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Smmenen
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« Reply #330 on: November 19, 2014, 03:14:28 am » |
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Thank you Rich, and others. I appreciate the kind words.
I'm glad I was able to represent the Vintage community against HoFers and Pros.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #331 on: November 19, 2014, 10:54:30 am » |
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As I recall, someone or other wrote an article when Vintage Masters came to MTGO suggesting that now, finally, the pros would be able to show us old farts how to actually play Vintage correctly. Or something like that. LSV was never involved in the nonsense.
EDIT: While I know you didn't make a conscious effort to play differently, Steve, it sure looked like your deck won games where you did NOT sit back and try to play the control role. You won when you played the usual Delver strategy; land a threat and then protect it with choking countermagic. The two games during the series where you went to the very long game, which was your plan going in, you lost to a complicated countermagic stack that put LSV on top. Is it possible you underestimated the need for your deck to present a clock to win?
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evouga
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« Reply #332 on: November 19, 2014, 11:27:56 am » |
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Congratulations Stephen.
I hope the videos will be uploaded to youtube soon.
I am always a bit puzzled by Randy Buehler's assesments of vintage match ups. He seems to always underestimate the aggro and aggro-control decks.
Also, why is there such a hostility towards the pro players?
These guys obviously care about vintage, they have volunteered to help promote the format.
Seriously, i think everyone should behave a bit more friendly. If you want people to play the format, it is not very wise to insult those who start playing in it.
Some of the pros came in with a lot of arrogance that I (and apparently others) found off-putting. Stuff like claiming that Delver is unplayable in Vintage (!) and that they were finally going to show us Vintage players how to build and play Vintage correctly. |
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #333 on: November 19, 2014, 12:25:08 pm » |
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Stuff like claiming that Delver is unplayable in Vintage (!)
And yet Tom Martell ended up playing delver for the last 3 weeks, which I find hilarious. I'm still happy that pros are playing Vintage though, despite the fact that some come off as arrogant. Congrats to Steve and the rest of the Top 4. |
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The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
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diophan
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« Reply #334 on: November 19, 2014, 12:48:28 pm » |
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Did LSV ever play a forbidden orchard? That was a ton of magic to watch and many things to focus on, and I don't have time to rewatch the matches now, but if not I don't think LSV's sideboard and his approach to playing sideboarded games with his deck makes sense to me. If you're not going to board in the orchards, why are they there? Is he randomly boarding in oath against creatureless decks and wants them there? It's not like he's surprising anyone when decklists are quickly available. I think he should have known based on Steve's playstyle that if the oaths go in the orchards do.
If I just missed the orchards, ignore all this. It was interesting how much LSV mixed up his sideboarding strategy. I agree with Steve that having almost all your wincons answered by cage is suspect. Sure abrupt decay and 1-2 hurkyl's answers it, but misdirection is always a thing when playing Steve.
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:51:38 pm by diophan »
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fsecco
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« Reply #335 on: November 19, 2014, 01:23:55 pm » |
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LSV probably didn't want to play Vault/Key predicting Steve would play Delver with Null Rods. I don't know what other wincon he could have...
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #336 on: November 19, 2014, 01:41:15 pm » |
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It's not like he's surprising anyone when decklists are quickly available. I think he should have known based on Steve's playstyle that if the oaths go in the orchards do.
If I just missed the orchards, ignore all this. It was interesting how much LSV mixed up his sideboarding strategy. I agree with Steve that having almost all your wincons answered by cage is suspect. Sure abrupt decay and 1-2 hurkyl's answers it, but misdirection is always a thing when playing Steve.
According to the post-mortem interview, LSV's sideboard put Steve badly on tilt initially because he was taken completely by surprise. His assumptions about what LSV would bring in were wrong and it cost him at least one game. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #337 on: November 19, 2014, 03:24:25 pm » |
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I wasn't on tilt. I was confused
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #338 on: November 19, 2014, 03:33:12 pm » |
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Totally sweet Vintage this season! It's hard to not root for the home team here. Grats Steve!
I'm just glad LSV finally got over calling anything with Workshops "stax". >.<
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healo
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« Reply #339 on: November 19, 2014, 03:55:58 pm » |
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Firstly, this was an awesome event and I've been watching all the matches with my face attached to my screen devouring knowladge all the time. No need bringing attention anywhere else. I'm a guy who don't get to play Vintage often because nobody playes it where I live, so for me this feels like a Christmas gift. Thanks WotC for VMA, Randy and all participating for this.
