Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Metalworker

[Dice_Box]

Just before I start. I am new to the format, so please if I am missing something just let me know.

This was spoiled today and I remember seeing a few Shop decks that like to go big with Metalworker. Some of them had Karn (Walker) in the build alongside his Silver form. I found that interesting and though it seemed rare, the idea was intriguing to me even if it may not be totally viable. Ugin though, he seems to (at least from what I understand) offer a "Go Big" wincon to decks running Worker. Removal, one sided Deed and a broken Ultimate in a deck that normally only has spells in the side. What are peoples thoughts on this? Am I reading this wrong or can he be a real force for decks built to use his power?

[serracollector]

Sorry I cant see the cards abilities on my dinosaur phone and when I googled it there were two different arts I found (still could not make out the abilities cost and starting counters on either tho) so could you please post its stats? Thank you. Happy Holidays.

[Dice_Box]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Planeswalker - Ugin

+ 2 : Ghostfire
- X : Exile all Coloured Permanents with a CMC at or below X
- 10 : Gain 7 life, draw 7 cards, play up to 7 permanents from your hand

Starting Loyalty (7)

[marcb]

It would be fun to play this in turbotez. The board control is great and sweeping pyromancer tokens while leaving your moxen intact is great

[StanleyAugust]

This card is bananas.

[serracollector]

What is ghostfire? his other abilities are nuts and yes i could def see him being used in metalworker mud. he seems an easy replacement for karn or steel hellkite even.

[Coopes]

What is ghostfire? his other abilities are nuts and yes i could def see him being used in metalworker mud. he seems an easy replacement for karn or steel hellkite even.

3 dmg to target creature or player, was a colorless instant

[TheWhiteDragon]

Wow, this dude is nutso.  Vintage worker could use this.  Modern tron would LOVE this.

[Protoaddict]

Meh. 8 mana is a lot, more so than 7 for Karn which not every deck runs. I would love to think there is some deck out there that is only fast mana and big threats and just tries to windmill them through counter magic, but 8 mana is lots of mana. What if it wasn't a "shops list" and just a big mana list, since shops don't actually pay for the walkers. Landing a karn or ugin turn one can just flat out win the game keep in mind.

5 Moxes
2 Mox Opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Karn
4 Ugin

[gkraigher]

this is the strongest planeswalker to ever be printed.  it basically says you win the game if it gets cast.  problem is, the card is very hard to cast.  

Ugin has a home in modern tron, and I am very excited about what it will do to the metagame of modern.  It even potentially has a home in legacy mud with metalworker.  But as far as vintage is concerned, I don't see it being good - even with metalworker.  In an environment where most of the field is counter magic, dredge, or workshop the card seems bad.  

[gkraigher]

5 Moxes
2 Mox Opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Karn
4 Ugin

+4 metalworker
+3 voltaic key
+1 time vault


sideboard:
+4 defense grid

and some number of tabernacles

[Protoaddict]

I would think that defense grid is a main deck card in this case, since your ugins will get countered at basically all costs if possible.

I mean sure, you can run 4 shops and an academy, but I am not sure the risk rewards side of this is worth it over regular shops. Your game winning cards are much more game winning than shops but your deck is also much more likely to get blown out.

If this strategy was viable, I feel like we would have seen more Karn based Metal Worker lists right? The deck rolls over to null rod, its just so all in to make happen.

That being said, in other formats where Urzatron is viable like Modern this card is absolutely going to be a contender.

[Hrishi]

Spitballing here, but it's not unheard of to ramp into 8 mana. If it truly is a "win if it hits the table" there might be ways to achieve this? Eureka perhaps? TurboTezz style mana acceleration?

[tribet]

Channel is good for ramping.

[WhiteLotus]

it's not unheard of as using heavy cmc spells to end the game in vintage, this has the same cmc as griselbrand or sphinx of the steel wind. Although this has a severe drawback: you can't cheat it into play with the usual suspects that are oath, show and tell, tinker, academy rector (or a reanimation spell) and it isn't even close to cards that fit into this category such as Griselbrand or Omniscience in terms of Ending the game. It seems like a nice card for casual or modern tron but it seems unlikely to see eternal play (unless I am missing something).

If you can't cheat this into play you need something that generates a ton of coloress mana aka Metalworker. Seeing as Dack fayden kicked metalworkers builds out of the meta and those decks didn't even bother to play Karn most of the time, I don't see why that kind of list would want to play this ultra situationnal card(good luck casting that 8 cmc spell through thorns spheres and golems knowing that you cant use MWorkshop to cast it) it's pretty much only castable with like metalworker and a full grip of artifacts (situation in which you probably already won the game anyways).

