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Author Topic: Aaron Forsythe asks how Wizards can support Vintage  (Read 27217 times)
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« Reply #180 on: October 14, 2014, 03:06:22 pm »

I believe that awareness and interest in Vintage is higher at Wizards now than it's been in many years. Vintage Masters and the Vintage Super League were/are popular. Also, many people in the company have had the chance to actually play Vintage for the first time, because each Wizards employee has a MTGO account with 4X every card in it. Not everyone who tries it likes it, of course, but even the people who don't enjoy it at least understand it pretty well now.

That's a great point, Ethan. I had never thought of how many WotC employees have been exposed to playing Vintage for the first time simply due to VMA.

For anyone curious, I wrote an open letter to Mike Turian today to help get Vintage on MTGO back on track: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-the-state-of-vintage-on-mtgo/
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« Reply #181 on: October 14, 2014, 03:34:47 pm »

Enderfall, that is a nice post. I saw someone on Reddit asking if Vintage on MODO were doomed, and I wrote this in response. Since it is relevant to this discussion, I will copy what I wrote here.

This is a fantastic question, and I think that the real answer is, ``we don't know yet.'' Vintage is a fantastic format, and my deep hope is that the Vintage Super League is helping to show people that it is a format with deep decision-making and deck-crafting, rather than the format of first-turn kills that people so often imagine it to be.

Vintage is amazing. MODO, not so much.

The fact that Vintage on MODO isn't having much success could be due to a number of factors. First, one can argue that Vintage is expensive. However, building a Vintage Blue deck on MODO doesn't cost much more than building a Legacy Delver deck with Wastelands. And in certain geographic locations, there are real-life Vintage events that get good attendance. A MODO Vintage deck costs less than a real-life Vintage decks, even with proxies allowed in the real-life deck.

Thus I find it unlikely that cost is the main factor holding back Vintage on MODO. Looking at demographics, Vintage players tend to be a bit older, have a bit more money, and at the same time are likely less willing to tolerate low-quality software and low-quality policies. I know of a number of old-time real-life Vintage players who bought into MODO with gusto once Vintage Masters was announced. Most of those people are no longer actively playing Vintage on MODO, despite having invested in the cards for it. I think there are a few reasons for this.

Wizards of the Coast initially managed to generate a considerable amount of good will when they first released Vintage Masters on MODO, giving us a way to play Vintage from the comfort of our own homes, and without needing to be in one of the geographic locations that actually has Vintage events. Awesome. Unfortunately, much of that goodwill was squandered during the rollout of Vintage Masters. Staple Vintage cards such as Tangle Wire were bugged. While many of those cards are now fixed, it drove people away just when Vintage on MODO needed to build up as much steam as it could. Further, I still don't think that my favorite card, Mindslaver, is fixed. As a side note, the memory leaks on MODO are entirely fixable, but I still need to restart MODO every few hours.

Beyond card-specific glitches, Wizards' policies on MODO have not been doing much to convince players to stick with Vintage on MODO. A friend of mine had his MODO account suspended because he kept asking for reimbursement during matches where his Tangle Wire malfunctioned. I find it strange that Wizards would penalize him for requesting reimbursement for a bug that they themselves needed to fix. It isn't like there is a list of bugged cards that Wizards maintains, as far as I know. And it isn't like we the players are kept very informed of which cards are and are not working correctly. Wizards' secrecy and poor communication has not done them any favors among Vintage players. They could ban the cards that are bugged, they could maintain a prominent list of them, and they could inform players when their cards now work correctly. Instead, as it is now, players invest a lot of money in their Vintage decks, and are penalized for expecting them to work as written on the cards.

Speaking of poor communication and poor policy, I would be remiss if I failed to point out the unfortunate issue of Worth lying about the closing of Vintage Masters drafts. I, and others I've talked to, bought into Vintage on MODO when Worth announced that Vintage Masters drafts were about to stop. The next day, after I and others bought into Vintage cards during a price spike caused by this announcement, Worth informed us that Vintage Masters drafts were continuing, despite what he had said the very day prior. This did very little to convince us who had little experience with MODO that we should trust Wizards to handle this well.

