Magic Online Vintage Scene

[thisfool]

Hello everyone.

I joined TMD recently and made a brief remark in the introductory thread. I have been happy to get back into vintage magic via MTGO.

For a while, I intended to start a conversation asking how the MTGO vintage metagame differs from that of the paper world. I figured it would be rather underdeveloped as many players were still either building their collections or figuring out how to pilot various lists.

Now, I'm more keen to ask a different question: is there an online metagame? I've never had a problem finding a match in the practice room, but the notable difficulty in getting daily events to fire is unfortunate. Aside from the recent vintage champs event, I don't know how often the vintage reach will extend beyond daily events. Now that vintage masters sales are near their end, it surely can't get any easier to grow the player pool...

Of course, I'm not sure how many TMD users play online, but I'm eager to see or talk about what you expect to happen with the online vintage format.

[Chubby Rain]

Very good question...I have no idea. The metagame was actually pretty robust and dynamic leading up to Vintage Champs but has since died off and I'm kind of puzzled by that. Perhaps people are hiding their tech prior to Vintage Champs. Maybe cheaper fetches will get more people involved. I don't know. 

[fsecco]

Yeah... I bought in a few months ago and haven't been able to play a single daily yet... I played 1 8-man queue and a lot in the practice room, but I was never online on a time a daily actually fired - once we got to 15 and timed out.

I wonder if player-run tournaments are the solution. Maybe organize a weekly small player-run, tournament? I'm up to it.

[diophan]

I suspect the problem is that when the qualifiers and dailies were both up neither fired most of the time. That caused a bunch of people not to bother trying to get into the dailies because they didn't think it would fire, created a snowball effect. If someone wants to pick a few dailies each week that we try to get firing to reverse the trend I'll try and make all the ones I can.

The 2:30 daily did fire today, so that's something at least.

[rickster]

My suspicion is that people played the format and got burned out due to the swingy nature of the format. 

[The Atog Lord]

Well, leading up to the Vintage Championship, there was a large online tournament. Now, you can enter tournaments to win packs of M15. I think the lack of larger tournaments is a big problem for Vintage on MODO.

[fsecco]

Anyone here planning to play the large player-run tournament on the 19th? I think that could be a great start of some kind of solution.

[enderfall]

Well, leading up to the Vintage Championship, there was a large online tournament. Now, you can enter tournaments to win packs of M15. I think the lack of larger tournaments is a big problem for Vintage on MODO.

Rich,

I hope that you can convince Mike Turian that this is our problem. I've told him a couple of times that Vintage really needs larger tournaments, but despite his being open with me in the past on pre-Vintage Classic, he's ignored me on this matter. Maybe someone of your stature, and the fact that you can represent the thought process of many paper to digital converts, can talk some sense into him?

[thecrav]

Now, I'm more keen to ask a different question: is there an online metagame?

I don't get to play as much as I'd like but I've noticed somethign interesting on MTGO. When I play, I tend to play against the same deck 50-75% of the time - but only for about a week at a time. A couple weeks ago, it was BUG Fish. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of Grixis control, especially with Notion Thief blowing me out.

I'm curious as to the cause of this. Perhaps a lot of new players jumping on the deck they saw some big name play?

Rich,

I hope that you can convince Mike Turian that this is our problem. I've told him a couple of times that Vintage really needs larger tournaments, but despite his being open with me in the past on pre-Vintage Classic, he's ignored me on this matter. Maybe someone of your stature, and the fact that you can represent the thought process of many paper to digital converts, can talk some sense into him?

At least on the prizes front, if you're on twitter, join the conversation. Worth is actively asking for input on what people would rather win than these shitty packs

[Arianeira]

With real life the only daily I can really play in is the 9:30 pm est one on week days which hasn't fired the last few times I tried to queue for it. 

I Tend to be out most weekends but sometimes will be back in time to play in a one.   I was able to get back for that one premiere event that fired.

If MOCs promos were better, people would be hitting dailies trying to get QPs to get them.   Show and Tell was a good choice.  Crucible of Worlds and Entomb just aren't that played.   Things like  Wasteland, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, would be better.

I think they should have bigger events once in awhile as well.   Makes things more interesting then just dailies that award packs of M15.  Although you can just trade those to bots for tix to trade for cards you actually want.

[aahz]

It is becoming increasingly clear that I am not welcome in this future of Vintage online, nor, in my estimation, am I the only one.

