Temporal Trespass

[fsecco]

So, they actually did it... I don't know what to think... UUU is high enough for brokeness, but come on guys... Also, exiling it is kinda relevant to stop comboing.



Temporal Trespass - 8UUU
Sorcery

Delve
Take an extra turn after this one. Exile Temporal Trespass.

[Commandant]

I don't need to be doing this at the stage of the game where this is viable. I'd rather be drawing three or finding combo town in my top seven.

[Hrishi]

The UUU part of the cost is so high

[boggyb]

You sure about that?

You can do this on turn 3 or 4 pretty easily. A turn 3 or 4 time walk out of a Delver deck is often lethal.

[MaximumCDawg]

Time Walk at UUU is playable, but iffy.  Quite a bit different from Treasure Cruise matching up at U with Ancestral.  We know there is an upper limit where Time Walk is not playable; at 3UU, Time Warp sees no play.  UUU is arguably more than halfway towards that higher cost.

Moreover, where Cruise and Dig helped fuel the next delve spell by pulling lots of cards out of your deck, this does not give you the same level of advantage. 

[Samoht]

I could easily play this in a Planeswalker deck to great effect. I had been running Savor the Moment but this will likely be a strict upgrade. That said, I don't think Planeswalkers are cheap enough to be reliable against Shops/Storm/Dredge and thus the deck has severe flaws that this won't really correct. I think it's a win more card as of now.

[serracollector]

Just as I said about Treasure Cruise, this too will see mass play.  They did it. Now Delver will have 5 Acalls, and 5 Walks, there is 0 doubt in my mind.

[Commandant]

Just as I said about Treasure Cruise, this too will see mass play.  They did it. Now Delver will have 5 Acalls, and 5 Walks, there is 0 doubt in my mind.

lol

[Samoht]

Just as I said about Treasure Cruise, this too will see mass play.  They did it. Now Delver will have 5 Acalls, and 5 Walks, there is 0 doubt in my mind.

I don't think they can afford that many Delve cards. I tried Delver with 6 and it felt like too much.

[serracollector]

I been playing in standard with 4 Cruise and 4 Dig's, and have had 0 problems, with 10 fetches, and the cantrips in Eternal Formats, you don't think this is just as Viable?  You only need to cast 1-2 of them to simply win.  Also, this now really really makes me want to run Howl of the Hordes.

[jamestosetti]

Just as I said about Treasure Cruise, this too will see mass play.  They did it. Now Delver will have 5 Acalls, and 5 Walks, there is 0 doubt in my mind.

I don't think they can afford that many Delve cards. I tried Delver with 6 and it felt like too much.

They might be able to pull this one off. The more delve cards at their disposal, the more they can just pitch to a Force of Will or a Misdirection. I can see this being huge in Modern and probably Legacy. I am skeptical about delve cards in Vintage in multiples of more than two. I think Dig Through Time is a very good card for the format, but I think Treasure Cruise is better off on the restricted list. We have access to Merchant Scroll, Snapcaster Mage, Noxious Revival, and Regrowth, which enable the card advantage plays that Treasure Cruise looks for. That said, the more delve cards that are played, the better main deck grave hate becomes. Nihil Spellbomb is basically a back breaker to the delve strategy. I think these delve spells are interesting, but I don't consider them very strategic calls outside of Dig Through Time.

[diopter]

Part of the magic of Delver is the virtual advantage of having almost no dead cards in any situation in the first two turns of the game (at least in the Force of Will mirror):
- it thrives on one land hands
- it's the only Gush deck where it's more than ok to turn 2 Gush without Fastbond.

Pre-Treasure Cruise, the only reason you could mtachup a more inconsistent deck like Grixis was because Delver's long game needed work.

Ironically, Treasure Cruise is one of the deadest until the third turn, but the payoff is you get that insane long game AND you go over the top of Grixis because you're the better Cruise deck.

(That's kind of why Delver's so good right now. Insane short game + insane long game. It will stay top dog until somebody can figure out a better way of leveraging 5x Ancestral Recall than beating with tokens.)

---

All this is to say: what does Temporal Trespass give Delver that actually positions it better than now?

