controversial statement, someone asked you to back up your position with evidence and you doubled down on bluster. Please don't derail this thread in that manner!

Please everyone just ignore him.  He will go away if no one is interacting with him.

[VibeBox]

Thalia? Shopless Tangle wires? Every deck running 4 Mindbreak Trap? These are not reasonable suggestions to stopping turn 1 combos.

like i said, demanding suggestions for an imaginary meta and then attacking them is just a way to avoid the real issue at hand and not engage my actual argument

Skimming over your other designs, VibeBox, the problem is that your decks are too greedy. The most powerful weapons against Shops are basic lands, followed by some mix of removal and dudes. If you aren't willing to incorporate these elements into your maindeck then you are quite rightly and justly getting trounced.

it's cute that you think this is about me complaining about how shops effects "my cool brews".
i have posted one deck to this site, and i play it because of it's shops matchup. what im displeased with is that shops has restricted my choices to such a degree, and no one seems to care because there is a popular attitude that shops is just not a problem and it's just and right that it should exist and just keep getting better.

A word of advice: there's already one active thread where you made a controversial statement, someone asked you to back up your position with evidence and you doubled down on bluster. Please don't derail this thread in that manner!

"doubled down on bluster" lol ok
i am fully cognizant that i have opinions (magic or otherwise) that are not popular in the magic community.
how people react to them is beyond my control. in fact if you read that thread i tried to disengage and asked people to just drop it, but people can't help themselves, they feel a strong urge to dogpile on unpopular opinions with bad arguments

[serracollector]

I had a great time and fun with a competitive deck called Landstill that ran maindeck Mindbreak Trap and Spell Pierce and Steel Sabotage and Force of Will and Mana Drain and Jace and Engineered Explosives that seemed to do just fine against Belcher and Combo without any Chalice or Spheres or Discard. Oh and it was good against the other decks too. Just saying.

[Chubby Rain]

i am fully cognizant that i have opinions (magic or otherwise) that are not popular in the magic community.
how people react to them is beyond my control. in fact if you read that thread i tried to disengage and asked people to just drop it, but people can't help themselves, they feel a strong urge to dogpile on unpopular opinions with bad arguments

I mean, everyone has opinions: how people react to them is in part influenced by how you present those opinions, which you can control. For one, you can follow the rules and clean up your posts:

Re: Official Site Rules
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2008, 02:19:06 PM »
IV.  Bad Writing

Purpose:  Posts need to be legible, coherent, and understandable in order to convey useful information.  Specific examples of posts which violate this rule include, but are not limited to:  

1.  Posting in all lowercase (or all capitalized) letters.

2.  Gross misuse or nonuse of punctuation or paragraphs.

3.  Several egregious spelling errors in one post.

4.  Failure to properly format decklists from Magic Workstation.

5. Excessive or unnecessary abbreviations that make a post difficult to understand, e.g. AIMspeak, 1337speak.

For the record, I do agree with several of the opinions you have expressed...

[VibeBox]

IV.  Bad Writing

i'm articulate and well informed, thanks

3.  Several egregious spelling errors in one post.

not an issue

5. Excessive or unnecessary abbreviations that make a post difficult to understand, e.g. AIMspeak, 1337speak.

this is a great example of how antiquated and nonsensical these rules are. "AIMspeak"??? that was a thing for like 7 minutes in 2002

so basically you're just taking issue with

1.  Posting in all lowercase (or all capitalized) letters.

2.  Gross misuse or nonuse[not a word! misspelling, please send warning] of punctuation or paragraphs.

i have spent years on forums in which the default is no caps no punctuation. it has become second nature to me, and it feels natural in enabling a more organic form of communication. this is just a nitpicky little bullshit thing people are going to use to feel validated in disliking me because they find me to be abrasive. it might even become used as an convenient excuse to warn/ban me or whatever, but so be it, they'd have found their nominal reason anyway once they're looking for.

let's just not pretend it has anything to do with:

Posts need to be legible, coherent, and understandable in order to convey useful information.

because my posts are fine, it's the content people find disagreeable

[diopter]

VibeBox: Your opinions are welcome. You obviously have interesting ideas. But you back them up with... nothing. I would like to see some reasoning beyond carelessly and thoughtlessly naming random lock pieces on what you envision a post-Shops metagame would look like.

I myself have a pretty good idea of what it would look like. See this last week's VSL. What do you have? Use logic and reasoning, use examples, use sample decklists, use historical results, use anything mor concrete than your repeated rhetoric!

