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Author Topic: Jeskai Ascendancy  (Read 25856 times)
enderfall
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« Reply #120 on: December 12, 2014, 11:27:06 am »

Ugh, another frustrating 2-2 with Ascendancy.

...*snip*

Ingot Chewers were awful often clogging up my hand but the decks I played against were artifact light. It's a work in progress and I would appreciate any insight. I will probably play it in another Daily as it seems so close to breaking out.

Really think Dack should be there instead of those Chewers. Dack is never "dead", and while it's not as flexible and blunt against Workshop, it still can win the game against Workshop in game 1 if left unanswered. 3x Dack might be too many, but maybe 2x Dack and 1x Pyroblast to help with the Blue match-ups. Or, 1 each of Dack, Pyroblast, and Bolt?

Is Izzet Charm pulling it's weight?
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Coopes
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« Reply #121 on: December 12, 2014, 11:45:13 am »

light green splash perhaps for some main deck grudges? ( didn't see if this had been discussed/ruled out as a bad option )

easy to discard while going off, 1 mana flashback. splash shouldn't be too hard to add for just this card and how much filtering the deck has anyway.

dacks 3 mana doesn't excite me as much, but ive only played 1-2 matches with this deck :s
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #122 on: December 12, 2014, 04:58:35 pm »

Ideas Unbound is an interesting idea. The main issue I see with it is that in Modern Treasure Cruise is clearly the best draw engine (with Dig a close second) whereas Vintage has many more options (Gush, Jace, Ancestral, Library). You can mitigate the inherent card disadvantage of Ideas Unbound better in Modern, but in Vintage your opponent is more likely to outdraw you and if they counter the follow up Cruise it can put you in an insurmountable hole. I do think is worth testing though as looting has become so much more powerful with dredge. I have also beat leyline of the void and rest in peace with the deck as Jeskai Ascendancy can pull off a super Glorious Anthem impersonation with Pyromancer tokens. The quality of the draw spells in Vintage makes the deck less dependent on Treasure Cruise in such situations.

I had a Dack in before throwing in Ingot Chewers. He kind of acts like an extra Jeskai Ascendancy when you don't have Fatesticher and I definately missed him in the deck. I also think omitting Pyroblast was a mistake and 1-2 is correct MD and up to 3 after sideboard. Pyroblast is everywhere right which makes 4 Mental Missteps seems correct to me. This is designed somewhat for the MTGO metagame in which Shops is underrepresented and Blue decks are overrepresented because of the cost of Wastelands and it being easier to port Blue decks from Legacy into Vintage.

Izzet Charm is similar to what The White Dragon was saying with Ideas Unbound - the looting is insane with Treasure Cruise and I find all of the modes relevant during games. Three might be too many and two is probably a better number. I started out at 1 and kept on increasing them. It helps fuel your first Treasure Cruise and after that helps to Chain Cruises together by discarding the excess lands. I have been really impressed by it.

Green splash with grudges has been discussed as part of the more creature centric build. The issue I have is you primarily want it against Shops and it can open you up to wasteland. I generally want to fetch a basic Island against shops, but then following with Tropical Island would mean I need 4 lands/Moxen total to cast Ascendancy. Though, I suppose you could view it as more of a bonus with a singleton Trop to fetch when relevant. Or get more creative with duals and throw in Taiga/Savannah. It's a good idea.

Dack is pretty good in my experience. I had actually been siding out Fatestichers and trying to win by killing most of my opponents threats while just burying them in card advantage. It's actually worked against shops a couple of times and Dack facilitates this plan (plus they tend to name Fatesticher with Revoker and not Dack). Problem is that it's hard to get testing in agains Shops online because of how underrepresented it is so this has been based on relatively small sample size. Thanks for the comments. I'm glad to see that you are back playing in tournaments on MODO, Coopes.

 
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #123 on: December 12, 2014, 06:02:08 pm »

1) Ideas Unbound is an interesting idea. The main issue I see with it is that in Modern Treasure Cruise is clearly the best draw engine (with Dig a close second) whereas Vintage has many more options (Gush, Jace, Ancestral, Library). You can mitigate the inherent card disadvantage of Ideas Unbound better in Modern, but in Vintage your opponent is more likely to outdraw you and if they counter the follow up Cruise it can put you in an insurmountable hole. I do think is worth testing though as looting has become so much more powerful with dredge. I have also beat leyline of the void and rest in peace with the deck as Jeskai Ascendancy can pull off a super Glorious Anthem impersonation with Pyromancer tokens. The quality of the draw spells in Vintage makes the deck less dependent on Treasure Cruise in such situations.

