Monastery Mentor

[Protoaddict]

SO if your using this guy, I think it is safe to assume a few things:

1 - Your not playing red, because otherwise you would just use pyromancer
2 - You are playing blue, because mono white is not the shell for this
3 - It has to be better at doing what its going to do than pyromancer is, because otherwise your playing a weak pyromancer variant

With that being said, what is the list? I would think you play 5 moxen because this guy triggers off them and they help pay his extra mana cost. Probably if you have 5 moxen its not a stretch to think you play tinker, maybe trinket mage, maybe key vault, probably top?

I mean these are all power cards. I think what this guy becomes though is a wincon in a deck that has a variety of ways to win, as opposed to the end all be all deck list.

If i can snag these at a reasonable price I may be compelled to put this together, but I don't see these being cheap any time until at least the set is out for a bit.

[Merfolkasaurus-Rex]

So everyone has been talking about the benefits of this card triggering from artifacts, but remember it also triggers from enchantments, and so does the prowess of the tokens. I think someone mentioned concordant crossroads, which makes me wonder if this could fit into an enchantress type deck. Though you'll have to forgive my ignorance about enchantress in general, I had a 15-year hiatus in MTG and I couldn't even begin to know what goes in to a vintage enchantress deck. Just thinking a bunch of wild growth type shenanigans could be pretty strong with a token-producer like this.

[JarofFortune]

SO if your using this guy, I think it is safe to assume a few things:

1 - Your not playing red, because otherwise you would just use pyromancer
2 - You are playing blue, because mono white is not the shell for this
3 - It has to be better at doing what its going to do than pyromancer is, because otherwise your playing a weak pyromancer variant

With that being said, what is the list? I would think you play 5 moxen because this guy triggers off them and they help pay his extra mana cost. Probably if you have 5 moxen its not a stretch to think you play tinker, maybe trinket mage, maybe key vault, probably top?

I mean these are all power cards. I think what this guy becomes though is a wincon in a deck that has a variety of ways to win, as opposed to the end all be all deck list.

If i can snag these at a reasonable price I may be compelled to put this together, but I don't see these being cheap any time until at least the set is out for a bit.

I can see this alongside pyromancer. I don't think it's about what's better so much as that each of them is a must-kill threat. A bomberman style list could also be viable, however.

[vaughnbros]

SO if your using this guy, I think it is safe to assume a few things:

1 - Your not playing red, because otherwise you would just use pyromancer
3 - It has to be better at doing what its going to do than pyromancer is, because otherwise your playing a weak pyromancer variant

Its not safe to assume either of these...  Weaker than pyromancer?  Its easier to trigger, it has prowess, it has 2 toughness and the tokens it generates have prowess... On the table its completely superior.  Unaffected by almost every hate card that currently exists for YP.  The only advantage that YP has is its 1 less mana, and might fit better in your color scheme.

[ben_berry]

Will it really be triggering off you're moxes? You'll have already played them in order to cast this guy. How many cantrips will you have left in you're hand on turn 4?

[Demagoguery]

Will it really be triggering off you're moxes? You'll have already played them in order to cast this guy. How many cantrips will you have left in you're hand on turn 4?

In Delver, probably not very often since they only play a couple, in other decks sure. I personally like playing artifact heavy lists with 5 Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, and Mana Crypt, all of which trigger this guy but don't trigger Pyromancer.  Don't forget that Top also triggers the Mentor, in addition to providing some extra synergy with Key as not only do you get to draw more cards but it also makes more tokens and pumps existing ones .

That's what I really like about this card, it's an inherent artificer that rewards you for playing the style I enjoy, whereas Pyromancer does not.

[coldcrow]

Repeal could come back with this guy. Could try to build around with spellbombs, sensei, repeal. But this is probably just cute.

[Demagoguery]

I think Repeal would be a little too cute, and this card doesn't need so much a "build around me" scenario as it does to be eased into certain decks. Oddly enough I think something like Turbo Tezz can easily find room for this as they tend to play a ton of artifact mana and other artifacts that would trigger this. I've seen a Tezz deck overwhelm players with keys+mana+tops more often than locking them out with Vault quickly.

