Samoht
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« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2014, 11:09:42 pm » |
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Case in point: the landstill players who cut Time Walk (because a cantrip isn't as valuable as something else in that slot),
Do you have more information about this? I find the decision surprising -- certainly I can imagine situations where excluding Time Walk is correct (you can't reliably generate 1U, or expect you won't be able to play it (i.e. vs shops), or its inclusion turns on opposing countermagic that would otherwise be dead, etc) but in most situations by excluding Time Walk for lack of slots you are saying, among other things, that you would rather play with a 60 instead of a 59-card deck, which seems dubious. Josh Potucek was a big fan of cutting Time Walk because he felt it doesn't really do anything for the deck. I disagree(d) with him. The times that you can cast Time Walk after casting something like Jace or Crucible is pretty huge. With the addition of Dack Fayden, it's even stronger. For me, I think the card has a slot. It's also important to value it appropriately however - I often pitch it to FoW/Misd if pressured to early. It's not as backbreaking for Landstill as say a deck with Tinker, Will, or Oath, etc. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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Will
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« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2014, 12:02:38 am » |
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Case in point: the landstill players who cut Time Walk (because a cantrip isn't as valuable as something else in that slot),
Do you have more information about this? I find the decision surprising -- certainly I can imagine situations where excluding Time Walk is correct (you can't reliably generate 1U, or expect you won't be able to play it (i.e. vs shops), or its inclusion turns on opposing countermagic that would otherwise be dead, etc) but in most situations by excluding Time Walk for lack of slots you are saying, among other things, that you would rather play with a 60 instead of a 59-card deck, which seems dubious. Josh Potucek was a big fan of cutting Time Walk because he felt it doesn't really do anything for the deck. I disagree(d) with him. The times that you can cast Time Walk after casting something like Jace or Crucible is pretty huge. With the addition of Dack Fayden, it's even stronger. For me, I think the card has a slot. It's also important to value it appropriately however - I often pitch it to FoW/Misd if pressured to early. It's not as backbreaking for Landstill as say a deck with Tinker, Will, or Oath, etc. I think it's also very important to mention that a deck such as Landstill does not have any mana acceleration aside from Lotus and 1-2 Moxen. Time Walk often functions as an accelerant in the early game by allowing you to play an extra land. Does anyone know who won today's matches and if they are/will be on YouTube? |
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The artist formerly known as Wmagzoo7
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable" - Seneca
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Samoht
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Posts: 1392
Team RST
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« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2014, 01:06:15 am » |
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Case in point: the landstill players who cut Time Walk (because a cantrip isn't as valuable as something else in that slot),
Do you have more information about this? I find the decision surprising -- certainly I can imagine situations where excluding Time Walk is correct (you can't reliably generate 1U, or expect you won't be able to play it (i.e. vs shops), or its inclusion turns on opposing countermagic that would otherwise be dead, etc) but in most situations by excluding Time Walk for lack of slots you are saying, among other things, that you would rather play with a 60 instead of a 59-card deck, which seems dubious. Josh Potucek was a big fan of cutting Time Walk because he felt it doesn't really do anything for the deck. I disagree(d) with him. The times that you can cast Time Walk after casting something like Jace or Crucible is pretty huge. With the addition of Dack Fayden, it's even stronger. For me, I think the card has a slot. It's also important to value it appropriately however - I often pitch it to FoW/Misd if pressured to early. It's not as backbreaking for Landstill as say a deck with Tinker, Will, or Oath, etc. I think it's also very important to mention that a deck such as Landstill does not have any mana acceleration aside from Lotus and 1-2 Moxen. Time Walk often functions as an accelerant in the early game by allowing you to play an extra land. Does anyone know who won today's matches and if they are/will be on YouTube? I know Efro, Randy, Rich, Pikula, and Steve won. |
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 01:13:27 am by Samoht »
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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Samoht
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« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2014, 10:45:34 am » |