...

2) Izzet Charm is similar to what The White Dragon was saying with Ideas Unbound - the looting is insane with Treasure Cruise and I find all of the modes relevant during games. Three might be too many and two is probably a better number. I started out at 1 and kept on increasing them. It helps fuel your first Treasure Cruise and after that helps to Chain Cruises together by discarding the excess lands. I have been really impressed by it.

3) Green splash with grudges has been discussed as part of the more creature centric build. The issue I have is you primarily want it against Shops and it can open you up to wasteland. I generally want to fetch a basic Island against shops, but then following with Tropical Island would mean I need 4 lands/Moxen total to cast Ascendancy. Though, I suppose you could view it as more of a bonus with a singleton Trop to fetch when relevant. Or get more creative with duals and throw in Taiga/Savannah. It's a good idea.

4) Dack is pretty good in my experience. I had actually been siding out Fatestichers and trying to win by killing most of my opponents threats while just burying them in card advantage. It's actually worked against shops a couple of times and Dack facilitates this plan (plus they tend to name Fatesticher with Revoker and not Dack). Problem is that it's hard to get testing in agains Shops online because of how underrepresented it is so this has been based on relatively small sample size. Thanks for the comments. I'm glad to see that you are back playing in tournaments on MODO, Coopes.

There are a few points to make here:

1) IU has proven very solid in my testing (albeit mostly modern) and I don't mind casting it pre- or post-ascendancy.  It digs and sculpts even without the bonus of fueling cruise (though it does add +4 to the grave on turn 2).  Pitching fatestitchers is what you want to be doing anyway, so it helps there, cruise aside.  It might just be outclassed in vintage, but it's another option.  I think it is second only to cruise in a Modern ascendancy deck.

2) Izzet is similar to what IU does as far as feeding cruise, but it is VASTLY inferior when going off or for sculpting in general.  On an empty hand, you can just ancestral, play out the 3, and discard nothing (or just what is left like a stitcher/extra lands).  Post-ascendancy, it's not even a contest how much better IU is.  You are basically running 4x UU costed ancestrals, not filtering.  I find that ascendancy can crap out at times if you draw multiple creatures/lands, and with izzet you sometimes have to pitch cantrips.  IU is straight draw 3 in this case.  I have found the shock to be somewhat relevant.  The filter is also relevant.  But I have found the spell pierce often irrelevant or uncastable.  It's biggest use as a counter is pushing through Jeskai, and that would cost 5 mana which is unlikely.  Decay or leylines or 1 drop answers are more common than anything a 2 mana counter can stop.  I actually run a few pierce since the 1 mana difference is the grand canyon in practice many games.

3) I think in vintage green is unnecessary.  In modern, I've found it to be mandatory.  In vintage, you have moxen and such to play fast and have FoW to stop spheres and such.  In modern, there's none of that.  The deck really CAN'T go off before turn 4 in modern unless you run mana dorks.  Mana dorks also dodge the grave hate.  I have found pyromancers to be decent in the vintage version, but crap in the modern version.  In modern, it's a weaker version of delver, and as you are "going off" to churn out tokens, they don't have haste and you will most likely win with stitchers/birds anyway.  Glittering wish is also huge.  You flat out need it in modern since you have no black tutors or ET.  On that note, ET could be a very good inclusion in Vintage to stay 3 color.  It gets you JA, lotus, or other, and with all the cantrips, it's as good as a DT that costs UW (or just W and -2 with probe).  To fight shops, hurkylls is by far the best answer.  You can't really win picking off one artifact at a time.  You need to do the storm approach and EoT sweep, then win. I don't think the vulnerability to wastes by adding green offsets the bonus of grudge.  Hurkylls > Green.

4) Dack is neat, but expensive.  Very hard to cast in an already mana-light deck, and sorcery speed. As I said, I think hurkylls is the real answer vs shops.  That said, it's not at all a bad card and could fit just fine.  I think the chewers are good in general, but maybe not best in this deck since they don't trigger ascendancy and don't solve the multiple-lock-piece problem.  And though shops is not an issue in modern, I've found 4x trinisphere to be an excellent trump to the deck in Modern.  A turn 2 trini is almost always GG vs JA in modern.