There's also the benefit that in lists that run a lot of Moxen they can now run Hukryl's Recall to be strong against shops and not lose quite as much to the Delver match up since sometimes Hyrkul's will just make a bunch of tokens or pump your small group of tokens into Goyf's for a turn.

[Protoaddict]

SO if your using this guy, I think it is safe to assume a few things:

1 - Your not playing red, because otherwise you would just use pyromancer
3 - It has to be better at doing what its going to do than pyromancer is, because otherwise your playing a weak pyromancer variant

Its not safe to assume either of these...  Weaker than pyromancer?  Its easier to trigger, it has prowess, it has 2 toughness and the tokens it generates have prowess... On the table its completely superior.  Unaffected by almost every hate card that currently exists for YP.  The only advantage that YP has is its 1 less mana, and might fit better in your color scheme.

I mean Pyromancer the deck, not Pyromancer the card. I think in the abstract it is weaker than pyromancer simply because of the mana cost. There are plenty of 3 cost creatures you could play in vintage that are really strong, but you don't because the 2 mana ones are just so efficient. There is a reason Goyf was the beater of choice for so long over 3 mana choices of possibly higher power levels.

[vaughnbros]

SO if your using this guy, I think it is safe to assume a few things:

1 - Your not playing red, because otherwise you would just use pyromancer
3 - It has to be better at doing what its going to do than pyromancer is, because otherwise your playing a weak pyromancer variant

Its not safe to assume either of these...  Weaker than pyromancer?  Its easier to trigger, it has prowess, it has 2 toughness and the tokens it generates have prowess... On the table its completely superior.  Unaffected by almost every hate card that currently exists for YP.  The only advantage that YP has is its 1 less mana, and might fit better in your color scheme.

I mean Pyromancer the deck, not Pyromancer the card. I think in the abstract it is weaker than pyromancer simply because of the mana cost. There are plenty of 3 cost creatures you could play in vintage that are really strong, but you don't because the 2 mana ones are just so efficient. There is a reason Goyf was the beater of choice for so long over 3 mana choices of possibly higher power levels.

The way you phrased your entire post made it seem like you were referring to the card.  What is pyromancer the deck?  UR delver?  

There are definitely a bunch of 3 CC creatures that see play in vintage, most notably Trinket Mage, Vendilion Clique, Trygon Predator, and for all intents and purposes snapcaster mage.  Obviously you want a power increase when you go from a 2 mana spell to a 3 mana spell though, which is the case in YP vs. Monastery Mentor.

There are no creatures that are always better in play than goyf for 3 mana so its not really the best example.  There are creatures at 3CC that fill a similar role to goyf that do see play, most notably True Name Nemesis, which I think is actually seeing more play than goyf now due to its better color and better creature type.

Monastery Mentor is always better in play than Young Pyromancer.  So how big is the difference between 2 and 3 mana?  When you put into context that Young Pyromancer isn't really a great turn 1 play anyway, its doesn't really seem too big a difference to me.

EDIT: Also I'm not actually sure that it matters which one is better.  Decks are certainly capable of supporting both.  Wouldn't having access to 8 high powered reverse storm cards be good for some builds?  Especially something like delver?

[Demagoguery]

There are plenty of 3 cost creatures you could play in vintage that are really strong, but you don't because the 2 mana ones are just so efficient. There is a reason Goyf was the beater of choice for so long over 3 mana choices of possibly higher power levels.

So I hear this at times but I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a lot of creatures at 3 mana that are better than their 2 mana counterparts without it being conditional. I feel like most 3 mana creatures are more conditional than their 2 mana counterparts, which is why they see play, whereas this guy is just better stat wise than Pyromancer.

The best I could come up with at 3 mana to compare to Goyf is Master of Etherium or Leatherback Baloth. Master can be a lot stronger but he also gets hit by more hate and requires more of a bored presence to be stronger, Goyf just fits into decks a lot easier. As for Leatherback Baloth, it's not even larger than Goyf, requires a much heavier mana commitment, and is more mana.