I think the card is cool and powerful but unfortunately it doesn't fill any niche and it's Planeswalker type + high cmc are too restrictive making it much more unreliable than cards even like Blightsteel colossus. Especially considering it doesn't have as much immediate impact as say Griselbrand (which is usually put into play for 1G or 2U).

If consecrated Sphinx and Inferno titan aren't playable how is this card better?

[msg67183]

it's not unheard of as using heavy cmc spells to end the game in vintage, this has the same cmc as griselbrand or sphinx of the steel wind. Although this has a severe drawback: you can't cheat it into play with the usual suspects that are oath, show and tell, tinker, academy rector (or a reanimation spell) and it isn't even close to cards that fit into this category such as Griselbrand or Omniscience in terms of Ending the game. It seems like a nice card for casual or modern tron but it seems unlikely to see eternal play (unless I am missing something).

If you can't cheat this into play you need something that generates a ton of coloress mana aka Metalworker. Seeing as Dack fayden kicked metalworkers builds out of the meta and those decks didn't even bother to play Karn most of the time, I don't see why that kind of list would want to play this ultra situationnal card(good luck casting that 8 cmc spell through thorns spheres and golems knowing that you cant use MWorkshop to cast it) it's pretty much only castable with like metalworker and a full grip of artifacts (situation in which you probably already won the game anyways).

I think the card is cool and powerful but unfortunately it doesn't fill any niche and it's Planeswalker type + high cmc are too restrictive making it much more unreliable than cards even like Blightsteel colossus. Especially considering it doesn't have as much immediate impact as say Griselbrand (which is usually put into play for 1G or 2U).

If consecrated Sphinx and Inferno titan aren't playable how is this card better?

I've seen people play both Consecrated Sphinx AND Inferno Titan in Vintage...

I feel Ugin will be tried out

[Greg]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is definitely a fascinating planeswalker. Fantastic abilities combined with a lot of initial starting loyalty.

I've hard-cast Griselbrand many, many times during tournament play. I've also watched as several blue pilots hard-cast their Tinker-targets, either organically or assisted by Mana Drain mana. I don't think it's unreasonable to think this card could be a small part of some competitive Vintage deck, though I'm definitely having a hard time picturing it right now.

What's interesting about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, is that there aren't many commonly played cards that can deal with it. Flusterstorm, Misdirection, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, Pyroblast, and Steel Sabotage are all counterspells that don't counter it. What does? Force of Will, Mana Drain, Mindbreak Trap, and Spell Pierce. Duress and Thoughtseize would also preemptively take this card out.

There isn't much available in terms of board removal, either. I can only think of Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, and the seldom-played Vampire Hexmage and Wipe Away. Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker are also fitting options, of course. Maybe it'll soon be time for me to dust off my lone Beast Within.

[Protoaddict]

I think the thing to consider with Ugin is what are you doing when he hits the table and what is your likely gamestate?

The issue I have with him is that yes I can spend 8 mana and slam him and then ghost fire 2 times and likely win with the ultimate after, however I am not sure that will ever be a likely scenario. Keeping him alive/not losing for 2 turns is tough when your investing your cards into mana generation, and if that is the case you likely do not have enough cards in the yard to be casing treasure cruises or anything like that. He is not good against dredge, storm, or activated oath either since they can win from nothing all at once.

His ultimate may be misleading too, as he may very often just be a ghost fire machine until you win from ghost damage.

The other scenario is you are using him to board wipe and then maintaining board control until you wincon, but in vintage his wipe is not going to affect artifacts which is actually a huge deal for most lists, and considering your most likely just using artifacts to power him out yourself maintaining board control seems like a pipe dream as this deck likely has very few counters and such.

The only place I see him actually having a role is in a devoted Mana drain list, but that's going to be very meta dependent and it's really going to depend if treasure cruise continues to see play or not as it is the most likely thing to get you to 8 mana in a field that is dominated by 1 and 2 drops. And TC not seeing as much play is a very real possibility based on possible restriction or people metagaming yard hate against it. I also question if he is that much better at 8 mana than slamming Karn for 7. Both can ultimate in 2 turns but Karn is better against storm and dredge and all the lists that Ugin is not.

[vaughnbros]

I also question if he is that much better at 8 mana than slamming Karn for 7. Both can ultimate in 2 turns but Karn is better against storm and dredge and all the lists that Ugin is not.