So, in conclusion, Vintage on MODO has been troubled by card glitches, poor policy, and very poor communication. I would not be surprised if the older and more established demographic who enjoy paper Vintage are in general less tolerant of such things than the demographics who play other formats. I've considered selling my Vintage cards on more than one occasion. I have been saddened to see many friends who were initially so excited about Vintage on MODO abandon the platform. And I truly, deeply hope that Wizards of the Coast will take steps to make things right for those of us who would love to see Vintage on MODO thrive.
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« Reply #182 on: October 14, 2014, 04:05:05 pm »

It isn't like there is a list of bugged cards that Wizards maintains, as far as I know. And it isn't like we the players are kept very informed of which cards are and are not working correctly. Wizards' secrecy and poor communication has not done them any favors among Vintage players. They could ban the cards that are bugged, they could maintain a prominent list of them, and they could inform players when their cards now work correctly. Instead, as it is now, players invest a lot of money in their Vintage decks, and are penalized for expecting them to work as written on the cards.

This entire post is excellent but I want to point out one thing. WotC does have a list of bugged cards. But only bugged cards in current sets. See for example today's post. Clearly, they are okay with posting known bugs. Why only post known bugs with new cards?

The cynic and former-software-qa-guy in me thinks it's because this list would be much longer than we imagine it is.

The hopeful guy in me thinks it's because, like with the FNM format, whoever is releasing these lists just doesn't think about cards other than the new ones.
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« Reply #183 on: October 14, 2014, 04:28:51 pm »

Thanks for letting me know about this. I'm a cynic and someone who works with software, so I'm more inclined for the less optimistic of your views.
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« Reply #184 on: October 14, 2014, 05:11:57 pm »

I bought in a little after they announced the draft would actually continue, so I got a nice price for my P9 and duals. I currently have 4 decks built on MTGO (they mostly play the same cards) with variants.

But I can say I haven't logged in to play for the past 2 or 3 weeks (the exception being Bad Moon Rising 4, a player-run event).

I haven't logged in because the client is very, VERY slow for me, making me lose games to the clock that I shouldn't lose.  Also the fact that I bought in months ago and haven't seen a daily fire in front of me yet is a total frustration. Combine those things with unreal prices in cards like Wastelands and Cliques, and the undeniable fact that infinite combos are a pain to play in te client... And all I can say is that I'm not liking the whole thing....

I still haven't sold my stuff, but I feel inclined to it more and more.
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« Reply #185 on: October 14, 2014, 05:15:31 pm »

I believe that awareness and interest in Vintage is higher at Wizards now than it's been in many years. Vintage Masters and the Vintage Super League were/are popular. Also, many people in the company have had the chance to actually play Vintage for the first time, because each Wizards employee has a MTGO account with 4X every card in it. Not everyone who tries it likes it, of course, but even the people who don't enjoy it at least understand it pretty well now.

Interesting, I had never even considered this. I forget that not everybody are lucky enough to actually get exposed to Vintage on a regular basis. This is great to hear!
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« Reply #186 on: October 14, 2014, 07:03:07 pm »

I believe that awareness and interest in Vintage is higher at Wizards now than it's been in many years. Vintage Masters and the Vintage Super League were/are popular. Also, many people in the company have had the chance to actually play Vintage for the first time, because each Wizards employee has a MTGO account with 4X every card in it. Not everyone who tries it likes it, of course, but even the people who don't enjoy it at least understand it pretty well now.

That's a great point, Ethan. I had never thought of how many WotC employees have been exposed to playing Vintage for the first time simply due to VMA.

For anyone curious, I wrote an open letter to Mike Turian today to help get Vintage on MTGO back on track: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-the-state-of-vintage-on-mtgo/

Just finished reading this

Quote
Each weekday event should target a specific audience (i.e., Europe or North America). Right now, the 5:30am PST event is not suitable for anyone, by my estimation. Europeans are still working, and people in North America are just getting up and/or starting work. I propose that the 5:30am PST event should be moved to a more European friendly time slot of 11:30am PST, which would be 7:30pm for Western Europeans and 8:30pm for Eastern Europeans.