Secondly, congratulations to you, Steve, for this big and deserved victory!
Steve, I'd like to ask you the same question Randy asked you in the interview after the finals. I think you didn't get a chance to answer completely.
What you think made you win those matches when you feel like you got outplayed by LSV (I believe you said this, correct me if I'm wrong)?
To me, it seemed like you were trying to win on card advantage most of the time. Just outdrawing LSV and counter every single relevant spell (I'd almost say you were "allin on CA" if that makes any sense at all - playing gushes to discard cards multiple times, prioritizing cantrips where you could put some pressure on, etc...). Was this your go to plan, or was this a reaction due to you being confused as you said by some unusual sideboard choices by LSV? Or is this just a natural thing given by the amount of Gushes/Cruises with all those Preordains, etc...? It certainly seems like this deck is not build to play such a hard control role you've taken here. Of course I might be wrong (I'm probably wrong).
Anyways, it I can't wait for next season!
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 04:00:53 pm by healo »
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Smmenen
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« Reply #340 on: November 19, 2014, 04:25:12 pm » |
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Saying I got outplayed doesn't mean I played badly. I'm proud of a lot of my plays. But I'm never going to outplay LSV. He's one of the best magic players of all time.
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diophan
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« Reply #341 on: November 19, 2014, 04:49:39 pm » |
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It's not like he's surprising anyone when decklists are quickly available. I think he should have known based on Steve's playstyle that if the oaths go in the orchards do.
If I just missed the orchards, ignore all this. It was interesting how much LSV mixed up his sideboarding strategy. I agree with Steve that having almost all your wincons answered by cage is suspect. Sure abrupt decay and 1-2 hurkyl's answers it, but misdirection is always a thing when playing Steve.
According to the post-mortem interview, LSV's sideboard put Steve badly on tilt initially because he was taken completely by surprise. His assumptions about what LSV would bring in were wrong and it cost him at least one game. Which game are you talking about? Is it match 2 game 2? If LSV doesn't board in orchards it makes Steve's position of playing the control role even better. Discarding delvers and pyros is much better when your opponent can't put an orchard in play. In that particular game LSV boarded in oaths but not orchards (as far as I can tell/remember). I'm not trying to hate on LSV, he's obviously an incredible player, but am wondering why he sideboarded the way he did. Playing a few games without either oath or orchard seems reasonable to mix it up, but bringing in half the combo against someone who isn't playing a creature in the early turns does not seem correct. |
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 04:58:12 pm by diophan »
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #342 on: November 19, 2014, 10:08:24 pm » |
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"Pros" vs not-"pros" is a red herring. Examples of pro being un-smart about Vintage: Countless examples. Chapin saying bad things about Shops; Zvi at the SCG P9 where he made bottom half. Examples of non-pro being un-smart: Take your pick of many TMD posts, including yours truly (how did I ever think that Snapcaster Mage wouldn't be awesome???) --- Example of brilliance from a pro: the best article I've read about Vintage this year from Ari Lax, http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28718_Jump-Starting-Vintage.htmlExample of brilliance from a non-pro: Every SMIP podcast. --- The good Vintage players rise to the top, and the terrible ones do terribly. Simple as that. |
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« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:50:19 pm by diopter »
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #343 on: November 19, 2014, 10:22:56 pm » |
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"Pros" vs not-"pros" is a red herring. Exactly. While neither of us are regulars, both Steve and I have both played on the Pro Tour. A number of the other folks on the VSL have actually played a fair bit of Vintage. And it is worth noting that every single person involved in the VSL cares enough about Vintage to dedicate a lot of time to an event that showcases the Vintage format. |
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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enderfall
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« Reply #344 on: November 19, 2014, 11:15:33 pm » |
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Steve, do you have the impression that Randy is going to change some things going into the next VSL season?
I have a bunch of suggestions to (possibly?) make the VSL even better, such as some sort of integration to encourage people to actually play Vintage on MTGO in some fashion. My biggest gripe with the VSL is that it is not really capitalizing on the potential to engage the community more than being a spectacle to watch one day each week. I have a few ideas that I would love to run by Randy (and/or yourself) if you are open to suggestions. Thanks!
