Treasure Cruise

[TheWhiteDragon]

Leyline of the Void/Rest in Peace becomes even more attractive now, though grafdigger's cage has oath utility.

[gkraigher]

Maxdawg, not extensively, but yes, I have tested with and against them.  they aren't very good.  dig through time is the better of the two, but neither one was great in my testing. 

tried a few different variations:  gush/young pyromancer, blue control, dack fayden slaver

they don't fit with pyromancer, and in the other decks you would much rather just have yawgmoth's will.  the problem tended to be the negative interaction with yawg will and the overall expensive CC on the cards.  the CC is what killed it in pyromancer.  

I didn't try it in oath, where the cards could be good--or they could simply be more.  i still don't know.

i didn't create new builds with the cards, rather tested old frames with them and I was not impressed.    

I don't think treasure cruise is playable.  Dig Through Time still has potential in the right deck.  

[Chubby Rain]

Maxdawg, not extensively, but yes, I have tested with and against them.  they aren't very good.  dig through time is the better of the two, but neither one was great in my testing. 

tried a few different variations:  gush/young pyromancer, blue control, dack fayden slaver

they don't fit with pyromancer, and in the other decks you would much rather just have yawgmoth's will.  the problem tended to be the negative interaction with yawg will and the overall expensive CC on the cards.  the CC is what killed it in pyromancer. 

I didn't try it in oath, where the cards could be good--or they could simply be more.  i still don't know.

i didn't create new builds with the cards, rather tested old frames with them and I was not impressed.   

I don't think treasure cruise is playable.  Dig Through Time still has potential in the right deck. 

I think this is a really good assessment. I have found Dig to be excellent in UW Bomberman but I consider this to be the ideal shell for the card. Basically, I think Dig and Treasure Cruise have the same restrictions:

A) The deck must accumulate cards in the graveyard. (Duh)
B) The deck should not otherwise utilize the graveyard. (i.e. no Will, Deathrites, Snapcaster Mages)
C) The deck should ideally function at a higher land count (no Gush)

Bomberman fulfills these criteria in that it is a mana heavy deck that is not overly graveyard reliant (just don't exile Lotus) and accumulates cards in the graveyard simply by playing the game. Dig digs for the combo much better than Cruise and has proven to be an upgrade over Fact or Fiction in the deck (I ran 3 Jaces in the list).

[fsecco]

Seems like the winning SCG Open list today (Legacy) was a Delver deck with 4 Treasure Cruise and 4 Monastery Swiftspear. Interesting.

[enderfall]

I think Draining into either of these cards is going to be worthwhile. I think any deck that already plays, or has considered playing, Fact or Fiction would really embrace DTT. TC seems more suited for Tempo decks that just want to gain a quick boost of CA. The winning deck from SCGNJ, a Delver Tempo deck showed how good TC is in the deck. It ran a full playset of the card.

[boggyb]

Seems like the winning SCG Open list today (Legacy) was a Delver deck with 4 Treasure Cruise and 4 Monastery Swiftspear. Interesting.

Yes, and if you watch the coverage, the card was key in several games all day for him. Seems a wonder in that deck -- a Gush for Legacy, a consistent source of card advantage: exactly what Legacy UR Delver was missing

[gkraigher]

Yeah the blue red legacy deck is maximizing the value from this card.  Vintage runs different, but pretty big eternal splash on first day out. 

Maybe I'm wrong

[boggyb]

Yes, in particular, Legacy has access to 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, and can take advantage of Daze, so its graveyard fills up a lot faster.

[serracollector]

Where is this coverage?  A link please?  And um, even tho we don't have 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder we do have 4 Gitaxian Probe, and 4 Manamorphose.  I tested a UR variant using just 4 Pyromancer and 4 Guttersnipe, and 3 treasure Cruise, alongside 2 Howl of the Horde, and haven't had a problem casting either.  Side note, howl of the hordes into Manamorphose is a lot of cards and a lot of mana.....just saying.

[Demagoguery]

Seems like the winning SCG Open list today (Legacy) was a Delver deck with 4 Treasure Cruise and 4 Monastery Swiftspear. Interesting.

The quick interview they had with him after he won, the pretty much said 4x Cruise was now mandatory for Delver pretty much as it puts you way over the top in the mirror and helps you bury opponents in other match ups.

In his last game he raced a Griselbrand from a reanimator deck, the life totals were 1 to 2.