Hit the nail on the head for me. I've always considered the 3 legacy dailies to be the European, American, and Pacific legacy dailies. The vintage ones seem to be targeted at... well, the emptiest slot they could find.
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« Reply #187 on: October 14, 2014, 07:17:57 pm »


For anyone curious, I wrote an open letter to Mike Turian today to help get Vintage on MTGO back on track: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-the-state-of-vintage-on-mtgo/

I think this is a pretty interesting read, and hopefully will lead to some changes in the way WoTC handles MTGO. The only thing that struck me as off is that you mentioned that anecdotally the Vintage player base is older with greater responsibilities (full time jobs and families) yet you short change the role of leagues and reach the conclusion that Vintage needs multi round tournaments with top 8's for a robust Vintage community. Assuming leagues are implemented well (if they ever are implemented) I think they will play  a much bigger role in developing a stronger Vintage community on MTGO. For all its shortcomings MTGO still has the great strength of allowing users to play Magic on demand. If well done leagues could provide competitive play with strong prize support while playing to the program's greatest strength. A strength, which in my opinion, is even more important to the Vintage player base as described in your letter.
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« Reply #188 on: October 14, 2014, 07:22:20 pm »

I haven't logged in because the client is very, VERY slow for me,

Slightly off-topic, but how often do you sign out and log back in? Right now, the current client has some really bad memory leaks which have an exponential effect the longer you stay logged-in and slows down the client considerably. I personally log out of the client right before an event that I want to play in is set to start, and log out after every 3 matches. It's not ideal, obviously, but it does help fix the slow down for me.


For anyone curious, I wrote an open letter to Mike Turian today to help get Vintage on MTGO back on track: http://www.mtgoacademy.com/utv-76-open-letter-to-mike-turian-regarding-the-state-of-vintage-on-mtgo/

I think this is a pretty interesting read, and hopefully will lead to some changes in the way WoTC handles MTGO. The only thing that struck me as off is that you mentioned that anecdotally the Vintage player base is older with greater responsibilities (full time jobs and families) yet you short change the role of leagues and reach the conclusion that Vintage needs multi round tournaments with top 8's for a robust Vintage community. Assuming leagues are implemented well (if they ever are implemented) I think they will play  a much bigger role in developing a stronger Vintage community on MTGO. For all its shortcomings MTGO still has the great strength of allowing users to play Magic on demand. If well done leagues could provide competitive play with strong prize support while playing to the program's greatest strength. A strength, which in my opinion, is even more important to the Vintage player base as described in your letter.

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I didn't mention leagues too much is that we don;t have any idea what they are going to look like, and I have a strong feeling that they are simply going to mirror the current 4-round events except that you can play "on demand". I have a hard time believing that Leagues will allow Vintage (or any format) to play events that last longer than 4 rounds. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do, but I'm not holding my breath.
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« Reply #189 on: October 14, 2014, 08:58:07 pm »

I haven't logged in because the client is very, VERY slow for me,

Slightly off-topic, but how often do you sign out and log back in? Right now, the current client has some really bad memory leaks which have an exponential effect the longer you stay logged-in and slows down the client considerably. I personally log out of the client right before an event that I want to play in is set to start, and log out after every 3 matches. It's not ideal, obviously, but it does help fix the slow down for me.
[/quote]

I feel like I'm the only one not experiencing this. I pretty much only restart the client once a week - when I get kicked off for the downtime.
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« Reply #190 on: October 14, 2014, 09:03:31 pm »

I haven't logged in because the client is very, VERY slow for me,

Slightly off-topic, but how often do you sign out and log back in? Right now, the current client has some really bad memory leaks which have an exponential effect the longer you stay logged-in and slows down the client considerably. I personally log out of the client right before an event that I want to play in is set to start, and log out after every 3 matches. It's not ideal, obviously, but it does help fix the slow down for me.


Yeah, I probably have to log out and in again every 3-4 matches. I worry a lot about playing longer tournaments online since logging out and in again could easily take more than 5 minutes for me... So I never did that in the middle of an event. Does it work well?
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« Reply #191 on: October 14, 2014, 09:19:47 pm »

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I didn't mention leagues too much is that we don;t have any idea what they are going to look like, and I have a strong feeling that they are simply going to mirror the current 4-round events except that you can play "on demand". I have a hard time believing that Leagues will allow Vintage (or any format) to play events that last longer than 4 rounds. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do, but I'm not holding my breath.