For me to even consider playing on MTGO, there would have to be a non-shitty interface that runs natively on Linux systems. Wine is for me to drink, not to poorly run garbage software that costs over a grand to just play what I already own in paper.

Quite frankly, the cost to buy into the virtual cards to play Vintage on MTGO is obscene (compare to ANY video game), though I can understand those who want to play Vintage and have no other alternative. But there is this sinking feeling that you're all being played by WotC. It's exactly your desperation to play more Vintage that is being monetized here and it seems really sad.

If the software didn't suck and I could reliably run it on my computer without hassle, I'd happily pay a reasonable monthly subscription fee to play Vintage online. But I'm not paying >$1000 up front (no, I will not waste my time drafting and/or playing crappy formats to work up to Vintage cards) and still have to deal with all the glitches and examples of how not to design software, which doesn't even support my operating system anyway so there is also all the overhead of running MTGO on a virtual machine and/or emulator just to add insult to injury.

No thanks. WotC has made it explicitly clear that they don't want me to buy into their online product. My kind are not welcome, only those who gleefully sacrifice their spoils of war to get that blood funnel pumping directly to the cabal coffers, but that seems like such a cruel bargain in which only Hasbro has the last laugh).

From my perspective, doing basically ANYTHING ELSE besides buying into MTGO has infinitely more EV.

[ErtaiAdept]

It is becoming increasingly clear that I am not welcome in this future of Vintage online, nor, in my estimation, am I the only one.

For me to even consider playing on MTGO, there would have to be a non-shitty interface that runs natively on Linux systems. Wine is for me to drink, not to poorly run garbage software that costs over a grand to just play what I already own in paper.

Quite frankly, the cost to buy into the virtual cards to play Vintage on MTGO is obscene (compare to ANY video game), though I can understand those who want to play Vintage and have no other alternative. But there is this sinking feeling that you're all being played by WotC. It's exactly your desperation to play more Vintage that is being monetized here and it seems really sad.

If the software didn't suck and I could reliably run it on my computer without hassle, I'd happily pay a reasonable monthly subscription fee to play Vintage online. But I'm not paying >$1000 up front (no, I will not waste my time drafting and/or playing crappy formats to work up to Vintage cards) and still have to deal with all the glitches and examples of how not to design software, which doesn't even support my operating system anyway so there is also all the overhead of running MTGO on a virtual machine and/or emulator just to add insult to injury.

No thanks. WotC has made it explicitly clear that they don't want me to buy into their online product. My kind are not welcome, only those who gleefully sacrifice their spoils of war to get that blood funnel pumping directly to the cabal coffers, but that seems like such a cruel bargain in which only Hasbro has the last laugh).

From my perspective, doing basically ANYTHING ELSE besides buying into MTGO has infinitely more EV.

I've been having this same sinking feeling for a while.  I on the other hand did buy into power on MTGO early when the prices were reasonable, but have found that this is the cheapest part of playing vintage online.  Looking at finishing out any sort of reasonable deck will run me a significantly larger portion of cash, that I can't afford.

My original plan was to build a budget deck, and then use winnings to work up to better cards, but the EV of the events means that will likely take 3-4 years to be able to build the deck that I want (especially considering how rarely the dailies actually fire).

I'm at the point where I'm going to cut my losses and sell out of the few things I have spent money on, and going back to strictly paper.

[The Atog Lord]

In terms of expected value, I doubt my Power will ever pay for itself. Whereas, my 60 tix Legacy burn deck has already paid for itself by winning three dailies.

[enderfall]

While I know that it's not a small up front cost, do people realize you can sell these digital cards whenever you want to stop playing? Prices will slowly increase over time; they always have for Eternal cards, even online. You might not make a huge profit, or even any profit at all, but you can generally get back everything that you put in if you wait long enough. It's no different than paper, really. Paper might be more of an investment, but you can still sell your cards back, digital, or not.

[ErtaiAdept]

While I know that it's not a small up front cost, do people realize you can sell these digital cards whenever you want to stop playing? Prices will slowly increase over time; they always have for Eternal cards, even online. You might not make a huge profit, or even any profit at all, but you can generally get back everything that you put in if you wait long enough. It's no different than paper, really. Paper might be more of an investment, but you can still sell your cards back, digital, or not.