[diophan]

Where is this coverage?  A link please?  And um, even tho we don't have 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder we do have 4 Gitaxian Probe, and 4 Manamorphose.  I tested a UR variant using just 4 Pyromancer and 4 Guttersnipe, and 3 treasure Cruise, alongside 2 Howl of the Horde, and haven't had a problem casting either.  Side note, howl of the hordes into Manamorphose is a lot of cards and a lot of mana.....just saying.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/572608104
Legacy event starts around 27:30 The finals are obviously towards the end but he's on camera multiple times.

[Chubby Rain]

Just a note, zero snapcaster mages in the UR delver list and 10 fetch lands.

[Protoaddict]

Well that all makes sense. Snapcaster has counter synergy with TC and fetches help fuel it. I think by and large the theory is for 1 less mana you get 3 cards as opposed to a creature and 1, and since snapcaster is not the best creature in the world without the extra card your able to run better bodies you actually want and still get your spells.

The downside if any is that snapcaster allows you to recast time walk in a tempo based list, but if the deck does function correctly odds are you will not need to many extra turns.

Snapcaster is less vulnerable to some hate since it is a 2/1 Flash bear at the worst, but TC does have more upside and I imagine will get shuffled away if not needed.

The thing about TC is it gets around some of the hate that may be played against graveyard decks like Grafdiggers, but it totally dead against Leyline and rest in peace. It'll be interesting to see how the meta adjusts its board hate and how badly that affects dredge.

[dangerlinto]

The thing about TC is it gets around some of the hate that may be played against graveyard decks like Grafdiggers, but it totally dead against Leyline and rest in peace. It'll be interesting to see how the meta adjusts its board hate and how badly that affects dredge.

If you are playing TC, chances are you are probably pretty happy if your opponent brings in LOTV or RIP to combat all those cards you didn't want in your graveyard anyway.  Admittedly if that plan also happens to be to bring out Helm of Obedience, then great for them, but I don't see that being a significant portion of the likely meta.   

[rickster]

Well that all makes sense. Snapcaster has counter synergy with TC and fetches help fuel it. I think by and large the theory is for 1 less mana you get 3 cards as opposed to a creature and 1, and since snapcaster is not the best creature in the world without the extra card your able to run better bodies you actually want and still get your spells.

The downside if any is that snapcaster allows you to recast time walk in a tempo based list, but if the deck does function correctly odds are you will not need to many extra turns.

Snapcaster is less vulnerable to some hate since it is a 2/1 Flash bear at the worst, but TC does have more upside and I imagine will get shuffled away if not needed.

The thing about TC is it gets around some of the hate that may be played against graveyard decks like Grafdiggers, but it totally dead against Leyline and rest in peace. It'll be interesting to see how the meta adjusts its board hate and how badly that affects dredge.

I think the reason why he played zero snapcaster is that his deck only had 17 lands. His most expensive spell main deck cost 2 mana, which was young pyromancer. Snapcaster only costs 2 if you flash back probe.

[gkraigher]

Actually I don't think you are happy at all if your opponent boards in graveyard hate if you are playing treasure cruise.  If you have access to relic of progentius or nihilism spell bomb, you cantrip and take away your opponents ability to play a card their deck is based around.  Rip means treasure cruise is never getting cast in the game.  If I board in 2 cards for brick 4 of yours, that seems fine.  Especially when they cantrip

[Demagoguery]

Actually I don't think you are happy at all if your opponent boards in graveyard hate if you are playing treasure cruise.  If you have access to relic of progentius or nihilism spell bomb, you cantrip and take away your opponents ability to play a card their deck is based around.  Rip means treasure cruise is never getting cast in the game.  If I board in 2 cards for brick 4 of yours, that seems fine.  Especially when they cantrip

Well hold on now, we're assuming they're just putting a RIP down and you're doing nothing. Usually decks that are running Treasure Cruise are running a fair amount of counters, such as UR Delver with all the small tempo based ones, and there's still a window prior to them playing a RIP where you can resolve a Cruise.

Look at it this way, if they're running Relic or Spell Bomb it's good for them since it's not really a dead card and can replace itself, but it's also one time use, so there's still the chance that it slows but doesn't stop a Cruise. If they're bringing in say 4 leylines or 4 RIPs, well after the first one the following copies are blanks, and they've essentially created 3 blanks to blank 4 of your cards assuming Treasure Cruise is the only card that really cares about your yard. Not only that but it still pitches to things like FoW and Misdirection, also if on the other hand you cast a Cruise prior to their RIP, then you're way ahead.