If they mirror how they looked back when they still existed on MTGO, they would be run over 4 weeks and the first 3-5 matches would count to the record for the week.  I only ever played in Limited Leagues but I don't see why Vintage or any other constructed format wouldn't work as well.

I think that further matches counted towards a tiebreaker of some variety, but I am not entirely certain.

It certainly would be fun to play in a League environment.  Jamming 2-mans does not interest me and I can never find the time to play in a daily.

Ethan, I know you may have little pull in the way they are set up, but if Vintage Leagues are planned, I hope that someone champions them being worthwhile.  One dedicated champion for an idea is all it takes sometimes.
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« Reply #192 on: October 14, 2014, 10:55:44 pm »


If they mirror how they looked back when they still existed on MTGO, they would be run over 4 weeks and the first 3-5 matches would count to the record for the week.  I only ever played in Limited Leagues but I don't see why Vintage or any other constructed format wouldn't work as well.

I think that further matches counted towards a tiebreaker of some variety, but I am not entirely certain.

It certainly would be fun to play in a League environment.  Jamming 2-mans does not interest me and I can never find the time to play in a daily.


This was my understanding  as well. You would get somewhere between 10-20 matches over a set number of weeks. If it is something like 5 matches a week it would allow enough flexibility to allow people like us who can't find 4 hours at a time to play dailies to play competitively, and depending on entry fees you could likely provided large prizes to top performers as you are paying to play somewhere between 3-5 dailies worth of matches. Maybe WoTC will give us more info soon latest update I could find on Wizards is from May promising delivery by the end of the year.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/05282014/widebetaupdate
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« Reply #193 on: October 14, 2014, 11:13:32 pm »

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I didn't mention leagues too much is that we don;t have any idea what they are going to look like, and I have a strong feeling that they are simply going to mirror the current 4-round events except that you can play "on demand". I have a hard time believing that Leagues will allow Vintage (or any format) to play events that last longer than 4 rounds. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do, but I'm not holding my breath.

If they mirror how they looked back when they still existed on MTGO, they would be run over 4 weeks and the first 3-5 matches would count to the record for the week.  I only ever played in Limited Leagues but I don't see why Vintage or any other constructed format wouldn't work as well.

I think that further matches counted towards a tiebreaker of some variety, but I am not entirely certain.

It certainly would be fun to play in a League environment.  Jamming 2-mans does not interest me and I can never find the time to play in a daily.

Ethan, I know you may have little pull in the way they are set up, but if Vintage Leagues are planned, I hope that someone champions them being worthwhile.  One dedicated champion for an idea is all it takes sometimes.

I sit two desks away from the primary designer of the new leagues feature, and I've participated in a couple of playtests myself. I can't reveal any details, but they look to be very well designed for busy grownups like most of us, who want to compete on our own timetable. I'll double check and make sure the MTGO folks know that Vintage players want Vintage leagues!
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« Reply #194 on: October 14, 2014, 11:23:25 pm »

I certainly hope Vintage leagues were already in the works, but thank you Ethan for looking into it (and commenting if you are able to).

I haven't logged in because the client is very, VERY slow for me,

Slightly off-topic, but how often do you sign out and log back in? Right now, the current client has some really bad memory leaks which have an exponential effect the longer you stay logged-in and slows down the client considerably. I personally log out of the client right before an event that I want to play in is set to start, and log out after every 3 matches. It's not ideal, obviously, but it does help fix the slow down for me.


Yeah, I probably have to log out and in again every 3-4 matches. I worry a lot about playing longer tournaments online since logging out and in again could easily take more than 5 minutes for me... So I never did that in the middle of an event. Does it work well?

It's a solution for me, but I don't play in as many tournaments as some "power" MTGO users do. I think it's just a sample size issue; the more you play, the more likely you're going to witness difficulty logging back in from time to time. Nonetheless, I try to relog whenever I play a round which my match ends quickly and others are still playing. YMMV.
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« Reply #195 on: October 26, 2014, 01:31:55 pm »

It'd be nice if 8-man vintage daily events on MTGO could fire. The regular play would eventually get more people interested in the 16-man ones too.
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« Reply #196 on: October 26, 2014, 10:48:16 pm »

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I didn't mention leagues too much is that we don;t have any idea what they are going to look like, and I have a strong feeling that they are simply going to mirror the current 4-round events except that you can play "on demand". I have a hard time believing that Leagues will allow Vintage (or any format) to play events that last longer than 4 rounds. I will be pleasantly surprised if they do, but I'm not holding my breath.