What's the comparison for Dark Confidant, Snap caster, and so forth? I don't really think there is one, I guess there's Dark Tutelage for Confidant but that card is by no means stronger for more mana, it's just different and in a lot of cases weaker.

[serracollector]

The plethora of three drops that swing and draw you a card are the comparison to bob. And eternal witness def fits the bill as a three mana snap. This card tho only requires one mana of its type and it has the MASS pluses over YP in that it gets the prowess triggers makes tokens off any non creature spell and its tokens get prowess. As stated multiple times before this card allows you to run three to four hurks without hurting you and obv this helps the MUD matchup. I can totally see something like turn one or two Mentor turn two or three Trinket Mage get a token or two. Turn three play with my top(s) or hurks and win the game with Counterspell backup. Not to mention its a human so Caverns is def a good thing with it and friends. You dont even need the bomberman combo. This guy alongside a Magus of the Future or a Trinket Mage into Top is easily enough to win with. 

[Demagoguery]

While I'll concede that Eternal Witness is in theory a better Snap, although it has the issue that it's double green and harder to splash, along with not having flash, I don't agree that any of the Ophidians are better than Bob. Having to attack and connect is much harder than having to simply survive a turn.

This guy on the other hand is strictly better in every way than Pyromancer, except he's white and costs 1 colourless more. I'd say that's a much closer comparison than any other comparison between a 2 and 3 drop when comparing the different powerful creatures we have currently.

Edit: Also, I think this is a pretty interesting discussion that should be had at some point, to get a better grasp of when a card is truly better or not without considering the mana cost necessarily. Especially since the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to say Witness is not comparable to Snap, simply because of how powerful flash can be at times, even when you're not gaining anything from the flashback part.

[Guli]

While I'll concede that Eternal Witness is in theory a better Snap, although it has the issue that it's double green and harder to splash, along with not having flash, I don't agree that any of the Ophidians are better than Bob. Having to attack and connect is much harder than having to simply survive a turn.

This guy on the other hand is strictly better in every way than Pyromancer, except he's white and costs 1 colourless more. I'd say that's a much closer comparison than any other comparison between a 2 and 3 drop when comparing the different powerful creatures we have currently.

Edit: Also, I think this is a pretty interesting discussion that should be had at some point, to get a better grasp of when a card is truly better or not without considering the mana cost necessarily. Especially since the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to say Witness is not comparable to Snap, simply because of how powerful flash can be at times, even when you're not gaining anything from the flashback part.

Eternal Witness gets back Strip Mine, Explosives, Thalia and Friends, Oath of Ghouls. And the flashback/exile is now more relevant because of that new Human that can combo off with Time Walk. Eternal Witness is more suited for decks that don't want too many instant, sorcery.

Now on topic, Monastery Mentor seems to be a good grow card, the way Pyromancer works. But I want to point out that I have been experimenting with Darkblast and Sensei Top and the Heroic mechanic in 5c Humans. There are other ways than playing massive amount of instants and sorceries, in order to enable a couple of triggers for Monastery Mentor.

[Protoaddict]

Monastery Mentor is always better in play than Young Pyromancer. IN PLAY

I fixed that quote for you. Yes the card is superior on the board with some corner case weaknesses (white tokens dies to dread of night which is a very efficient counter to this guy since they dies as a state based action.)

But you still have to play him. That cannot be overlooked in a format that has a heavy shops presence, null rods, etc. And he dodges spell snare better, but is worse if countered by mana drain, so on and so forth.

There are actually quite a few examples of cards in the format that quite literally are strictly better than others, except for that nasty mana cost. Ulamog is all but strictly better than Savanah lions, except for costing more.