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My predictions are comming true  i must be psychic! Game 3, Shay vs. Martell I think Martell should have thoughtseized the mana crypt away. Particularly if he had mental misstep in hand. He definitely didn't have Misstep or he'd have fired it on Ancestral. He also has to beat Notion Thief. The odds of Rich drawing a 2nd there is absurdly low. Tom made the right decision but got punished by variance. Welcome to magic. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #94 on: September 03, 2014, 11:20:33 am » |
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My predictions are comming true i must be psychic! Game 3, Shay vs. Martell I think Martell should have thoughtseized the mana crypt away. Particularly if he had mental misstep in hand. He definitely didn't have Misstep or he'd have fired it on Ancestral. He also has to beat Notion Thief. The odds of Rich drawing a 2nd there is absurdly low. Tom made the right decision but got punished by variance. Welcome to magic. I think Tom was right to take Notion Thief. His deck really struggles against that card. I drew another one, but the odds of that happening were low. |
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Samoht
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« Reply #95 on: September 03, 2014, 12:11:18 pm » |
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As i see it, taking mana crypt would slow rich's hand down making him unable to cast notion thief for a few turns. It also means that dack fayden (I don't know how many rich plays) + welder would not be as good. Taking mana crypt also, at least to me, indicates that he can deal with the ancestral. And i would think rich would wait for back up before firing the ancestral. It also means that rich cannot play time walk + something else on his turn 2. Besides that, less mana makes the potential extra draws from ancestral less useful, and makes expensive top decks worse. I am not taking his topdecked notion thief into consideration here, because Martell had no way of knowing what was on the top of rich's deck. Thus i think taking mana crypt disables rich's hand more than taking the blow out card  I will however agree that it is a tough thoughtseize. Such a great hand. By taking Thief, Rich's hand is actually quite poor aside from Ancestral. He also stops a card that he flat out can not beat. If he just delays NT, he shrinks his window considerably because he has to win the game before it resolves. The odds of Rich drawing into a second is very low and Tom can beat a resolved Ancestral or Welder pretty easily with his deck. Mana Crypt is a two edged sword against Gush Tendrils as the deck really excels at 5-6 Storm tendrils w/o Will which Rich was actively combating with Nihil Spellbomb. If I was in Tom's shoes I'd make the exact same play 100 times out of 100. It might not win every time but you the odds are well in his favor. It's akin to poker. If I'm 70-30 to win a hand I'm betting/raising/shoving and will live with the consequences because more often than not I'm up. |
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Char? Char you! I like the play.
-Randy Bueller
I swear I'll burn the city down to show you the light.
The best part of believe is the lie
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2014, 12:29:24 pm » |
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Tom, of course, cannot know the top card of my deck. If he knew a second Notion Thief was coming, then taking Crypt would make sense. But taking Mana Crypt and leaving me with Timewalk, Thief, and Ancestral in hand doesn't seem especially convincing. Notion Thief is crushing against his deck, and making sure that Thief doesn't arrive is correct. I'd much rather resolve Notion Thief against Tom's deck than resolve Ancestral. It's not close.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Smmenen
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« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2014, 10:33:54 pm » |
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In about an hour I'm going to live restream my match last night, but from my perspective, with explanations of my plays: http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen |
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mrYoda
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« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2014, 04:28:17 am » |
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This is the best thing that has ever happened in the history of MtG broadcasts. Been a long time lurker but finally registered to say this. Hope Randy organizes more of these.
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MTGFan
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« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2014, 06:06:24 am » |
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In about an hour I'm going to live restream my match last night, but from my perspective, with explanations of my plays: http://www.twitch.tv/smmenenIs there any chance you could put these up on Youtube? I can't access twitch re-broadcasts from my IPhone and it is much more convenient to watch these in that way. Randy put his versions of these videos up on his Youtube account. |
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oshkoshhaitsyosh
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« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2014, 06:57:41 am » |
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What he said...not being able to view these via smartphone is the worst. This is why I haven't been viewing.