If they mirror how they looked back when they still existed on MTGO, they would be run over 4 weeks and the first 3-5 matches would count to the record for the week.  I only ever played in Limited Leagues but I don't see why Vintage or any other constructed format wouldn't work as well.

I think that further matches counted towards a tiebreaker of some variety, but I am not entirely certain.

It certainly would be fun to play in a League environment.  Jamming 2-mans does not interest me and I can never find the time to play in a daily.

Ethan, I know you may have little pull in the way they are set up, but if Vintage Leagues are planned, I hope that someone champions them being worthwhile.  One dedicated champion for an idea is all it takes sometimes.

I sit two desks away from the primary designer of the new leagues feature, and I've participated in a couple of playtests myself. I can't reveal any details, but they look to be very well designed for busy grownups like most of us, who want to compete on our own timetable. I'll double check and make sure the MTGO folks know that Vintage players want Vintage leagues!


This has potential.
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« Reply #197 on: October 27, 2014, 09:00:19 am »

Will a Vintage FNM happen somewhere? Very Happy

If I have anything to say about it, yes.  Smile
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« Reply #198 on: October 27, 2014, 09:48:49 am »

Will a Vintage FNM happen somewhere? Very Happy

If I have anything to say about it, yes.  Smile

A couple years ago, we could have made it happen down here.  We had 7 people who owned Power and 2 of us had Dredge to lend out.  Unfortunately, real life got in the way of keeping most of their collections, so now only 3 of us have power with 2 Dredge decks for loaning,  Sad
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« Reply #199 on: October 29, 2014, 07:37:46 pm »

So here's kind of my stupid idea to give Vintage more support without having to break the RL:

Let's say you want to make a Vintage GP or PT, or something, you can't really do that because there simply isn't enough power to go around, but we can clearly have Legacy GPs and such, so there's enough of the other staples to sustain them. So, what if when you signed up for the event, part of the entry included a proxy set of Power 9 only usable for that one event and only that one event. In other words, it's kind of a special event where you're given the right to specifically play with these "proxies" as an option, issued by the tournament itself?

I know it's clunky and probably runs into certain logistic issues but it could be done as a celebration thing or something, couldn't it?

It would also provide collectors with another cool goody to pick up and hold onto for a while until it becomes a rarity in itself, despite having no playable value.
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« Reply #200 on: October 29, 2014, 08:17:51 pm »

So here's kind of my stupid idea to give Vintage more support without having to break the RL:

Let's say you want to make a Vintage GP
...
So, what if when you signed up for the event, part of the entry included a proxy set of Power 9 only usable for that one event and only that one event. In other words, it's kind of a special event where you're given the right to specifically play with these "proxies" as an option, issued by the tournament itself?

It's not a bad idea but it still runs afoul of the proxy rules associated with sanctioned magic. If those rules were tweaked slightly, this might be a possibility.
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« Reply #201 on: October 29, 2014, 08:33:04 pm »

Come to think of it, if that doesn't break the specific wording of the RL, then that would be a very good thing to do. The entry fee could be raised to justify the proxies. Wotc might be convinced to adapt to create these one use proxies for one event to see how it goes. The Gp would be smaller than most others, but it could potentially get close to a thousand players if it is advertised enough to the Legacy crowd.  Ideally, it would be held in the northeast.
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« Reply #202 on: October 29, 2014, 08:51:11 pm »

My initial instinct would be that it would be in Vegas since that's where the awesome Modern Masters GP was, so it's kind of the place for awesome special events in my mind. Plus it's a cool destination, with cheap flights/hotels, and it's easier to justify going there for a small vacation that starts or ends with a GP than it is say an East Coast GP. However, I do live on the East Coast so it would just be a road trip for me.