Creatures that need extra support for 3 mana to be good have always been pretty fringe, with only the very best making the top ranks and seeing play in vintage, and usually because there is no cheaper, similar version. VClique, True Name Nemesis, Trinket Mage, these guys have no other replacement at a cheaper mana cost. Glowrider saw fringe play until Thalia was printed. Hell, pyromancer being red may be more of an advantage than not anyway, since pyrokenesis is a real card and possibly ok in the mirror.

[vaughnbros]

Monastery Mentor is always better in play than Young Pyromancer. IN PLAY

I fixed that quote for you. Yes the card is superior on the board with some corner case weaknesses (white tokens dies to dread of night which is a very efficient counter to this guy since they dies as a state based action.)

Fixed what?  I wrote in play.  Did you read the rest of my post?

But you still have to play him. That cannot be overlooked in a format that has a heavy shops presence, null rods, etc. And he dodges spell snare better, but is worse if countered by mana drain, so on and so forth.

Drain still answers YP, and still needs you to cast spells after you resolve him.  Your also still overlooking that pyromancer is answered by pyroclasm, slice and dice, fire//ice, electrickery, ect. ect., where Monastery Mentor easily dodges all of them with prowess and an extra toughness.  

There are actually quite a few examples of cards in the format that quite literally are strictly better than others, except for that nasty mana cost. Ulamog is all but strictly better than Savanah lions, except for costing more.

Thank you for this insightful comment about two completely unplayable cards, which are 10 mana apart not 1.

Creatures that need extra support for 3 mana to be good have always been pretty fringe, with only the very best making the top ranks and seeing play in vintage, and usually because there is no cheaper, similar version. VClique, True Name Nemesis, Trinket Mage, these guys have no other replacement at a cheaper mana cost. Glowrider saw fringe play until Thalia was printed. Hell, pyromancer being red may be more of an advantage than not anyway, since pyrokenesis is a real card and possibly ok in the mirror.

There are certainly flying creatures with flash and creatures that thoughtseize your opponent at 2 mana that could be compared to VClique, tidehollow sculler and spellstutter sprite come to mind.  There are also certainly creatures that create combat supremacy, like tarmogoyf, that compare well with TNN.  Trinket mage is unique for a creature, but has a similar effect to sorceries like fabricate, and transmute artifact.  At 3 mana he is actually undercosted.

Thalia>Glowrider in play.  This is yet another bad example.  

Pyrokensis playable?  I will believe it when I see it.  No popular deck runs the red count to play that card.

[Protoaddict]

I cannot help but feel like you are utterly discounting how important the differences in this card are when compared to Pyromancer. Both cards do the same thing, in that they give you incremental advantage while you seek to play a control game (in current incarnations of the lists at least.)

If you were to just strip red out of the current delver shells and replace it with white, using this as a stand in for pyromancer, I am unconvinced that deck would be even slightly better than pyromancer builds are now, most importantly because of mana cost.

If playing 3 mana spells where you have the option to play 2 mana ones were viable, there are a multitude of 3 mana counterspells that one would think could see play that do not. Dissipate is strictly better than counterspell for 1 more mana. It sees no play in vintage, or even legacy where counterspell does see play.

Most of the answers to pyromancer you listed are being played simply because of pyromancer existing and being a force in the game. If this card were so much better than pyro as to replace it in the meta, don't you think the answers would catch up as well? There are just as many answers to this guy as pyromancer, just different ones like the aforementioned dread of night.

[Demagoguery]

Eternal Witness gets back Strip Mine, Explosives, Thalia and Friends, Oath of Ghouls. And the flashback/exile is now more relevant because of that new Human that can combo off with Time Walk. Eternal Witness is more suited for decks that don't want too many instant, sorcery.

Well yes, Witness has its place, but what I'm saying is the fact that Snapcaster has flash does not make Witness a stronger but more expensive (and colour shifted) card. Being able to surprise block, fight planeswalkers better, and set up more responsive decision trees (imagine having 3 mana with Snap or 4 mana with Witness and your graveyard being Swords, Misstep, and Drain, there are a lot of situations in which Snapcaster ends up being better as it gives you more options for a period of time.).