[VibeBox]

You obviously have interesting ideas. But you back them up with... nothing. I would like to see some reasoning beyond carelessly and thoughtlessly naming random lock pieces on what you envision a post-Shops metagame would look like.

I myself have a pretty good idea of what it would look like. See this last week's VSL. What do you have? Use logic and reasoning, use examples, use sample decklists, use historical results, use anything mor concrete than your repeated rhetoric!

i'll spell this out one more time
my claim is that workshops is oppressive, that it's goal is to have an non-interactive game, that the meta is warped around it.
instead of making any effort to refute this you used a diversion tactic. you demanded i speculate on the possibilities of a cardpool that is so vast we can never know what reactions it will have to changes. then you attack that speculation (which i shouldn't even have indulged you with) instead of laying out a case that my claim is untrue.

also, you're once again claiming definitively that 3 weeks of vsl play has shown you a complete picture of this hypothetical meta, when no one in thier right mind would claim vsl is representative of anything other than a funsies invitational tournament.

if you don't want me to act dismissively toward you and refuse to engage in the depth you desire, you have to be making reasonable and coherent arguments yourself. i'm already wasting enough time mired down in slapfights where people are more interested in "winning arguments" than exploring ideas

[JarofFortune]

5. Excessive or unnecessary abbreviations that make a post difficult to understand, e.g. AIMspeak, 1337speak.

this is a great example of how antiquated and nonsensical these rules are. "AIMspeak"??? that was a thing for like 7 minutes in 2002

It's nonsensical to ask people to have tidy posts with good grammar?

so basically you're just taking issue with

1.  Posting in all lowercase (or all capitalized) letters.

2.  Gross misuse or nonuse[not a word! misspelling, please send warning] of punctuation or paragraphs.

i have spent years on forums in which the default is no caps no punctuation. it has become second nature to me, and it feels natural in enabling a more organic form of communication. this is just a nitpicky little bullshit thing people are going to use to feel validated in disliking me because they find me to be abrasive. it might even become used as an convenient excuse to warn/ban me or whatever, but so be it, they'd have found their nominal reason anyway once they're looking for.

No one is nitpicking here. No offense, but your post in the middle of this page was such a disorganized mess that I could not tell what you were even trying to argue, much less what your argument was.

let's just not pretend it has anything to do with:

Posts need to be legible, coherent, and understandable in order to convey useful information.

because my posts are fine, it's the content people find disagreeable

Your posts would be fine if you would just make them coherent and somewhat structured. No one is pointing out your post style to bash you because they dislike your arguments, they are pointing out the structure of your posts because they are very hard to understand.

i'll spell this out one more time
my claim is that workshops is oppressive, that it's goal is to have an non-interactive game, that the meta is warped around it.

By what metric are you saying that workshops is oppressive? You have given no data or descriptive examples, and then go on to list some hypothetical metagame with shopless tangle wire decks that have 4 mindbreak trap.  

when no one in thier right mind would claim vsl is representative of anything other than a funsies invitational tournament.

The vsl may have a very inbred meta that is not representative of paper vintage, put it still does have a clearly defined meta. The only thing you've shown us so far is a vague picture of a metagame where the remaining decks take very questionable measures to keep storm in check.

lets see null rod is not seeing much play right now, mostly because shops is better at locking things down and will bash with golems anyway

Shops being the best prison deck has nothing to do with the amount of play null rod sees.  It would be ridiculous to think that Null rod, a single card, could hope to replicate the function of the entire shop deck. If it could, there would be almost no reason to play shops.

[VibeBox]

your post in the middle of this page was such a disorganized mess that I could not tell what you were even trying to argue, much less what your argument was.

it's like 9 lines and two paragraphs long. you either couldn't parse it because you didn't want to and found it easier to write off as "incoherent" or have bigger problems than my posts

By what metric are you saying that workshops is oppressive? You have given no data or descriptive examples,

i have given multiple descriptive examples!
as for data, it's not hard to look at meta breakdowns and see that shops is by far the most played deck, and that it possibly makes up as much as 25% of the field

and then go on to list some hypothetical metagame with shopless tangle wire decks that have 4 mindbreak trap.  
...
The only thing you've shown us so far is a vague picture of a metagame where the remaining decks take very questionable measures to keep storm in check.

OH MY GOD, DUDE!
because someone else chose to bring up this mythical meta instead of engaging on the real point. that's not even something i wanted to be discussing, but if i don't i get accused of "not backing up my claims" (when it has nothing to do with my claims) and if i do engage on it have to deal with shit like this.