My only concern with this is that you will never see the value in eternal cards on MTGO like you do in paper if the reserved list doesn't apply.  If demand gets high enough, then another set can just be 'printed'.  For me anyway, I'm aware that I could sell out at any time, but right now it's money that I have tied up in something that is doing literally nothing for me (since there is no worth while outlet for playing).  And if I wanted to play just for the sake of playing, there are applications on which I can do that for free.

[dangerlinto]

While I know that it's not a small up front cost, do people realize you can sell these digital cards whenever you want to stop playing? Prices will slowly increase over time; they always have for Eternal cards, even online. You might not make a huge profit, or even any profit at all, but you can generally get back everything that you put in if you wait long enough. It's no different than paper, really. Paper might be more of an investment, but you can still sell your cards back, digital, or not.

My only concern with this is that you will never see the value in price of eternal cards on MTGO like you do in paper if the reserved list doesn't apply.  If demand gets high enough, then another set can just be 'printed'.  For me anyway, I'm aware that I could sell out at any time, but right now it's money that I have tied up in something that is doing literally nothing for me (since there is no worth while outlet for playing).  And if I wanted to play just for the sake of playing, there are applications on which I can do that for free.

Fixed that for you.

"Value" is a subjective term.   It also includes such awesome things as "getting entertainment from" or "able to win prizes in a tournament i could participate in" that a paper Black Lotus would have 0 value for a good many people.  

[vaughnbros]

While I know that it's not a small up front cost, do people realize you can sell these digital cards whenever you want to stop playing? Prices will slowly increase over time; they always have for Eternal cards, even online. You might not make a huge profit, or even any profit at all, but you can generally get back everything that you put in if you wait long enough. It's no different than paper, really. Paper might be more of an investment, but you can still sell your cards back, digital, or not.

My only concern with this is that you will never see the value in price of eternal cards on MTGO like you do in paper if the reserved list doesn't apply.  If demand gets high enough, then another set can just be 'printed'.  For me anyway, I'm aware that I could sell out at any time, but right now it's money that I have tied up in something that is doing literally nothing for me (since there is no worth while outlet for playing).  And if I wanted to play just for the sake of playing, there are applications on which I can do that for free.

Fixed that for you.

"Value" is a subjective term.   It also includes such awesome things as "getting entertainment from" or "able to win prizes in a tournament i could participate in" that a paper Black Lotus would have 0 value for a good many people.  

Vintage Masters II could easily drop the prices from where they are right now.  There's nothing preventing me from selling back my Xbox One and the games I bought for it either.  So the argument that you can sell the cards back is kind of mute.  Especially considering the entry cost for an xbox one and multiple games is cheaper than buying into vintage online.  The interface is pitiful and is on par with video games from 1995 so it really can't compete at all with a top of the line gaming system.  It just adds insult to injury when Duel of the planeswalkers is a Mtg game that has an infinitely better interface and with the promo included in the price its almost free to play.

[dangerlinto]

While I know that it's not a small up front cost, do people realize you can sell these digital cards whenever you want to stop playing? Prices will slowly increase over time; they always have for Eternal cards, even online. You might not make a huge profit, or even any profit at all, but you can generally get back everything that you put in if you wait long enough. It's no different than paper, really. Paper might be more of an investment, but you can still sell your cards back, digital, or not.

My only concern with this is that you will never see the value in price of eternal cards on MTGO like you do in paper if the reserved list doesn't apply.  If demand gets high enough, then another set can just be 'printed'.  For me anyway, I'm aware that I could sell out at any time, but right now it's money that I have tied up in something that is doing literally nothing for me (since there is no worth while outlet for playing).  And if I wanted to play just for the sake of playing, there are applications on which I can do that for free.

Fixed that for you.

"Value" is a subjective term.   It also includes such awesome things as "getting entertainment from" or "able to win prizes in a tournament i could participate in" that a paper Black Lotus would have 0 value for a good many people.  

Vintage Masters II could easily drop the prices from where they are right now.  There's nothing preventing me from selling back my Xbox One and the games I bought for it either.  So the argument that you can sell the cards back is kind of mute.  Especially considering the entry cost for an xbox one and multiple games is cheaper than buying into vintage online.  The interface is pitiful and is on par with video games from 1995 so it really can't compete at all with a top of the line gaming system.  It just adds insult to injury when Duel of the planeswalkers is a Mtg game that has an infinitely better interface and with the promo included in the price its almost free to play.