I think that's really what needs to be acknowledged here, if Cruise is your primary yard card, then they can't really hurt you that much with RIP as it's almost symmetrical at that point, if not in your favour. If they run something like Spellbomb or Relic instead you still obtain windows in which you can resolve a Cruise, whether before or after the remove your yard. So as a whole it doesn't really make Cruise bad, and that's not even considering boarding shenanigans that are possible on your side.

[enderfall]

The more people are talking about this card, the longer it seems the wait between paper and digital release is getting! Can't wait to grab a set of these, and a couple DTT to test on MTGO.

[fsecco]

I think Cruise is better than Dig only in deck that have little mana, just like this Delver list. But it's nice to see the card is actually good in spite what people were saying in here. Can't wait to play Dig in a tournament later this week

[Protoaddict]

This is one of those reasons some players are steering more towards DTT than TC. Since Delve is a cost reduction mechanic you can cast DTT at instant speed in response to any grave hate and get your cards (though obviously instant speed is better that just that reason.) With Cruise, if you don't lead with it when you have priority you may risk having your yard taken away from you and being stranded with a blank blue card.

That being said I think the real question becomes the comparison between TC and Gush. Gush has obvious combo applications with Fastbond and Library of Alexandria, while TC has less demand on what type of land you use (which may be a huge factor in the future) and sheer volume, plus the ability to sometimes shrink a gofy.

Has anyone tried TC in a shell that is not islands matter? It seems like a mana base of rainbow lands in 5CC with Cruises may be a good idea to test. This is a GREAT recovery tool after balance.

[dangerlinto]

Actually I don't think you are happy at all if your opponent boards in graveyard hate if you are playing treasure cruise.  If you have access to relic of progentius or nihilism spell bomb, you cantrip and take away your opponents ability to play a card their deck is based around.  Rip means treasure cruise is never getting cast in the game.  If I board in 2 cards for brick 4 of yours, that seems fine.  Especially when they cantrip

Well hold on now, we're assuming they're just putting a RIP down and you're doing nothing. Usually decks that are running Treasure Cruise are running a fair amount of counters, such as UR Delver with all the small tempo based ones, and there's still a window prior to them playing a RIP where you can resolve a Cruise.

Someone boarding in RIP or Leyline is akin to someone boarding in Warped Devotion to take out Gush.   Whatever that deck is doing, they are probably still doing it whether or not they get the card advantage of gush.  Again, it's not great for the deck running TC if they are actively using RIP/Leyline to advance their own play, but apart from that, it's not really a worry.

[MaximumCDawg]

Actually I don't think you are happy at all if your opponent boards in graveyard hate if you are playing treasure cruise.  If you have access to relic of progentius or nihilism spell bomb, you cantrip and take away your opponents ability to play a card their deck is based around.  Rip means treasure cruise is never getting cast in the game.  If I board in 2 cards for brick 4 of yours, that seems fine.  Especially when they cantrip

Well hold on now, we're assuming they're just putting a RIP down and you're doing nothing. Usually decks that are running Treasure Cruise are running a fair amount of counters, such as UR Delver with all the small tempo based ones, and there's still a window prior to them playing a RIP where you can resolve a Cruise.

Someone boarding in RIP or Leyline is akin to someone boarding in Warped Devotion to take out Gush.   Whatever that deck is doing, they are probably still doing it whether or not they get the card advantage of gush.  Again, it's not great for the deck running TC if they are actively using RIP/Leyline to advance their own play, but apart from that, it's not really a worry.

All true, but let's not forget the half-baked yard hate in cards like Joten Grunt and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and less half-baked haters like Spirit of the Lab.  If Cruise gets common, these cards look much more attractive as part of your hatebear.dec.

[gkraigher]

Someone boarding in RIP or Leyline is akin to someone boarding in Warped Devotion to take out Gush.

This statement is ridiculous.  No one will ever have warped devotion sitting in their sideboard.  Conversely people do have access to nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, and rest of peace post board.  Marc Lanigra even ran one spellbomb main when he won Vintage Worlds in 2012.   People will use this as a line against treasure cruises.  It's not hard to make sure your graveyard is gone before you have enough cards to cast dig through time.  

The point is, these delve cards can be played around.  If you have no graveyard, the spell cannot be cast.  

As a shops player, I will bring in Relic of Progenitus all day vs this strategy. 

[Demagoguery]

Someone boarding in RIP or Leyline is akin to someone boarding in Warped Devotion to take out Gush.

This statement is ridiculous.  No one will ever have warped devotion sitting in their sideboard.  Conversely people do have access to nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, and rest of peace post board.  Marc Lanigra even ran one spellbomb main when he won Vintage Worlds in 2012.   People will use this as a line against treasure cruises.  It's not hard to make sure your graveyard is gone before you have enough cards to cast dig through time.  