Shops being the best prison deck has nothing to do with the amount of play null rod sees.  It would be ridiculous to think that Null rod, a single card, could hope to replicate the function of the entire shop deck. If it could, there would be almost no reason to play shops.

a.) i disagree, null rod decks are bad because of how much better shops is at the same goal
b.) we'll never know who's right about that because this is all moot since wotc doesn't care about vintage balance and will never restrict $hop$ because the people who shelled out for them would likely be pissed enough to have at least some of them quit in disgust
c.) you're attacking a bunch of speculation about a meta that will never exist instead of making any case that shops isn't uninteractive and format warping

but i'm the one who won't bring sound arguments, uh huh.  

The vsl may have a very inbred meta that is not representative of paper vintage, put it still does have a clearly defined meta.

a meta that has little to no bearing on this discussion, which is why it's hilarious i've been dragged into it but i'll be the one perceived to be "derailing threads" when all i basically had to say was "gee vsl sure is fun, look at all the cool stuff happening without workshops stinking up the place"

[diopter]

VibeBox: bile aside, a better attempt at a reasoned argument.

Still way off the mark:
- saying workshops are oppressive (actually very true) but not willing to consider the alternative (infestation of combo and/or endless blue mirrors, which is basically what history and logic point to).
- not recognizing that the things Shops punish and oppress are decks not willing to play basic land and dudes or other ways to win small
- recognizing that the VSL is a data point showing what a Shopless metagame might look like, without recognizing how awful it would be for Belcher to show up in real Vintage in those proportions
- somehow thinking that the combo and all-blue mirrors of the VSL is cool

[VibeBox]

- saying workshops are oppressive (actually very true) but not willing to consider the alternative (infestation of combo and/or endless blue mirrors, which is basically what history and logic point to).

"not willing to consider" is a lie. i have considered that there are possible trade-offs and dangers to a meta with a weakened shops. just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i'm "way off the mark" as you so authoritatively claim that "history and logic" support you in.

i'm kind of astounded to see the same bogus argument vintage players have to fight against, and the vsl has debunked to many people, used to defend a format warping deck. you're litterally just saying "but but but.....nothing but a turn1 kill hellscape everywhere!!!"

- not recognizing that the things Shops punish and oppress are decks not willing to play basic land and dudes or other ways to win small

once again, i do recognize it.
you however, fail to recognize that that shops is not the only possible deck to serve this role!  that's a point i've already made and you refused to acknowledge it, instead demanding that i speculate on a fantasy meta so you can attack those instead of the base claim.

- recognizing that the VSL is a data point showing what a Shopless metagame might look like,

ONE SINGLE datapoint, and a tiny one at that, yet you're treating it like it's some damning case.

 

without recognizing how awful it would be for Belcher to show up in real Vintage in those proportions

i play against belcher constantly online ever since people's hammer debuted, and you ARE going to be seeing more of it because it's a real deck whether you acknowledge that or not.
i've noticed it's often piloted by people new to vintage too, probably because of the publicity, but also because not everyone shares your tastes. i'm included in that. i find it cool and fun and i enjoy playing with and against it.

- somehow thinking that the combo and all-blue mirrors of the VSL is cool

that's a matter of personal taste. so do you have a point other than taking a cheap shot?

[JACO]

By what metric are you saying that workshops is oppressive? You have given no data or descriptive examples,

i have given multiple descriptive examples!
as for data, it's not hard to look at meta breakdowns and see that shops is by far the most played deck, and that it possibly makes up as much as 25% of the field

The reason you're being asked for a metric is to back up your claims that Workshop are oppressive, by any measure. Are Workshop decks of any flavor dominating the Vintage metagame in the USA at large? No. Are they dominating on the East Coast of the USA? No. Are they dominating in Europe? No. It would help if you first explain what you think "oppressive" means in relation to Vintage tournament performance, and then cite metagame breakdowns of large scale tournaments where Workshops are dominating (let alone being "the most played deck"). This is of course aside from the fact that the makeup of a given tournament field does not equate to the performance of given decks or archetypes in those tournaments (you would be looking at match win percentage, Top 8/Top 4 penetration as a percentage of the deck's entrance numbers, etc.).