Ugin's utlimate is a lot better than Karn's.  I mean pretty much anything can happen if you reboot a vintage game.  Ugin's + and - are also much better at dealing with a crowded board than Karn's are.  Neither are really relevant against storm or dredge so I'm not sure that really matters.  I think Ugin is the better card.  Where does he fit in vintage though?  

The metalworker build that ramped into Karn never really gained much popularity, but maybe this upgrade resuscitates it.

Some people were discussing Elesh norn as a trump to delver, this seems to be almost equally good at beating delver while its also a powerhouse in a number of other match ups.

[msg67183]

I also question if he is that much better at 8 mana than slamming Karn for 7. Both can ultimate in 2 turns but Karn is better against storm and dredge and all the lists that Ugin is not.

Ugin's utlimate is a lot better than Karn's.  I mean pretty much anything can happen if you reboot a vintage game.  Ugin's + and - are also much better at dealing with a crowded board than Karn's are.  Neither are really relevant against storm or dredge so I'm not sure that really matters.  I think Ugin is the better card.  Where does he fit in vintage though?  

The metalworker build that ramped into Karn never really gained much popularity, but maybe this upgrade resuscitates it.

Some people were discussing Elesh norn as a trump to delver, this seems to be almost equally good at beating delver while its also a powerhouse in a number of other match ups.

Agreed, Ugin's ultimate wins games instead of resetting it.

[Protoaddict]

Some people were discussing Elesh norn as a trump to delver, this seems to be almost equally good at beating delver while its also a powerhouse in a number of other match ups.

Norn can be Reanimated, oathed, cavern of souls'd, or show and telled, which I think places her light years beyond Ugin as a delver answer. Consequently I think that may also be the reason it gets the nod over Night of souls betrayal.

[MaximumCDawg]

Color me skeptical.  On the plus side, this card certainly has a power level consistent with Vintage.  It lands and either functions as spot removal for creatures and planeswalkers, or is All Is Dust in a pinch.  If he is not dealt with he wins the game in a few turns.  That's all great.  This is an upgrade on Karn, for sure.  But was Karn really tearing up tables at Vintage Top 8s?

Modern, sure.  Vintage?  I think we need more justification.

[xouman]

The card is very powerful, but 8 mana is a lot. Yeah, you can play it in lots of matches, but it's a card you don't want to see in your open 7 (and even less after a mulligan). It's bad in MUD, but I can see it in decks with the playset of drains or turbo tezz. However I don't expect it to be a common staple in vintage.

[Protoaddict]

How bout this as a test, for 8 mana is this card better than Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion? Keep in mind both of those are artifacts that power themselves out with metal worker, work better with Lightning greaves or volt key which you will likely be using in that list, and likely work better with sphere effects that you could run with them.

For shops I just think there are better cards available in the 8 mana slot, if you even want to play an 8 mana card, which is why this fitting into shops does not seem likely to me. If there were some other big mana list I would think maybe this could find a home, but that list does not exist.

[Dice_Box]

Titan I can see as being a point to make, but Platinum just dies to everything.

That is a point to make though, this guy does dodge all the normal hate for Shops.

[WhiteLotus]

How bout this as a test, for 8 mana is this card better than Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion?

if we are considering you have mana to cast ugin or the cards you mention, ugin is way better. The thing is it doesn't evade golem or thorn and doesn't get cast by workshop mana or tutored up by forgemaster. those are the real reasons why titan is better.
and if a blue deck was built around getting to 8 mana, there are about a million things better you can do.

[brianpk80]

Would be pretty awesome with unrestricted Channel. 

[conboy31]

Would be pretty awesome with unrestricted Channel. 

Was thinking the same thing.  Probably start with a remix of Channel/oath + Ugin.

[Protoaddict]

So would Emrakul and Kozelik and Ulamog. And then we can play a deck that is 12 titans, 4 not of this world, 4 channel, 4 force of will, X other blue spells and green mana generators. It would also be great with 4 black lotus, 4 lotus petal, and 4 mox emerald.

We could theory craft all day about what would be great with unrestricted channel, but that's not the case. As it stands with the card pool we have, I think we are much more likely to see sundering titan in workshops than this, and I don't think titan is even that good right now, and I don't think this has a home anywhere else. If we ever get a show and tell for planeswalkers (god help us) then this may see the light of day, but right now I doubt it.

[Hrishi]

Would be pretty awesome with unrestricted Channel. 

Was thinking the same thing.  Probably start with a remix of Channel/oath + Ugin.

Actually I might have gone with a mix of Channel and Eureka