Sorry to mix modern into vintage, but this deck really crosses formats and I think there's value in seeing what works or doesn't in all the formats here.  The same can't be said for most decks, but JA is a unique beast.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 06:09:19 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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Coopes
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2014, 05:25:36 am »

I've been playing a few daily events with this deck and have cashed the majority of them, here's my current setup : http://imgur.com/N43IrPu

I don't think this is ideal. I think there's a better version of this deck out there...but this has been good enough to have success right now. Part of me wonders if theres a version without fatestitchers that is better. Or something different, who knows....(I have delusions of gushbonding with this deck)
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #125 on: December 24, 2014, 09:27:13 am »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.
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Samoht
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« Reply #126 on: December 24, 2014, 10:29:03 am »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....
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Coopes
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« Reply #127 on: December 24, 2014, 11:35:50 am »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

Curious how it made the deck for you, as when I tried the card it didn't do anything. Without tutors it's not reliable and when you are going off it's not something you want to hit off a probe/cantrip as it stops the combo cold.
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #128 on: December 24, 2014, 03:34:43 pm »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

Saying fastbond does nothing in a gush deck is silly.
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #129 on: December 24, 2014, 03:36:52 pm »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

Curious how it made the deck for you, as when I tried the card it didn't do anything. Without tutors it's not reliable and when you are going off it's not something you want to hit off a probe/cantrip as it stops the combo cold.

Its just another path to victory.  It will always eat a force or misstep.  Fastbond openers just win(or set you up).  I can see how it looks like a stretch, but it works.   
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Samoht
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« Reply #130 on: December 24, 2014, 07:53:37 pm »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

Saying fastbond does nothing in a gush deck is silly.

It won't win you (m)any games without Ascendancy. With it and it's irrelevant. As such, it does nothing for you in this particular build. It's not silly.
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MisterFoote
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« Reply #131 on: December 25, 2014, 06:42:43 pm »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

 
Saying fastbond does nothing in a gush deck is silly.

It won't win you (m)any games without Ascendancy. With it and it's irrelevant. As such, it does nothing for you in this particular build. It's not silly.

I havent looked closely at this exact build, but we were also running pyromancers.  Im still not convinced you understand how fastbond and gush work.  Also gushing into ascendancy is very good.
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Chubby Rain
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« Reply #132 on: December 25, 2014, 08:39:32 pm »

I havent looked closely at this exact build, but we were also running pyromancers.  Im still not convinced you understand how fastbond and gush work.  Also gushing into ascendancy is very good.

I assure you, Tom knows how Gush and Fastbond work. He may have even wrote a book on it.

I do like the discussion and I'm not that quick to dismiss Fastbond. The list Coopes and I have been playing basically keeps the same shell as UR Delver but adds the combo in to provide an additional dimension. I could see starting with a Gush deck and trying to include the combo in that. The problems I see though is that the mana base gets wonky very quickly (or maybe we have a home for Manamorphosis). You need access to all 5 colors and need them to be Islands for Gush. You are also vulnerable to the same hate that Gush is typically vulnerable to. It's an interesting idea and I would like to see the list you've been running.

If you wanted to include Fastbond in the lists Coopes and I have been playing, we typically only run 2-3 Gush. In my experience I have found multiple Gushes to be an awkward draw during the combo as you can only Gush so many times before you run out of lands. Fastbond does help in that regard but normally I want the lands in my hand to pitch to Ascendancy.
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"Is this a Vintage deck or a Cube deck?" "Is it sad that you have to ask?"

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Samoht
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« Reply #133 on: December 26, 2014, 11:48:28 am »

We tested a version that splashed green for only fastbond.  It makes the deck.  I gives you a third win condition.  Between acedancy, fastbond and pyromamcer the deck is in very good shape.  Also cages and fatestitcher is a non-Bo.

Fastbond does nothing for you....

  
Saying fastbond does nothing in a gush deck is silly.

It won't win you (m)any games without Ascendancy. With it and it's irrelevant. As such, it does nothing for you in this particular build. It's not silly.

I havent looked closely at this exact build, but we were also running pyromancers.  Im still not convinced you understand how fastbond and gush work.  Also gushing into ascendancy is very good.


I am keenly aware of the interaction between Gush and Fastbond. I've won many events harnessing the power of that combination of cards. However, what we have to evaluate here is if we can effectively be a deck that just uses Fastbond/Gush while playing 4 Blanks (Ascendancy). It seems unwieldy to have something that shows up in the middle of comboing out that is significantly weaker after we use our initial burst of CA/Filter. If you have already have Ascendancy in play, Fastbond does next to nothing for you. You are already making mana with Fatestitcher and you don't want to lose cards in your hand that you can loot away.

TL:DR Fastbond/Gush is great. Asendancy/Gush is great. Ascendancy/Fastbond not so much.
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