A thought experiment: if I'm sitting there on turn 3 with Pyromancer and a couple tokens and contemplating a Delve, do I want to Cruise for 1-2 mana, or Trespass for 3? Keeping in mind that Trespass requires that I actually Preordain for the third mana source instead of a useful spell, which ironically makes it harder to even achieve the 8-spot Delve in the first place. Also keeping in mind that the Trespass isn't actually lethal at this point, and I've just cut myself off from Cruising for essentially the rest of the game (either my tokens get there, or opponent finds an answer and Cruises himself to an overwhelming advantage, or opponent Cruises and THEN finds the answer.

What if it's turn 5 and I've already Cruised, do I really need to Trespass, or is it sufficiently game-winning to Cruise againor even Dig?

Cuz what we're really talking about here is a number of precious maindeck slots and the value that they have at different stages of the game.

If you're really bent on Trespass, start with one for value and to double your Time Walk count.

---

Another note: Champs featured a Delver deck with Burning Wishes to find Treasure Cruise or Time Walk, and I would look to such builds first if I wanted to focus on taking extra turns with Delver.

Yes, I know Burning Wish is tempo-negative which isn't Delver's game plan, but Temporal Trespass is thrice the problem. And there are ways of reducing the tempo cost of Burning Wish, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

[vaughnbros]

I been playing in standard with 4 Cruise and 4 Dig's, and have had 0 problems, with 10 fetches, and the cantrips in Eternal Formats, you don't think this is just as Viable?  You only need to cast 1-2 of them to simply win.  Also, this now really really makes me want to run Howl of the Hordes.

Cruise and dig feed themselves better than this.  A resolved cruise is potentially 4 cards to your GY, a resolved dig is potentially 3 cards to your graveyard, while resolved or not this is potentially only 1 card to your graveyard.  This is in addition to you having to delve more than both dig and cruise, and you having to pay more U than dig and cruise.  This is definitely a significantly lower power level than Cruise and dig, although it's probably still not completely unplayable.  In a deck like Delver where time walk is so powerful this should be good enough to be time walk 2, but I wouldn't hold my breathe.

Howl of the hordes with this would be 2RUUU even with the full delve... There are better spells you could use that on.

[Chubby Rain]

I been playing in standard with 4 Cruise and 4 Dig's, and have had 0 problems, with 10 fetches, and the cantrips in Eternal Formats, you don't think this is just as Viable?  You only need to cast 1-2 of them to simply win.  Also, this now really really makes me want to run Howl of the Hordes.

Different formats though - I imagine the average amount of actual mana that you are paying in standard is different than it is in Vintage.

Time Walk at UUU is playable, but iffy.  Quite a bit different from Treasure Cruise matching up at U with Ancestral.  We know there is an upper limit where Time Walk is not playable; at 3UU, Time Warp sees no play.  UUU is arguably more than halfway towards that higher cost.

Moreover, where Cruise and Dig helped fuel the next delve spell by pulling lots of cards out of your deck, this does not give you the same level of advantage.  

It's really complicated to evaluate these cards based on mana cost as the flexibility of paying different amounts depending on the game state is a definite advantage. Cruise, Dig, and Trespass if it sees play introduce another variable to deck building and game play and that is effectively using the graveyard for mana. As I've played with these cards and built decks around them, I have come to appreciate the intricacies of delve more. I still think both cards are completely broken, but that's a discussion for another thread. Trespass does also feed itself by allowing you to untap. 6 mana and 10 cards in the graveyard allow you to cast two Trespass in succession.

My initial opinion on Trespass is that it is fairly costed but not broken whereas Cruise and Dig are broken and most decks will gravitate towards them. Again though, I think that it will be really tricky to evaluate this card by just looking at it.

Edit: Lance is 100% right. Fixed it in the post.

[vaughnbros]

Trespass does also feed itself by allowing you to untap. 6 mana and 6 cards in the graveyard allows you to cast two Trespass in succession.

This costs 11, so 6 mana (x2) and 6 cards doesn't completely pay for both copies.  Also the currently most threatening deck to run this, delver is never really going to have that many mana sources in play.  I think as Tom said you would really need something more like planeswalker control to abuse this in multiples.

[Demagoguery]

It seems a little too weak to see play outside of decks that specifically want a Time Walk effect over other cards, and even then I'm not sure. Though there's an easy chance that I'm just undervaluing this card.

Just as I said about Treasure Cruise, this too will see mass play.  They did it. Now Delver will have 5 Acalls, and 5 Walks, there is 0 doubt in my mind.

UUU is a lot for Delver to pay?