Not really sure why you're quoting me but I'll happily refute your points

1) You can sell your cards.  For real money.  I've done it - twice.  The last time I sold all my foils and others and walked away with $6K.  Not 6K tickets, $6K in my bank account.  You can feel free to convince yourself in any way you choose that this is not the reality, and while the effort is slightly more (because turning tickets into cash takes times and patience) it's not so much when you are up in the thousands. (also, I'm not sure english is your 1st language, hard to know on the forums but the word you are looking for is 'moot'.  'Mute' means without sound)

2) MTGO interface does suck.  But you know what sucks even worse?  A program that has an interface programmed for only certain cards - like DOTP does.   They aren't even worth comparing because no one in their right mind would ever try to program something like MTGO using the interface from DOTP.  If you enjoy playing DOTP, more power to you but personally I like playing with the wide breadth of all magics' intricacies.

[enderfall]

Why are we comparing Xbox and MTGO? They do entirely different things. It's like saying that I can get by without a toaster because I have a microwave. Maybe you can live without toast in your life, but you can't toast anything in a microwave.

Xbox lets you play other games. MTGO lets you play MAGIC. (DotP is not Magic, it's a demonstration of Magic)

EDIT: Also, a used Xbox is worth considerably less than a new Xbox. The price for Xbox will never, ever, increase. It's like a used Corolla. MTGO is more like a used classic muscle car. It can, and likely will, appreciate with age if you take care of it. If you stay on top of reprints, you can usually cut your losses pretty well.

Another thing, VMA 2, if it ever happens, will not happen until 2016, at the earliest. There isn't much left for WotC to reprint in VMA 2, so I really find it more likely that they make a Legacy Masters... which would obviously not include Vintage-only cards.

[vaughnbros]

Why are we comparing Xbox and MTGO? They do entirely different things. It's like saying that I can get by without a toaster because I have a microwave. Maybe you can live without toast in your life, but you can't toast anything in a microwave.

Xbox lets you play other games. MTGO lets you play MAGIC. (DotP is not Magic, it's a demonstration of Magic)

Definition of a video game: "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."  So MTGO is in fact a video game just like every other game played on a console or computer.  Paper magic is an entirely different game from MTGO.  Its a SOCIAL game, requiring you to interact with other human beings in person.  Paper magic only has to compete with other card games, like World of Warcraft TCG, Pokemon TCG, and the like.  MTGO has much stiffer competition in a much larger video game market, like Call of Duty, Online Chess, World of Warcraft, and Starcraft.  If you prefer to play MTGO over the over video games that's fine, but its still a video game.

1) You can sell your cards.  For real money.  I've done it - twice.  The last time I sold all my foils and others and walked away with $6K.  Not 6K tickets, $6K in my bank account.  You can feel free to convince yourself in any way you choose that this is not the reality, and while the effort is slightly more (because turning tickets into cash takes times and patience) it's not so much when you are up in the thousands.

Great that you sold your cards for real money, but you also put real money into them.  My point is that I can sell other things for real money too.  I can sell my laptop for real money.  I can sell my car for real money.  That doesn't change that I have to put money into it.  There is no guarantee, like the reserved list, that MTGO card prices can only go up.  In fact the complete contrary seems to be the case for MTGO where they have released Force of will, and wasteland multiple times in an effort to combat their prices.

2) MTGO interface does suck.  But you know what sucks even worse?  A program that has an interface programmed for only certain cards - like DOTP does.   They aren't even worth comparing because no one in their right mind would ever try to program something like MTGO using the interface from DOTP.  If you enjoy playing DOTP, more power to you but personally I like playing with the wide breadth of all magics' intricacies.

How about other interfaces like cockatrice and other free to play software of magic?  Or other card games that have been able to successfully build an online program, like hearthstone?  The point was that its not impossible to create a good interface if the resources are put there.  Wizards just refuses to invest in it, likely because they realized people will pay thousands of dollars regardless of how terrible the interface is.  I personally refuse to give my money to a company that doesn't put any effort forth.

(also, I'm not sure english is your 1st language, hard to know on the forums but the word you are looking for is 'moot'.  'Mute' means without sound)

Math is my 1st language, sorry the intricacies of an inefficient language, English, are lost on me.