The point is, these delve cards can be played around.  If you have no graveyard, the spell cannot be cast.  

As a shops player, I will bring in Relic of Progenitus all day vs this strategy. 

What do you take out to bring Relic in?

[fsecco]

Comparing Dig to Gush is... Wrong. I'm testing 2 Digs in shells like Bomberman and MonoU and they're really good. Grixis control may be able to use it well also. I'm a little shocked people are now able to test this and still haven't got to these conclusions.

Last night I was even able to resolve a Dig on a table with Lodestone, Sphere and Trinisphere (irrelevant) diggin my out and a land. Nice.

People sometimes do bring grave hate against Will based decks, so maybe they'll bring against Dig or Cruise. Against Bomberman, for example, it may even be good. But against Delver, if you bring grave hate in, you're doomed with slots that do not interact with the matchup, even if you cut their draw. Of course, the problem with Cruise will be against decks that already pack RIP maindeck or that can play the RIP/Helm combo. If you side out 4 Cruises, what do you bring in?

[gkraigher]

Take out vs delver?  Phyrexian revoker.  Whatever card has even less of an impact.  Heck even wasteland isn't great in the matchup.   I don't know what is in your main deck, point is you have a relevant card that shuts down what the treasure cruise deck wants to do.  

How are you doomed for boarding in cantriping graveyard hate vs these cards?   Do you not understand the basics of sideboarding?  If I have 1 card that shuts down 4 of your cards, then playing my one card is a smart thing to do.  If I have 2 cards that shut down 4 of your cards, and mine cantrip, then I am winning.  Like how stony silence is boarded in vs birthing pod in modern. Shut off the engine, shut down the deck.  In this case you shut down the engine and draw a card in the process.  It's also like saying RiP is bad vs tarmagofy if it is the only graveyard strategy on both sides.  Well, it's actually great vs Goyf because they are shut down until the card is gone from the board.  

of course you were able to cast dig through time vs a lodestone, sphere and a useless trinisphere.  If I played relic and immediately started tapping it, would you have been able to do that?  Absolutely not.  If I counted up your graveyard and did reasonable math, I would be able to always keep you off it.  And you are on bomberman no less, an actual graveyard strategy.  

[fsecco]

If you bring graveyard hate against MonoU, for example, to help you against 2 Digs, you're losing this game. If I'm playing Bomberman or Grixis with Digs, then maybe you could get some value out of it, but only if you use that to remove Lotus or to hurt Y. Will.

Against Delver, if you're bringing graveyard hate against a tempo based deck, my call is that you'll be punched in the face by flying Insects and hasteful Monks a lot. It's a sideboard card that actually doesn't attack their main plan. I'm sure Treasure Cruise is awesome in the deck, but he's probably casting 1 or 2 per game, and that means they're not, at all, their main plan.

If you bring sideboard cards in that don't attack their main game plan, then I think you're the one misunderstanding SB (of course, if you have blanks in your MD for that matchup, you better bring in something that could hurt them, but I'm not counting those odd cases)

[dangerlinto]

If you bring sideboard cards in that don't attack their main game plan, then I think you're the one misunderstanding SB (of course, if you have blanks in your MD for that matchup, you better bring in something that could hurt them, but I'm not counting those odd cases)

Exactly this.   

[MaximumCDawg]

I agree with the crowd that thinks bringing your focused yard hate, like RiP or Leyline, just to beat Delve is a bad idea.  If you cram 4 - 6 cards in your deck to hate out 4 Cruises, then you have already given your opponent the most of the virtual card advantage they were going to get anyway.  Assuming the deck uses Delve and no other yard-focused mechanics, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

Here's a question for you pro-dredge hate folks.  Do you bring in the dredge hate against Tarmogoyf?  How does that work out for ya?

[dangerlinto]

All true, but let's not forget the half-baked yard hate in cards like Joten Grunt and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and less half-baked haters like Spirit of the Lab.  If Cruise gets common, these cards look much more attractive as part of your hatebear.dec.

I just wanted to address all these, but generally - yes, putting the hate on a bod works well. 

However, with grunt you run into problems where I can actually kill your grunt by delving - it's a two-way street there.  Pale Curtain only works on permanents going to the yard, and so is only any good against mid-late game fetchlands. 

Spirit is just awesome if you don't want to draw extra cards anyway but you probably are just running it main-deck in a any list that would run it, however, it's not really a part of the discussion at hand because, of course, it's not graveyard hate for TC.  It's card-draw hate.  Card-draw hate is pretty sweet.