So here's kind of my stupid idea to give Vintage more support without having to break the RL:

Let's say you want to make a Vintage GP
...
So, what if when you signed up for the event, part of the entry included a proxy set of Power 9 only usable for that one event and only that one event. In other words, it's kind of a special event where you're given the right to specifically play with these "proxies" as an option, issued by the tournament itself?

It's not a bad idea but it still runs afoul of the proxy rules associated with sanctioned magic. If those rules were tweaked slightly, this might be a possibility.
Well to be fair, I don't even know if they would be proxies since they're actual cards for the duration of the event provided in a printed packet. It's kind of like those hero items from the Theros pre-release events, they could only be used in like specific events before essentially becoming meaningless?

I don't know the entire workings of it all so I can't really say what it would fall under. I simply used proxy as a default term.
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« Reply #203 on: October 30, 2014, 09:14:40 am »

The Hero cards, alongside things like Conspiracies and whatnot, do not have the "walks like a duck" problem that an official Black Lotus stand-in has. Convincing proxy cards (and even unconvincing ones) have been the target of legal action from WotC before (and of course I suddenly forget the names of parties involved; I'll try and remember specific incidents and update the post if I can) and I think the notion of official Power 'replacement' cards has the same net effect; they work as well as the real Magic cards they represent, they possibly share the same or similar backing regardless of their border color, they fit into sleeves... like, I don't think there's a way to create "non-functional functional replacements" that don't require a ton of puppyguarding or bookkeeping on behalf of the TO. It isn't like someone who walks out of an event with a "sanctioned tourney only" Black Lotus suddenly finds that all the text falls off and his friends force him to remove all instances of it from his decks before they playtest, right? It's a plastic chess piece next to marble ones, sure, but a rook is a rook.
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« Reply #204 on: October 30, 2014, 11:07:06 am »

Well no, the lawsuits (though more often just warnings of lawsuits) were a result of other third parties creating cards that at times functioned as actual cards in their events, what I'm suggesting is Wizards themselves produce this special packet for the event, meaning that it's not someone else infringing on their IP, but rather them utilizing it. Additionally, you don't actually have to give them the same back as a normal card, as long as you require sleeves to be used if they are present in a deck. You can also give them gold boarders and make the flavour text something like "Used at the ____ GP." This would all have to be done through Wizards though, and provided to the TO as they provide promos and such, the TO would only be there to distribute it, not produce it.

I don't really get the whole playtesting comment, since when it comes to playtesting a land with sharpied text is just as good as any actual card and the quality of the proxy shouldn't matter.
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« Reply #205 on: October 30, 2014, 12:24:26 pm »

. It isn't like someone who walks out of an event with a "sanctioned tourney only" Black Lotus suddenly finds that all the text falls off

Totally doable.
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #206 on: October 30, 2014, 02:22:31 pm »

Well no, the lawsuits (though more often just warnings of lawsuits) were a result of other third parties creating cards that at times functioned as actual cards in their events, what I'm suggesting is Wizards themselves produce this special packet for the event, meaning that it's not someone else infringing on their IP, but rather them utilizing it. Additionally, you don't actually have to give them the same back as a normal card, as long as you require sleeves to be used if they are present in a deck. You can also give them gold boarders and make the flavour text something like "Used at the ____ GP." This would all have to be done through Wizards though, and provided to the TO as they provide promos and such, the TO would only be there to distribute it, not produce it.

I don't really get the whole playtesting comment, since when it comes to playtesting a land with sharpied text is just as good as any actual card and the quality of the proxy shouldn't matter.

I guess what I'm trying to do is obliquely address the specific by generalizing. The point is the nature of the barrier to reprinting doesn't matter (whether it's a literal lawsuit, the threat of one, or simply an unwillingness to break a promise -- that it exists is apparently enough). The point is that WotC cannot print a tourney-only Lotus regardless of its differences from the older cards, precisely because the minute they create such a facsimile, it becomes the next best version of that card and will be used in its steed in the same way as any proxy would. It might have a "For Use Only During GP Barcelona" printed on it, but that won't matter to any person who manages to leave the venue with theirs - at the end of the day, it's a Black Lotus that Wizards printed. Such product would quickly supplant the bulk of existing Plains Edition Lotuses exist (unless someone's super-fond of their effort) and become a de facto reprint for all intents and purposes, save the occasional sanctioned event.