[Hrishi]

I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that there is honestly no reason prices need to be this high to get into Vintage. On paper the reserved list is a reason for this. On MTGO? If Wizards actually believes the future of Vintage is on MTGO there is absolutely no excuse for it being this expensive. Why is a Black Lotus over 200 bucks? Last I checked, a full set of power is something like $700, which basically sets the lowest point of entry at something like $1000 if you factor in forces, drains, duals and everything. That's insane. Anybody who doesn't already play vintage would find it ridiculous to even try getting into it. I can never tell my friends who have never tried the format to buy into Vintage in good faith. Consider this, most people are simply looking at it as a game, not an investment. The fact that it can be an investment is largely irrelevant to many people.

Taking the average costs of decks that appear on mtggoldfish, the average price of modern is ~476 tickets. For Vintage it is ~1162 tickets. You can argue all you like that it's cheaper than playing on paper, but that does not take into account that most paper tournaments are proxy events. Nobody but an existing vintage player could legitimately dump over $1000 into virtual cards. How is vintage ever going to attract new blood with such prices?

I was really excited for VMA. I have a sizable group of friends who play MTG where I am the only vintage player. I was hoping VMA would be an opportunity to introduce many of them into vintage. At those prices they're just going to laugh at me for suggesting it.

[enderfall]

Why are we comparing Xbox and MTGO? They do entirely different things. It's like saying that I can get by without a toaster because I have a microwave. Maybe you can live without toast in your life, but you can't toast anything in a microwave.

Xbox lets you play other games. MTGO lets you play MAGIC. (DotP is not Magic, it's a demonstration of Magic)

Definition of a video game: "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."  So MTGO is in fact a video game just like every other game played on a console or computer.  Paper magic is an entirely different game from MTGO.  Its a SOCIAL game, requiring you to interact with other human beings in person.  Paper magic only has to compete with other card games, like World of Warcraft TCG, Pokemon TCG, and the like.  MTGO has much stiffer competition in a much larger video game market, like Call of Duty, Online Chess, World of Warcraft, and Starcraft.  If you prefer to play MTGO over the over video games that's fine, but its still a video game.

If that is your view on MTGO, then I guess there is absolutely no point for you to even discuss it then, no? You aren't ever going to play it, so just leave well enough alone.

[enderfall]

I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that there is honestly no reason prices need to be this high to get into Vintage. On paper the reserved list is a reason for this. On MTGO? If Wizards actually believes the future of Vintage is on MTGO there is absolutely no excuse for it being this expensive. Why is a Black Lotus over 200 bucks? Last I checked, a full set of power is something like $700, which basically sets the lowest point of entry at something like $1000 if you factor in forces, drains, duals and everything. That's insane. Anybody who doesn't already play vintage would find it ridiculous to even try getting into it. I can never tell my friends who have never tried the format to buy into Vintage in good faith. Consider this, most people are simply looking at it as a game, not an investment. The fact that it can be an investment is largely irrelevant to many people.

As far as the price of MTGO goes, there is a cost to create those digital objects. That cost is for $25 and you get the opportunity to open some cards that are desirable to other people. You may also get cards that are not desirable to other people. Just because it is digital doesn't lessen the fact that it costs money in order to get those cards to be "opened". It's no different than paper... Why is a piece of cardboard worth ANYTHING? I recycle cardboard every two weeks when the recycling truck goes by my house.

Look, I get that some people will never understand the digital revolution and how companies can create a product that is nothing more than a series of 1's and 0's stored on a bunch of silicon chips. The reality is that many, many people have understood the entrainment proposition that digital objects offer. If you don't feel there is value in digital objects, that is fine, but please don't act like there shouldn't be any value to them

[youhavenogame]

Great that you sold your cards for real money, but you also put real money into them.  My point is that I can sell other things for real money too.  I can sell my laptop for real money.  I can sell my car for real money.  That doesn't change that I have to put money into it.  There is no guarantee, like the reserved list, that MTGO card prices can only go up.  In fact the complete contrary seems to be the case for MTGO where they have released Force of will, and wasteland multiple times in an effort to combat their prices.

Yeah, yeah, but your laptop or your car will have lost 50% of their value after a year, while virtual Magic cards will be kept in an equilimbrium at least. Wotc has made it pretty clear that they are willing to reprint even the biggest of money cards, but these cards rebound at some point. And even though you might lose on some reprints - anything that is not getting reprinted has good chances of rising. All arguments aside, your point of sinking money is just void.

Actually, everyone I've seen leaving Modo went away with more money than they put into it. Of course it costed them time, but it's up to everyone on their own how to spend their time, and as long as they got enjoyment out of the time everyone should be a winner.