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Team Josh Potucek
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H
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« Reply #101 on: September 04, 2014, 07:05:28 am » |
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Randy has already been uploading these on to YouTube. Just search for Vintage Super League, that's how I found them.
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"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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evouga
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« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2014, 09:28:51 am » |
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I *love* that Randy is organizing these tourneys. One bit of constructive criticism: the streams would be more enjoyable to watch if the production values were slightly higher. Chris's voice was garbled and often unintelligible for much of match 2; the "Skype beep" could be heard throughout the stream and quickly becomes grating.
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fsecco
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« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2014, 10:32:32 am » |
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But those are issues anyone can have, specially since the players are each in their own houses. My only suggestion would be the hand cams. It makes understanding the matches so much better. I loved Rotisserie draft specially because of that.
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evouga
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« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2014, 02:53:13 pm » |
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I really enjoyed this last set of games, though I thought it poor form that Tom flaked as commentator of the final match, and that the commentators kept complaining about Stephen's slow play.
Is there any way to get Rich or Stephen to serve as a commentator in future rounds? I like that the tournament features a mix of Vintage and non-Vintage pros, but the commentary would be more valuable if at least one of the people had intimate knowledge of the format.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #105 on: September 05, 2014, 09:19:15 pm » |
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I really enjoyed this last set of games, though I thought it poor form that Tom flaked as commentator of the final match, and that the commentators kept complaining about Stephen's slow play.
Is there any way to get Rich or Stephen to serve as a commentator in future rounds? I like that the tournament features a mix of Vintage and non-Vintage pros, but the commentary would be more valuable if at least one of the people had intimate knowledge of the format.
The lack of familiarity with the format in the comments seemed really obvious to me in Steve's match this week. There were a couple times that the commentators just didn't seem to understand the situation. That said I think that overall the matches have been really fun to watch and the commentators are a big part of that. |
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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Will
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« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2014, 12:41:50 am » |
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I feel bad for Tom Martell to be honest. He signed up to have a good time, and showing people vintage. And all he gets is people complaining about him. I still think he is going to loose this tournament, but i think it is awesome that he signed up for it And i perfectly understand why he chose to play what he did. I think he might do a little better once he gets his match against doomsday and storm. Maybe your definition of a good time is much different than mine, but for someone who signed up to have a good time, Tom is not being a great sport. He was obviously tilted pretty hard after both of his losses to the point where he supposedly refused to commentate after losing to Rich. Personally, I dislike the idea of making unspoken rules about what can and cannot be played in a setting such as this. Given the collective talent pool of everyone participating and the amount of publicity this event is receiving (in the Vintage community) I want to see some true innovation and not a collection of pet decks. By creating unspoken rules based upon what is "fun or not fun" the Vintage Super League becomes nothing more than a glorified casual group. He's not showing people Vintage if Workshops and Dredge are frowned upon and thus not at all represented for being "unfun". |
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The artist formerly known as Wmagzoo7
"If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable" - Seneca
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2014, 12:48:21 am » |
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I personally am thankful to Tom, and the other eight players in this event as well. The prizes are minuscule compared to the time commitment. No one signed up for this event on account of a high expected value. Instead, I view peoples' participant in this event as giving something to the community. Every single person in this event has a lot he could be doing with that time, and is opting to spend his time sharing this wonderful format with a very large audience. To criticize Tom or any of the other players for deck choice or not playing a "fun" deck is immature and makes us as the Vintage community look bad. By participating in this tournament, Tom and the others are doing something I feel thankful for.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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fsecco
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« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2014, 10:26:41 am » |
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I personally am thankful to Tom, and the other eight players in this event as well. The prizes are minuscule compared to the time commitment. No one signed up for this event on account of a high expected value. Instead, I view peoples' participant in this event as giving something to the community. Every single person in this event has a lot he could be doing with that time, and is opting to spend his time sharing this wonderful format with a very large audience. To criticize Tom or any of the other players for deck choice or not playing a "fun" deck is immature and makes us as the Vintage community look bad. By participating in this tournament, Tom and the others are doing something I feel thankful for.