Workshops are not the only strategy that seek to rob the opponent of interaction. This is what makes up many of the most powerful strategies in every constructed format of Magic's history when the tools are available in a given format. Likewise, there are many things that push other cards and strategies out of Vintage, Legacy, and every constructed format. The strongest and most efficient cards or interactions tend to do that (ie. the cream rises to the top). Workshops, Null Rods, and Force of Wills are only a few of the things that help to contain some of the incredibly busted things that would regularly happen in Vintage if those tools did not exist to constrain them. To me, and I suspect most of the people who regularly play and love Vintage, this is a feature, not a defect. Vintage is a chance to play the most unfair cards in Magic's history, which is what attracts most people to it (including everyone who is playing in the Vintage Super League, to draw this slowly back around on topic). It has been said thousands of times before, and will be said thousands of times after, but other formats like Standard and Limited are the home of "fair and balanced" decks, and midrange battlefield engagements galore.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion in this thread or any other that you've seemingly polluted on TheManaDrain, it would help if you follow the forum rules regarding writing posts, and then present rational arguments backed up with a shred of tangible evidence, rather than wild generalizations. This will help articulate whatever it is you're trying to convey in a given thread, which is what basically everybody has been trying to tell you.

[JarofFortune]

your post in the middle of this page was such a disorganized mess that I could not tell what you were even trying to argue, much less what your argument was.

it's like 9 lines and two paragraphs long. you either couldn't parse it because you didn't want to and found it easier to write off as "incoherent" or have bigger problems than my posts

My point still stands. I had to read through your post multiple times until I understood what you were arguing.

By what metric are you saying that workshops is oppressive? You have given no data or descriptive examples,

i have given multiple descriptive examples!
as for data, it's not hard to look at meta breakdowns and see that shops is by far the most played deck, and that it possibly makes up as much as 25% of the field

You might have a point there, except that Workshops is not one deck. Terra Nova plays out much, much differently than Metalworker does. Both are completely different decks than Stax, Shop Aggro, or Martello.  

What are these multiple descriptive examples? You've just said the pillar affects deckbuilding, which is true, but not descriptive, and a singular example.

and then go on to list some hypothetical metagame with shopless tangle wire decks that have 4 mindbreak trap.  
...
The only thing you've shown us so far is a vague picture of a metagame where the remaining decks take very questionable measures to keep storm in check.

OH MY GOD, DUDE!
because someone else chose to bring up this mythical meta instead of engaging on the real point. that's not even something i wanted to be discussing, but if i don't i get accused of "not backing up my claims" (when it has nothing to do with my claims) and if i do engage on it have to deal with shit like this.

Uh, you were the one who created your idea of a post-shop meta with Thalia and more Null Rod. It is very relevant to your argument and claims; I have no idea why you think it's being used as a distraction.

Shops being the best prison deck has nothing to do with the amount of play null rod sees.  It would be ridiculous to think that Null rod, a single card, could hope to replicate the function of the entire shop deck. If it could, there would be almost no reason to play shops.

a.) i disagree, null rod decks are bad because of how much better shops is at the same goal
b.) we'll never know who'd right about that because this is all moot since wotc doesn't care about vintage balance and will never restrict $hop$ because the people who shelled out for them would likely be pissed enough to have at least some of them quit in disgust
c.) you're attacking a bunch of speculation about a meta that will never exist instead of making any case that shops isn't uninteractive and format warping

but i'm the one who won't bring sound arguments, uh huh.  

a. What are you talking about? You literally ignored my argument and just said, "I disagree". Null Rod is not, I repeat, is not meant to be a one card hard lock in any deck. No such card does that, which is why you see entire decks devoted to locking out the opponent instead. Additionally, Delver, a deck that would be considered to be part of the null rod pillar(as inflexible as the pillar idea is), rarely runs more than two null rods(and usually zero), because it can typically outdraw the most-commonly played decks that null rod is good against, thus it has no need to be an actual null rod deck. Meanwhile, Merfolk and Bug, decks that actually do run null rod, have been somewhat pushed out by Delver. Shops has and nothing to do with this.

b. Losing a bunch of players, especially in that fashion, would be horrible for the format.  

c. That's because it's kind of hard to understand which part of your argument you want me to address given the style of your posts. I addressed your claims to shops being oppressive earlier in this post by pointing out that shops is not one deck. As for being format warping, every deck to beat in any format is format warping to an extent. That is why people use sideboards. Shops is not oppressively format warping. Shops and blue with its new counterspells might be working in tandem to keep down storm, and shops alone may be keeping down belcher, but other than that I don't think you have an argument.