I guess the biggest thing that bothers me is that there is honestly no reason prices need to be this high to get into Vintage. On paper the reserved list is a reason for this. On MTGO? If Wizards actually believes the future of Vintage is on MTGO there is absolutely no excuse for it being this expensive. Why is a Black Lotus over 200 bucks?

Because... it's Black Lotus? THE most iconic of the game? Well, to be fair it's mostly about dealers, speculators and hoarders. Magic: The Stockmarket is a very real game, too.

... but that does not take into account that most paper tournaments are proxy events. Nobody but an existing vintage player could legitimately dump over $1000 into virtual cards. How is vintage ever going to attract new blood with such prices?

There are no "real" proxy tournaments in Europe, and by real I'm talking about the ones with decent payout.
Btw I didn't play Vintage before P9 release on Modo. And I never planned to either. Now I'm saving for paper P9... anyway, to attract new players we first have to make sure that events fire in a realistic rate and then spread the word by telling everyone of our paper buddies how awesome the format is.

I was really excited for VMA. I have a sizable group of friends who play MTG where I am the only vintage player. I was hoping VMA would be an opportunity to introduce many of them into vintage. At those prices they're just going to laugh at me for suggesting it.

Did you and your friends really expect them to cost less?

[Hrishi]

Look, I get that some people will never understand the digital revolution and how companies can create a product that is nothing more than a series of 1's and 0's stored on a bunch of silicon chips. The reality is that many, many people have understood the entrainment proposition that digital objects offer. If you don't feel there is value in digital objects, that is fine, but please don't act like there shouldn't be any value to them

You are mistaken. I own plenty of digital items that hold huge value, both on MTGO as well as on other games. In fact, some of my paper cards come from selling these digital items because their value is so high. I have no problem with digital items having intrinsic value. I have a problem when this value hamstrings the format's growth because the items are necessary to even play the format. I would not care if a foil Black Lotus was worth $10,000 or higher because it's not necessary. I do care that a regular one is worth $200 because you cannot play Vintage without it. How do you convince somebody who has never played vintage before to dump that much money in?

I have been trying to get many friends into Vintage and cost is always why nobody will ever try it. I don't see how this is an unreasonable problem. Why is Vintage the most expensive format? Why can it not be the cheapest format? Of course, that's largely impossible but it's worth imagining how big Vintage could be if it was the cheapest format to get into.

If you believe my concerns are unreasonable, please tell me why. I am trying to get people who have never played Vintage before to try it. These are the problems I face. Shouldn't the only problem be whether they enjoy the format or not?

Play Terra Nova then, no Lotus needed!

Too bad the Wastelands probably cost more than that Lotus.

[Samoht]

Look, I get that some people will never understand the digital revolution and how companies can create a product that is nothing more than a series of 1's and 0's stored on a bunch of silicon chips. The reality is that many, many people have understood the entrainment proposition that digital objects offer. If you don't feel there is value in digital objects, that is fine, but please don't act like there shouldn't be any value to them

You are mistaken. I own plenty of digital items that hold huge value, both on MTGO as well as on other games. In fact, some of my paper cards come from selling these digital items because their value is so high. I have no problem with digital items having intrinsic value. I have a problem when this value hamstrings the format's growth because the items are necessary to even play the format. I would not care if a foil Black Lotus was worth $10,000 or higher because it's not necessary. I do care that a regular one is worth $200 because you cannot play Vintage without it. How do you convince somebody who has never played vintage before to dump that much money in? I have been trying to get many friends into Vintage and cost is always why nobody will ever try it.

Play Terra Nova then, no Lotus needed!

[enderfall]

Look, I get that some people will never understand the digital revolution and how companies can create a product that is nothing more than a series of 1's and 0's stored on a bunch of silicon chips. The reality is that many, many people have understood the entrainment proposition that digital objects offer. If you don't feel there is value in digital objects, that is fine, but please don't act like there shouldn't be any value to them

You are mistaken. I own plenty of digital items that hold huge value, both on MTGO as well as on other games. In fact, some of my paper cards come from selling these digital items because their value is so high. I have no problem with digital items having intrinsic value. I have a problem when this value hamstrings the format's growth because the items are necessary to even play the format. I would not care if a foil Black Lotus was worth $10,000 or higher because it's not necessary. I do care that a regular one is worth $200 because you cannot play Vintage without it. How do you convince somebody who has never played vintage before to dump that much money in? I have been trying to get many friends into Vintage and cost is always why nobody will ever try it. I don't see how this is an unreasonable problem. Why is Vintage the most expensive format? Why can it not be the cheapest format? Of course, that's largely impossible but it's worth imagining how big Vintage could be if it was the cheapest format to get into.