[serracollector]

Im not saying you would should or even need to run four of these. The fact is one or two is probably more than enough to get full use of it and you say it doesnt fuel itself BUT look at the cards that will be played with it. Think of this line of play. Gush two lands use dack toss two lands cast delve walk removing entire grave. Take extra turn. Play fetch crack it play gush play two cantrips dack again and still be able to cruise that turn. This seems very simple too me personally. Getting an extra turn in a tempo deck is about the most powerful thing you can do.

[JarofFortune]

- it's the only Gush deck where it's more than ok to turn 2 Gush without Fastbond.

That's not a great play for Delver decks if they aren't desperate. They should at least wait until turn three. As for this card, i'm curious to see what decks play it. Maybe a very tempo-oriented version of Delver with 16 creatures could play it over cruise.

[diopter]

Serracollector: in your example scenario, what does the rest of the board look like?

DelveWalk is win-more there if you have a Pyromancer - you've cast a bunch of spells, drawn 4 cards and have a full yard ready to Cruise instead... You might as well just naturally draw your Time Walk.

Meanwhile it is actually somewhat underwhelming if you have nothing - blown your wad to Time Walk, but have nothing worth taking an extra turn for as you have 1 land and no board presence to show for it. An opponent can just Cruise to maintain parity or better.

I think the Delver gameplan is just way different than you're envisioning.

I mean if you want to take extra turns so badly Burning Wish or DTT are better options for finding your Time Walk while still doing useful things in real, uncontrived situations.

[diopter]

- it's the only Gush deck where it's more than ok to turn 2 Gush without Fastbond.

That's not a great play for Delver decks if they aren't desperate. They should at least wait until turn three. As for this card, i'm curious to see what decks play it. Maybe a very tempo-oriented version of Delver with 16 creatures could play it over cruise.

For sure, you wait if you can. But you can fire off Gush with impunity to dig for Force or Pyroblast in response to e.g. opposing Tinker, knowing that you haven't totally wrecked your gameplan - far from it.

This situation is exactly one of the things I always struggled with when playing e.g. East Coast Wins.

[Saya]

Probably its home is a modern eternal blue lock.

[Protoaddict]

This card works much better with colorless mana sources that delver typically does not use like sol ring, off color moxen, etc, so I am not sure this is truly at home in that type of deck.

What I would image is something more traditional like a blue control deck that is running drains, tinker bots, etc, not delver. I also think that a copy or 2 of this have a home in oath where you have plenty of cards in the yard and you really don't need to draw 3 with an active griselbrand on the table so much as get extra lifelink attacks.

[fsecco]

I also think Oath could use this well. The only problem is that this is only good after Oath triggers... You should be winning by then anyway.

[H]

I can't agree that an extra turn is only good after Oath triggers.  Getting Oath to trigger by taking an extra turn is pretty good.  Is this card good though?  That I don't know, but probably not.

[MTGFan]

Seeing as how Ancestral Recall is miles and miles beyond Time Walk in terms of power; I suspect that this card will prove to be even worse in terms of power disparity when compared with its Delve counterpart (Cruise).

Paying U to draw 3 cards is simply so much better than paying UUU to get an extra turn.

[vaughnbros]

After testing this card out it really reminds me of Temporal Mastery compared to the other miracle cards.  Similar to that situation the other delve cards are just better.  The set  up for this is rarely worth the effect.  This is much much closer to time warp than time walk.  The cost of casting it is just too great.

[gkraigher]

Th

After testing this card out it really reminds me of Temporal Mastery compared to the other miracle cards.  Similar to that situation the other delve cards are just better.  The set  up for this is rarely worth the effect.  This is much much closer to time warp than time walk.  The cost of casting it is just too great.

This makes sense to me.  If you want conditional time walks, temporal mastery seems a whole lot better than this card.  This card will always cost at least 3 blue mana and that is not easy.

I don't think this card is good, but i do like the design.  

[Smmenen]

Seeing as how Ancestral Recall is miles and miles beyond Time Walk in terms of power;

Wow, that's untrue.  Taking extra turns is the most powerful/abusive thing you can do in the game, not card draw. 

[ben_berry]

And it increases in power as the game goes longer.

[TheShop]

This seems like it would have a home in Steve's hypothetical Kiora gush deck from the podcast.  Synergy with walkers, extra lands, lots of cantrips.