In other words, what I'm saying is the comparison between this card and Pyromancer is significantly more comparable than any other two creatures when going from 2 to 3 mana. Mentor is literally better in every way than Pyromancer (better body, easier activation, more abilities, and better tokens produced) other than costing 1 more mana and being White. The same is not true for something like Witness and Snapcaster, where one offers more options in terms of what you can return, and the other can be played at instant speed, had Witness been 2G and had Flash, we'd have a more similar comparison to how Mentor and Pyromancer compare.

[vaughnbros]

I cannot help but feel like you are utterly discounting how important the differences in this card are when compared to Pyromancer. Both cards do the same thing, in that they give you incremental advantage while you seek to play a control game (in current incarnations of the lists at least.)

Most of the answers to pyromancer you listed are being played simply because of pyromancer existing and being a force in the game. If this card were so much better than pyro as to replace it in the meta, don't you think the answers would catch up as well? There are just as many answers to this guy as pyromancer, just different ones like the aforementioned dread of night.

A more difficult spell to answer has a lot of benefits over one more easily answered.  Dread of night is only applicable in this one corner case, whereas fire//ice, slice and dice, ect. all do something against other decks.  Think the difference between Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis.  TNN is answered by far less cards and thus sees play even though its 1 less mana, and actually worse than tarmogoyf (while this is not the case for monastery mentor who is actually better than YP and answered by less).  

If you were to just strip red out of the current delver shells and replace it with white, using this as a stand in for pyromancer, I am unconvinced that deck would be even slightly better than pyromancer builds are now, most importantly because of mana cost.

I'm not sure why you are so set on this one or the other argument.  Delver is already 3 colors.  I'm not sure why I have to strip out red to play this card, and why I have to strip out pyromancer at all either?....?  The deck can easily support going UWR instead of URg as well as support both Monastery Mentor and YP.

If playing 3 mana spells where you have the option to play 2 mana ones were viable, there are a multitude of 3 mana counterspells that one would think could see play that do not. Dissipate is strictly better than counterspell for 1 more mana. It sees no play in vintage, or even legacy where counterspell does see play.

Counterspell sees no play in vintage, and there are no 3 mana counter superior to mana drain.  Legacy isn't really pertinent to this argument as their card base is tremendously different, but if we must discuss counterspell vs dissipate.  Dissipate is only better than counterspell in niche situations.  For the most part they are the same card.  The difference between YP and Monastery Mentor is not just some niche situations.  The difference would be obvious in almost every situation.  Monastery Mentor is almost always going to have a significantly faster clock than Young Pyromancer.  And when answered by a swords or bolt monastery mentor's tokens are always going to be significantly more impactful than YP's tokens.

[serracollector]

I wanna see noble fish run Mentor with Edric. Fuel for the fire. Also just wanna notate that Finkel Selkie and Edric are all three drops very comparable if not better than Bob in situations that have all seen and or still see play and have the advantage or disadvantage of being blue. And forget Dread of Night for one mana you just run Illmess in the Ranks and stop YP and Mentor. obviously. geez.

[fsecco]

I still think Delver is better suited with Pyromancer. At least current builds. 3 drops in Delver are very few and normally are strong hate cards (Dack and Trygon), not win conditions you need to resolve every game. And the last thing you need is clunking your deck with 8 Pyromancers.

That said, I think decks like LSVs Vintage Super League or similar decks can benefit greatly from this. I mean, that was a control combo deck, grixis-like, but that had 4 Pyros as wincons. Mentor would be much better there. You can say that about Bomberman an any UW shell. Young Pyromancer as a tempo card is awesome, but Mentor is more than just a tempo card. It really dominates the board over a few turns.

Imagine this guy playing together with Jace, Top, Magus of the Future, Y. Will... I mean, the difference between this and Pyromancer really come out when you think about Yawg Will. Imagine you have Mentor and a couple of tokens online. You need only 5 spells to be letal (19 damage) right now, without even needing Time Walk. It's a very different scenario if you have Pyromancer instead.

We can now build control-storm decks without having dead cards like Tendrils.