I'd love to see some kind of 'FNM-only' proxy system worked out, but like... how you prevent those cards from just replacing the swaths of Plains Ed Black Lotus out there, I have no idea. And I would wager that the primary use-case for most cards that would be subject to that kind of printing is in that unsanctioned zone already - so it would be tantamount to printing new Lotuses whether that is their intent or not.
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Killane
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« Reply #207 on: October 30, 2014, 02:28:09 pm »

Make them the property of WoTC. Require your DCI card at entry, whcih gets scanned into a database along with barcodes on the cards themselves. Requre surrender of the card at exit in order to leave.
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« Reply #208 on: October 30, 2014, 03:59:45 pm »

Well no, the lawsuits (though more often just warnings of lawsuits) were a result of other third parties creating cards that at times functioned as actual cards in their events, what I'm suggesting is Wizards themselves produce this special packet for the event, meaning that it's not someone else infringing on their IP, but rather them utilizing it. Additionally, you don't actually have to give them the same back as a normal card, as long as you require sleeves to be used if they are present in a deck. You can also give them gold boarders and make the flavour text something like "Used at the ____ GP." This would all have to be done through Wizards though, and provided to the TO as they provide promos and such, the TO would only be there to distribute it, not produce it.

I don't really get the whole playtesting comment, since when it comes to playtesting a land with sharpied text is just as good as any actual card and the quality of the proxy shouldn't matter.

I guess what I'm trying to do is obliquely address the specific by generalizing. The point is the nature of the barrier to reprinting doesn't matter (whether it's a literal lawsuit, the threat of one, or simply an unwillingness to break a promise -- that it exists is apparently enough). The point is that WotC cannot print a tourney-only Lotus regardless of its differences from the older cards, precisely because the minute they create such a facsimile, it becomes the next best version of that card and will be used in its steed in the same way as any proxy would. It might have a "For Use Only During GP Barcelona" printed on it, but that won't matter to any person who manages to leave the venue with theirs - at the end of the day, it's a Black Lotus that Wizards printed. Such product would quickly supplant the bulk of existing Plains Edition Lotuses exist (unless someone's super-fond of their effort) and become a de facto reprint for all intents and purposes, save the occasional sanctioned event.

I'd love to see some kind of 'FNM-only' proxy system worked out, but like... how you prevent those cards from just replacing the swaths of Plains Ed Black Lotus out there, I have no idea. And I would wager that the primary use-case for most cards that would be subject to that kind of printing is in that unsanctioned zone already - so it would be tantamount to printing new Lotuses whether that is their intent or not.
I think you're worried too much about nice proxies being out there. The intent is that this is done for only one event, and has something like you suggested on it being "For Use Only During GP ____". As for it being a nice proxy, we already have Collector's Edition prints and World Championship decks printed in the past that basically functioned in very much the same manner. I don't really see the issue of having a nice looking proxy versus any other proxy if the events are mostly proxy events anyway as it stands now, it's only an issue if events started running that said you could use this "hero" power to not count towards your proxy limit, and Wizards can easily tell people to cut that out.

So let's look at it this way:

Pros:
- Can allow a GP, PT, or other large event to happen.
- Produce cool collectable cards that have no value based on play.
- Doesn't break the Reserved List.

Cons:
- People get slightly nicer proxies to replace their random proxies that their already using if they wish?


I'm just not seeing the issue of introducing potential proxies into events that allow proxies already.
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nedleeds
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« Reply #209 on: October 30, 2014, 04:18:43 pm »

Make them the property of WoTC. Require your DCI card at entry, whcih gets scanned into a database along with barcodes on the cards themselves. Requre surrender of the card at exit in order to leave.

Or what?

Start small and legalize IC/CE see if that in anyway satiates demand (hint it probably won't). Then proceed from there, if WotC isn't willing to legalize their own Carti Mundi printed moxes and lotuses for eternal play then nothing else is going to happen. They can and might aboloish the reserved list, it exists at their leisure. It's a shame they closed the promo foil loophole. That would have been an interesting way to squeeze controlled amounts of (hideous foil) power into the wild.

e.g. top 8 competitors at Eternal Weekend got foil power 9 ... 8-16 get a library ... though maybe those would just end up with collectors and never actually get played.
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