The vsl may have a very inbred meta that is not representative of paper vintage, put it still does have a clearly defined meta.

a meta that has little to no bearing on this discussion, which is why it's hilarious i've been dragged into it but i'll be the one perceived to be "derailing threads" when all i basically had to say was "gee vsl sure is fun, look at all the cool stuff happening without workshops stinking up the place"

No, you pointed out the VSL meta as a useless example, despite the fact that it is still a better example of a shopless meta than the quickly thought out one you provided.


Where to start:

- saying workshops are oppressive (actually very true) but not willing to consider the alternative (infestation of combo and/or endless blue mirrors, which is basically what history and logic point to).

"not willing to consider" is a lie. i have considered that there are possible trade-offs and dangers to a meta with a weakened shops. just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i'm "way off the mark" as you so authoritatively claim that "history and logic" support you in.

No, you said other decks would replace the spot shops has in the metagame. Then you said that your mentioning of such decks was completely irrelevant to your argument, but now you bring it up again.

i'm kind of astounded to see the same bogus argument vintage players have to fight against, and the vsl has debunked to many people, used to defend a format warping deck. you're litterally just saying "but but but.....nothing but a turn1 kill hellscape everywhere!!!"

And what everyone is saying is that Workshop decks are a huge factor in preventing that. I don't even know what you're grasping at anymore. You're just throwing in new arguments unnecessarily for no good reason.

- not recognizing that the things Shops punish and oppress are decks not willing to play basic land and dudes or other ways to win small

once again, i do recognize it.
you however, fail to recognize that that shops is not the only possible deck to serve this role!  that's a point i've already made and you refused to acknowledge it, instead demanding that i speculate on a fantasy meta so you can attack those instead of the base claim.

If you are once again claiming that shops is not the only deck that can serve the role of keeping down fast combo, then WHY are you in the same paragraph saying that you won't speculate on a fantasy meta? The decks you listed as ones that could replace shops are by definition part of a fantasy meta!

[The Atog Lord]

IV.  Bad Writing

i'm articulate and well informed, thanks

This should be -- "I'm articulate and well-informed. Thank you."

3.  Several egregious spelling errors in one post.

not an issue

The above is not a sentence. Please use sentences to convey your ideas.

5. Excessive or unnecessary abbreviations that make a post difficult to understand, e.g. AIMspeak, 1337speak.

this is a great example of how antiquated and nonsensical these rules are. "AIMspeak"??? that was a thing for like 7 minutes in 2002

You are more than welcome to go to a forum devoid of such antiquated and nonsensical rules.

i have spent years on forums in which the default is no caps no punctuation. it has become second nature to me, and it feels natural in enabling a more organic form of communication. this is just a nitpicky little bullshit thing people are going to use to feel validated in disliking me because they find me to be abrasive. it might even become used as an convenient excuse to warn/ban me or whatever, but so be it, they'd have found their nominal reason anyway once they're looking for.

Here on The Mana Drain, we hold our communication to a high standard. We believe that writing well is reflective of thinking well. No one is making you be here. You are more than welcome to leave. You are also more than welcome to stay and abide by our rules. But you are not welcome to ignore the very rules that make this website what it is, while continuing to post here to grouse about them. The rules have been here much longer than you.

because my posts are fine, it's the content people find disagreeable

This should be -- "Because my posts are fine; it is the content people find disagreeable."

[diophan]

When Rich Shay has looked through his thesis so many times he can find no more errors, he unleashes his editing wrath upon TMD.

[Stormanimagus]

I feel as though I may have set this whole debate off with my initial comment that VSL's deck diversity and representation of the ACTUAL Vintage metagame was very lacking. I apologize for doing this. Let me simplify my position and explain. I think that the VSL is an opportunity for long-time Vintage elite to sling around the cards they love and have fun playing Vintage. This is definitely a consideration in deck choice. People often forget that fun is a big part of this game and if it is fun to pilot blue belcher then players are gonna do it if nothing huge is at stake otherwise. I will admit that I, myself, have piloted TPS in the past for this very reason, knowing full well that it wasn't a great choice for a tournament. However, I do think that the VSL players are doing a disservice to the community by not representing key decks in the format and also representing them with suboptimal play (I'm looking at you dredge pilots from the last round of the VSL *facepalm*). It would be nice to see some killer Shop, Oath, Dredge, and even Hate-bear pilots on the VSL shake things up a bit. I hope this happens in future weeks.