Exactly that, Rich. I feel very thankful too. I'm having a lot of fun watching the games. Also, after next week it will be very interesting what everybody decides to play. Specially the ones that are losing, since they will most definitely change lists. |
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evouga
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« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2014, 05:38:41 pm » |
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Stuff i said.
Stuff you said. I would probably not be in the best mood if noone was rooting for me, everyone complained about everything i did *and* i just lost two matches in a row. Honestly, I'm surprised that he hasn't just left. If you agree to do something, then don't show up just because you're in a bad mood, that's immature and poor form in my book. I have nothing against the guy otherwise (id never heard of him before the tourney), but if nobody's rooting for him because of unnecessarily opinionated comments he made earlier in the tourney, I don't feel too bad for him either. |
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Qube
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« Reply #110 on: September 10, 2014, 07:23:31 am » |
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Are the W3 matches already archived? I didn't find them  |
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Man, Gush not only bounces lands, it bounces on and off the restricted list. It's like the DCI's very own superball.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #112 on: September 10, 2014, 09:53:14 am » |
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Adepts/Admins on this website: 8-1
Non-Adepts/Admins on this website: 7-14
I think those figures say a lot about how important familiarity with this format is to being successful at it.
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Meddling Mike posts so loudly that nobody can get a post in edgewise.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
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MTGFan
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« Reply #113 on: September 10, 2014, 09:56:00 am » |
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Adepts/Admins on this website: 8-1
Non-Adepts/Admins on this website: 7-14
I think those figures say a lot about how important familiarity with this format is to being successful at it.
Which is why the Pros favor Draft, Block Constructed, and Standard Constructed over all other formats and actively disdain Modern, Legacy, and Vintage for high stakes tournaments. (Complaining about Modern as a Pro Tour format for example). Familiarity with the format often trumps raw skill in the eternal formats, whereas in Draft/Block/Standard, deck construction skill and play skill trump overall familiarity. |
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evouga
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« Reply #114 on: September 10, 2014, 10:39:21 am » |
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Awesome, can't wait to watch the matches when I get off work.
Is the full VSL schedule posted somewhere?
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wiley
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« Reply #115 on: September 10, 2014, 11:51:50 am » |
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Familiarity with the format often trumps raw skill in the eternal formats, whereas in Draft/Block/Standard, deck construction skill and play skill trump overall familiarity.
I disagree, it is much closer to Draft/Block/Standard are easy (easier) to become familiar with, and only when it is a new format are deck construction and play skill more important than familiarity. Every format has a metagame and general tricks that must be learned, and even Draft/Block/Standard are mostly figured out within a month of release, with only the occasional new tech rising to disrupt the flow (which also happens in older formats). Outside of a format being brand new, familiarity is a vital part of any magic player's skill set. Going into a tournament without it is like being a para-athlete; yes you will still blow away Joe-schmoe, but you will be disadvantaged compared to fully rounded players. |
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Team Arsenal
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2014, 12:51:32 pm » |
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What are the current records after last night? I live on the east coast so I can't watch the stream live.
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #117 on: September 10, 2014, 12:55:37 pm » |
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What are the current records after last night? I live on the east coast so I can't watch the stream live.
3-0Chris Pikula Smmenen 2-1The Atog Lord Efro LSV Randy Buehler 1-2Dave Williams 0-3Bob Maher Josh Utter-Leyton Tom Martell |
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« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 01:07:36 pm by Meddling Mike »
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Meddling Mike posts so loudly that nobody can get a post in edgewise.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
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Smmenen
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« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2014, 02:09:47 pm » |
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What are the current records after last night? I live on the east coast so I can't watch the stream live.
They are all archived on YouTube now! Including my interview! |
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2014, 08:39:38 pm » |
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Meddling Mike posts so loudly that nobody can get a post in edgewise.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
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