Well, I want to play Vintage. I have two avenues to do it. I can get a divorce and spend my entire life savings on paper cards, or I can stay (somewhat) happily married and play Vintage for what amounts to what I can sell off in a yard sale and some birthday/Christmas gifts. MTGO might appear expensive, but for god's sake, let's not pretend that paper is accessible even in the slightest bit.

EDIT: In general, Vintage (and Legacy) are expensive, not just because of the reserve list, but because the cards are good, and are unlikely to ever be outclassed by new cards. Thus, the cards hold value as people don't trade them away and over time, cards disappear in shoe boxes, the garbage, etc.). Consider rotation of standard sets. Once the new sets rotate out of standard, only the cards that are going to see play in EDH/eternal formats hold any value at all. The rest of the cards drop like a rock.

[vaughnbros]

Why are we comparing Xbox and MTGO? They do entirely different things. It's like saying that I can get by without a toaster because I have a microwave. Maybe you can live without toast in your life, but you can't toast anything in a microwave.

Xbox lets you play other games. MTGO lets you play MAGIC. (DotP is not Magic, it's a demonstration of Magic)

Definition of a video game: "a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen."  So MTGO is in fact a video game just like every other game played on a console or computer.  Paper magic is an entirely different game from MTGO.  Its a SOCIAL game, requiring you to interact with other human beings in person.  Paper magic only has to compete with other card games, like World of Warcraft TCG, Pokemon TCG, and the like.  MTGO has much stiffer competition in a much larger video game market, like Call of Duty, Online Chess, World of Warcraft, and Starcraft.  If you prefer to play MTGO over the over video games that's fine, but its still a video game.

If that is your view on MTGO, then I guess there is absolutely no point for you to even discuss it then, no? You aren't ever going to play it, so just leave well enough alone.

If they have no intention of fixing the problems, then yes it would be a waste of time to discuss it.  But as I elaborated on my previous posts MTGO vintage basically has one major problem:
The price > The quality (for me at least)

The price point is EXTREMELY high for a video game (a fact), and quality in my opinion is about an average video game (The awesomeness of the game of magic balances out the horrid interface).  If the two are ever equal, which sadly I doubt, I would be willing to buy into MTGO vintage.

I do play pauper online because: The quality of MTGO Pauper > $20 spent elsewhere

[Hrishi]

Well, I want to play Vintage. I have two avenues to do it. I can get a divorce and spend my entire life savings on paper cards, or I can stay (somewhat) happily married and play Vintage for what amounts to what I can sell off in a yard sale and some birthday/Christmas gifts. MTGO might appear expensive, but for god's sake, let's not pretend that paper is accessible even in the slightest bit.

I think paper is very accessible when basically every tournament have a proxy limit of 15 or higher actually. Obviously, this is in spite of WOTC, not because of them. Of course, that opens up a slew of other problems that I won't get into, but I think you are exaggerating the cost of being able to play Vintage in person. I only started playing MTG last year and I have been playing Vintage every 2 weeks in paper events. If I didn't decide to buy power, I spent less on paper than I did on my MTGO collection to play Vintage online. But this doesn't really matter, does it?

I am aware that I was a huge outliner in joining MTG in order to play Vintage. Most people are not like that. Shouldn't we be making Vintage attractive enough for people to want to give it a try? Price seems to be the logical first step. People who already play Vintage on paper don't really have a reason to buy in online for the most part (some still do, of course). It's people who don't actively play the format already who need to get in to grow the format, right? If WOTC believes the reserved list makes it so Vintage's future is on MTGO, shouldn't they be attempting to make prices incredibly low? Not try to suck every last dollar out of existing Vintage players?

[enderfall]

Well, it's clear that your entire premise is based on the fact that you consider MTGO a "video game". If you consider MTGO a video game, then there is no arguing your opinion on that level. However, if you realize that you get to play Magic, which is not a "video game", then you'd start to see why MTGO is also not a "video game". In no world can you dress up like Batman and start fighting crime like you can in Batman: Arkham City. Batman is a video game; MTGO is not. Period.