-Storm

[VibeBox]

Are Workshop decks of any flavor dominating the Vintage metagame in the USA at large? No. Are they dominating on the East Coast of the USA? No. Are they dominating in Europe? No. It would help if you first explain what you think "oppressive" means in relation to Vintage tournament performance,

i have explained it. i feel that it's an over represented deck that narrows the scope of possibility within the format.
part of the problem is that i'm talking about what is absent in it's presence, and that's something than can not really be proven or disproven.

and then cite metagame breakdowns of large scale tournaments where Workshops are dominating (let alone being "the most played deck"). This is of course aside from the fact that the makeup of a given tournament field does not equate to the performance of given decks or archetypes in those tournaments (you would be looking at match win percentage, Top 8/Top 4 penetration as a percentage of the deck's entrance numbers, etc.).

most of that info is not very easy to come by, and if it weren't that is an unreasonable demand for statistics in a casual conversation about vintage.
the fact that you wont even concede that it's the most played deck belies that your being facetious. a simple check of any popular metagame site would should faaar more shops than any other deck.

Workshops are not the only strategy that seek to rob the opponent of interaction.

i never said it was. i'm just surprised to see so many people get so upset and jump to the defense of a deck that's so good at it.

Vintage is a chance to play the most unfair cards in Magic's history, which is what attracts most people to it

which is why i'm surprised to see widespread acceptance of a deck that sets out to stop you from doing any of them from the get go.
again though this is a matter of personal taste, and i'm not the one attacking someone on their personal feelings about cardboard.

If you want to have a reasonable discussion in this thread or any other that you've seemingly polluted on TheManaDrain, it would help if you follow the forum rules regarding writing posts, and then present rational arguments backed up with a shred of tangible evidence, rather than wild generalizations.

"polluting" haha yeah, but im supposed to engage with you in good faith  

My point still stands. I had to read through your post multiple times until I understood what you were arguing.

i concede that that post in particular was kinda ugly but i think its hardly representative of my average post in structure, and ironically looks like that because i made the mistake of appeasing a diversion argument.
if i intended to keep posting here i would have had the courtesy to be a little more cognizant of structuring in the future since you appear so earnest

You might have a point there, except that Workshops is not one deck. Terra Nova plays out much, much differently than Metalworker does. Both are completely different decks than Stax, Shop Aggro, or Martello.  

that's actually a good point, and were we to continue this it would lead to the real root of the problem which is the recurring black lotus that's not restricted, alas...

What are these multiple descriptive examples? You've just said the pillar affects deckbuilding, which is true, but not descriptive, and a singular example.

that it seeks to stop interaction
that it is almost a quarter of the field
that it pushes out other decks
you either aren't reading what i write or dismiss it offhand, either way why keep engaging with me if you seriously feel zero common ground can be found? it's you guys with this type stuff dragging these things out, not me, but w/e

Uh, you were the one who created your idea of a post-shop meta with Thalia and more Null Rod. It is very relevant to your argument and claims; I have no idea why you think it's being used as a distraction.

I ONLY DID SO BECAUSE IT WAS DEMANDED I DO SO TO "PROVE" SHOPS WAS NECESSARY which is absurd.
if i turned the tables and used the same cheap tactic yall would be all over me for it
"prove to me now that workshops is THE ONLY way to stop rampant combo. prove no other combination of 75 in the vintage cardpool is viable in this purpose"

a. What are you talking about? You literally ignored my argument and just said, "I disagree". Null Rod is not, I repeat, is not meant to be a one card hard lock in any deck. No such card does that,

i said i disagree that there is no correlation between prevelance of shops, and viability of null rod as an anchor. i never said it was a single card lock, i said it was a tool. you're just constantly putting words in my mouth and shifting the argument.

Shops has and nothing to do with this.

show me you're fucking in depth thesis to support this or have it dismissed as "wild generalizations"
oops, forgot, that only works against me

b. Losing a bunch of players, especially in that fashion, would be horrible for the format.

 
grats, you stated the obvious when i never contested otherwise. gj. 7 points

No, you pointed out the VSL meta as a useless example, despite the fact that it is still a better example of a shopless meta than the quickly thought out one you provided.

show me where i said useless

No, you said other decks would replace the spot shops has in the metagame. Then you said that your mentioning of such decks was completely irrelevant to your argument, but now you bring it up again.

because you're ridiculous for demanding i know what those deck will be. it's an intillectually dishonest tactic that paid off for you big time the moment i indulged it.