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fsecco
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« Reply #345 on: November 20, 2014, 08:27:50 am » |
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"Pros" vs not-"pros" is a red herring. Exactly. While neither of us are regulars, both Steve and I have both played on the Pro Tour. A number of the other folks on the VSL have actually played a fair bit of Vintage. And it is worth noting that every single person involved in the VSL cares enough about Vintage to dedicate a lot of time to an event that showcases the Vintage format. I agree completely. I guess people just got offended by some wrong comments about Vintage coming from Pros (not the guys in the actual VSL). Saying the pros would finally teach us mortals about Vintage was really a bad thing to say. |
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nedleeds
Tournament Organizers
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« Reply #346 on: November 20, 2014, 01:00:25 pm » |
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Thanks to all the participants for taking time out of their lives to entertain me.
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Hrishi
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« Reply #347 on: November 20, 2014, 01:50:31 pm » |
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"Pros" vs not-"pros" is a red herring. Exactly. While neither of us are regulars, both Steve and I have both played on the Pro Tour. A number of the other folks on the VSL have actually played a fair bit of Vintage. And it is worth noting that every single person involved in the VSL cares enough about Vintage to dedicate a lot of time to an event that showcases the Vintage format. I agree completely. I guess people just got offended by some wrong comments about Vintage coming from Pros (not the guys in the actual VSL). Saying the pros would finally teach us mortals about Vintage was really a bad thing to say. I'm really sorry if this derails the thread, but could someone shed some light on this? I was not playing at the time so I'm unsure as to what happened  |
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Lyna turned to the figure beside her. "They're gone. What now?"
"As ever," said Urza, "we wait."
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Varal
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« Reply #348 on: November 20, 2014, 04:45:35 pm » |
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Sometimes the pros are right. I remember Chapin saying that Gro was really dominant. Everyone laughed at him until he won the Gencon vintage tournament with it and the deck went to dominate Vintage Type 1.
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Demagoguery
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« Reply #349 on: November 21, 2014, 02:15:54 am » |
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"Pros" vs not-"pros" is a red herring. Exactly. While neither of us are regulars, both Steve and I have both played on the Pro Tour. A number of the other folks on the VSL have actually played a fair bit of Vintage. And it is worth noting that every single person involved in the VSL cares enough about Vintage to dedicate a lot of time to an event that showcases the Vintage format. I agree completely. I guess people just got offended by some wrong comments about Vintage coming from Pros (not the guys in the actual VSL). Saying the pros would finally teach us mortals about Vintage was really a bad thing to say. I'm really sorry if this derails the thread, but could someone shed some light on this? I was not playing at the time so I'm unsure as to what happened VMA was going live and as a result Vintage would see play on Mtgo, and basically people said "now pros will play Vintage and we'll see more refined decks and new things and this format will be real." while the other camp said decks were already refined and such. I was in the camp of "more people playing magic means more refined decks and more potential of new things being discovered." but Vintage hasn't been as popular. I did try to play Mtgo recently but I'll never play it again after the horrible customer service. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #350 on: November 25, 2014, 11:13:58 pm » |
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If folks are interested, I'm going to stream most of the matches from the finals last week in an hour or so at my twitch account. The first match games recap from my POV can be viewed here: http://www.twitch.tv/smmenen/profile/past_broadcasts |
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #351 on: November 28, 2014, 01:17:03 pm » |
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Damn! Didn't bring my headphones to work today. Would have enjoyed watching this. |
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DCI Rules Advisor _____________________________ _____ Are you playing The Game? |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #352 on: January 16, 2015, 06:35:02 pm » |
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Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
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« Reply #353 on: January 16, 2015, 09:40:46 pm » |
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Excited for this and also really excited the time has moved up an hour. That's so much more convenient for me; I was getting to bed way too late on Tuesday nights.
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So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #354 on: January 19, 2015, 11:09:35 am » |
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Ridiculously excited for this to return! My phone data is going to be going WAY over in Feb!
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DCI Rules Advisor _____________________________ _____ Are you playing The Game? |
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youhavenogame
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« Reply #356 on: January 20, 2015, 06:30:58 am » |
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This is bad timing for sure. Since most of the VSL guys are preparing and attending the PT anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to move it another 2 weeks?
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Montolio
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« Reply #357 on: January 20, 2015, 08:50:35 am » |
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I think VSL should adhere to the B&R changes. I would also like to see the new set played with as well.
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I've sparred with Demon's from the Nine Hells I say. I shall barely break a sweat here today!
Twitter handle @TheALPHA7
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Varal
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« Reply #358 on: January 20, 2015, 11:17:22 am » |
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VSL pulls strings in high places. They might play a pre-release version.
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thecrav
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« Reply #359 on: January 20, 2015, 04:58:50 pm » |
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Instead of tearing things down we should calmly explain our opinions. |
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