And what everyone is saying is that Workshop decks are a huge factor in preventing that. I don't even know what you're grasping at anymore. You're just throwing in new arguments unnecessarily for no good reason.

it's the same argument i already made, that there is faulty assumption that shops is some kind of magical savior singlehandedly holding the format together.

If you are once again claiming that shops is not the only deck that can serve the role of keeping down fast combo, then WHY are you in the same paragraph saying that you won't speculate on a fantasy meta? The decks you listed as ones that could replace shops are by definition part of a fantasy meta!

because it's a huge card pool with tons of tools and people smarter than me will find new ways to combat them. just because i didn't paint you a picture you dont find adequate doesn't mean no such possibilities exist.

When Rich Shay has looked through his thesis so many times he can find no more errors, can't let go of personal feelings from another thread, he unleashes his editing wrath upon TMD.

fix'd

uh oh, wait, thats some 1337 speak isn't it? have i become some kind of cyber-punk? am i a cyber-bully? i better watch some dr. phil to find out.

You are also more than welcome to stay and abide by our rules. But you are not welcome to ignore the very rules that make this website what it is

no, im obviously not welcome to stay here, that's been obvious from the get go, and it's real cute that you wanna cling to the pretense that this is about "level of discourse"
i suggest you just give the people what they want and ban me now
can't say i'll be particularly sad about it since "what it  is" is a forum with outdated software, haphazard organization, a very hostile (and small) userbase, and not much actual deck discussion.

it is, however just about the only place for vintage talk, which is why i came in the first place. for that much at least, i thank you for trying to provide it

while continuing to post here to grouse about them. The rules have been here much longer than you.[/color][/b]

this is the first time i've mentioned them
this is also conveniently the first time they've been trod out against me, even though i knew it would come to this from day one and my tenure here would be brief.
i was content to just chit chat about cardboard until ulterior motives brought about this inevitable moment, but obv the zeitgeist here is does not find that tenable

consider that i post on a great deal of websites, and this is literally the first time i've had complaints about readability of my posts or claims of "incoherence"
that says more about the atmosphere here than it does about me, and tbh it's why there's very little activity here, despite a surge in vintage interest

[The Atog Lord]

VibeBox, you are not special. You are not being singled out for anything. Everyone on this board is expected to be able to operate his or her shift key. You're being asked to follow the same rules as everyone else.

If you would like to be a part of this community, please post in a way that follows the tenets of proper English. This includes use of capital letters where appropriate.

I don't really care what your politics are -- this isn't the place to discuss politics. In fact, I explicitly refrained from saying anything about this in the Rome thread.

I do care about the Vintage community. When you write using poor grammar, you are doing a disservice to everyone trying to read these boards. They need to spend extra effort to parse what you are trying to say. For their sake, please use your shift key.

[VibeBox]

You are not being singled out for anything.

oh no, perish the thought! you go through all user's posts with a fine comb to make a spectacle of it, i'm sure.

I don't really care what your politics are -- this isn't the place to discuss politics. In fact, I explicitly refrained from saying anything about this in the Rome thread.

haha, ok whatever you need to tell yourself man

I do care about the Vintage community. When you write using poor grammar, you are doing a disservice to everyone trying to read these boards. They need to spend extra effort to parse what you are trying to say. For their sake, please use your shift key.[/color][/b]

This is a small concession that I would have made with no qualms for a community that i found otherwise enjoyable. It is only a minor inconvenience to diverge from usual, and deeply engrained, posting style, which as i said have only ever had people here voice ANY complaints about. It is likely because of the attitude of being Special and better than that is rampant on this forum, as evident by the magnitude of dogpiling once i started forcefully voicing contrary opinions. I understand the need to project that character flaw onto me though, it's ok.

seriously, just drop the pretense and ban me like you've wanted to, and they want you to, because yall are just working up my anxiety with your inability to just let something go and move on

Participation on TMD is voluntary - nobody is forcing you to post here. You are banned from TMD for 7 days for Mod Sass - if you grace us with your presence in the future, do not post in this thread again. This is a Full Warning.

-Godder

[dwpoker]

I feel as though I may have set this whole debate off with my initial comment that VSL's deck diversity and representation of the ACTUAL Vintage metagame was very lacking. I apologize for doing this. Let me simplify my position and explain. I think that the VSL is an opportunity for long-time Vintage elite to sling around the cards they love and have fun playing Vintage. This is definitely a consideration in deck choice. People often forget that fun is a big part of this game and if it is fun to pilot blue belcher then players are gonna do it if nothing huge is at stake otherwise. I will admit that I, myself, have piloted TPS in the past for this very reason, knowing full well that it wasn't a great choice for a tournament. However, I do think that the VSL players are doing a disservice to the community by not representing key decks in the format and also representing them with suboptimal play (I'm looking at you dredge pilots from the last round of the VSL *facepalm*). It would be nice to see some killer Shop, Oath, Dredge, and even Hate-bear pilots on the VSL shake things up a bit. I hope this happens in future weeks.

-Storm

What "suboptimal play" are you referring to from me? You said "pilots" so that would imply you are referring to both myself and Tom. I didn't see his match so I don't know if he made mistakes, but I assure you he knows what he is doing and is not doing a disservice to anyone. If he made a mistake, it happens. No one plays perfectly.

[evouga]

Tom punted a game last week by passing up a chance to Chain+Therapy a Grafdigger's Cage. As you say, mistakes are going to happen to anyone and I'm sure playing on camera adds all kind of pressure, but on the other hand I agree that a more experienced pilot would have been less likely to make that mistake.

I think you've played the deck well, including against Steve, where you simply got extremely unlucky never drawing dredgers. The only mistake I noticed was conceding after the mulligan to oblivion: Steve's deck is relatively soft vs dredge and if you had drawn a Bazaar in the first couple of turns, could still have won the game.

[nedleeds]

"More open format"?! Where people will soon sideboard 3 Electrickery, 3 Slice&Dice, 3 Stifle,  3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 REB (because they already maxed out the Pyroblast in the main).
Sounds healthy to me.

You'll never get through to some people so don't try. All the delver on delver just feels like legacy, which is in an awful spot lately with a certain 4 of occupying ~80% of all lists. there is some interesting magic being played but hopefully having Fate Reforged will get the league out of the Pyro/Delver circle jerk. Keep in mind many of the players were time crunched, and they were essentially asked to play a lame duck format (Cruise restricted, Gifts unrestricted, but no Fate Reforged).

[Space_Stormy]

"More open format"?! Where people will soon sideboard 3 Electrickery, 3 Slice&Dice, 3 Stifle,  3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 REB (because they already maxed out the Pyroblast in the main).
Sounds healthy to me.

You'll never get through to some people so don't try. All the delver on delver just feels like legacy, which is an awful spot lately with a certain 4 of occupying ~80% of all lists. there is some interesting magic being played but hopefully having Fate Reforged will get the league out of the Pyro/Delver circle jerk. Keep in mind many of the players were time crunched, and they were essentially asked to play a lame duck format (Cruise restricted, Gifts unrestricted, but no Fate Reforged).

That is an excelent point.  The ability to play with mentor would have changed a lot up to be honest and the lack of any Gifts Ungiven is really a time constraint issue since people didn't have time to test their Gifts Ungiven decks.  This week being week 4 should be very different!

[desolutionist]

Im having difficulty mapping out the arguments being made.  Of all the text over the last two pages I'm getting:

P1-Shops make up 25% of the metagame
c-Therefore Shops are oppressive

Missing is the premise "Decks that make up 25% of the metagame are oppressive", which I disagree with.  Decks that make up 25% of the metagame make the meta smaller, leaving opportunity for rogue decks to know what they're most likely up against; see R/G beats and the big time success it has had at large events saturated with Workshops.

Additionally, I see that Workshops is only 20% of the online metagame, which is 5% less than the suggested criteria for being an oppressive deck.

[nedleeds]

However, I do think that the VSL players are doing a disservice to the community by not representing key decks in the format and also representing them with suboptimal play (I'm looking at you dredge pilots from the last round of the VSL *facepalm*). It would be nice to see some killer Shop, Oath, Dredge, and even Hate-bear pilots on the VSL shake things up a bit. I hope this happens in future weeks.

-Storm

Pot. Meet kettle.

I watched your vintage stream for approximately 60 seconds and you had already made an awful play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1kphOunG-Q&feature=youtu.be

You play the wrong land on turn 1. If you play the Noble off the Bayou, you can play Bob and Wasteland on turn 2. Instead you "sub-optimally" fetch up a Savannah for the turn 1 Hierarch.

So please reconsider complaining about the small mistakes players make during the course of the free Tuesday night entertainment they are providing for you. I make errors as well while playing Magic. We all do. Sometimes I'm locked in and I don't for long stretches. Sometimes I drop to drink copious amounts of beer after making a couple of bad ones.

Regards,
Sean O'Brien