[msg67183]

I still think Delver is better suited with Pyromancer. At least current builds. 3 drops in Delver are very few and normally are strong hate cards (Dack and Trygon), not win conditions you need to resolve every game. And the last thing you need is clunking your deck with 8 Pyromancers.

That said, I think decks like LSVs Vintage Super League or similar decks can benefit greatly from this. I mean, that was a control combo deck, grixis-like, but that had 4 Pyros as wincons. Mentor would be much better there. You can say that about Bomberman an any UW shell. Young Pyromancer as a tempo card is awesome, but Mentor is more than just a tempo card. It really dominates the board over a few turns.

Imagine this guy playing together with Jace, Top, Magus of the Future, Y. Will... I mean, the difference between this and Pyromancer really come out when you think about Yawg Will. Imagine you have Mentor and a couple of tokens online. You need only 5 spells to be letal (19 damage) right now, without even needing Time Walk. It's a very different scenario if you have Pyromancer instead.

We can now build control-storm decks without having dead cards like Tendrils.

Unless I'm doing my math wrong I don't think 5 Spell is 19 damage2/2 

3/3 1/1 

4/4 2/2 1/1 

5/5 3/3 2/2 1/1 

6/6 4/4 3/3 2/2 1/1 

7/7 5/5 4/4 3/3 2/2 1/1

[ben_berry]

That's only 7 damage. No haste.

[fsecco]

By "online" I mean untapped, able to attack. So yes it's 19 damage (I even said that in my original post), which is lethal almost every single Vintage game on turn 2-3 (which you need to get in order to untap with tokens in play).

Come on guys, don't break my balls hehe

[ben_berry]

2/2 1/1 1/1

+5/5

What 5 spells? What turn are you doing this? How do you not loose before then? I just see this being much to slow. Top decking this guy with an empty hand sounds terrible.

[fsecco]

Have you ever played combo control? Have you watched LSVs matches in Vintage Super League's Top 4? This forum is funny. People create scenarios out of their heads only to discredit cards... How often do we need to say every card is good and bad, depending on the scenario?

Anyway, this can easily become a fast clock in a control deck. The only liability this has on Tendrils of Agony is that it doesn't kill the turn it comes into play. Other than that, it's a much easier fit in a control template.

Also, much like Young Pyro, topdecking this during a topdeck war can easily win you the game.

[msg67183]

By "online" I mean untapped, able to attack. So yes it's 19 damage (I even said that in my original post), which is lethal almost every single Vintage game on turn 2-3 (which you need to get in order to untap with tokens in play).

Come on guys, don't break my balls hehe

How many dudes do you already have in play to make 19 damage out of 5 spells? I'm not understanding your logic.

[vaughnbros]

By "online" I mean untapped, able to attack. So yes it's 19 damage (I even said that in my original post), which is lethal almost every single Vintage game on turn 2-3 (which you need to get in order to untap with tokens in play).

Come on guys, don't break my balls hehe

How many dudes do you already have in play to make 19 damage out of 5 spells? I'm not understanding your logic.

The monk himself and 2 tokens.  Math is in an above post.

[Thecheese]

Top decking this guy with an empty hand sounds terrible.

Besides lands and the other monks in your deck. Every card you draw thereafter makes a prowess dude. That Mox, yup makes a dude. Jace...yup makes a dude.

So it seems like a better top deck with an empty hand than young pyromancer

[fsecco]

Top decking this guy with an empty hand sounds terrible.

Besides lands and the other monks in your deck. Every card you draw thereafter makes a prowess dude. That Mox, yup makes a dude. Jace...yup makes a dude.

So it seems like a better top deck with an empty hand than young pyromancer

Exactly. Also, this guy and 3 tokens deal 17 damage with only 3 spells. This is insane.

And even if your opp manages to take out Mentor, the tokens are good on their own. That's what makes him awesome. Something like playing a spell in response to removal, only to trigger 1 token (a common play in Pyro Delver decks) is now a serious threat with Mentor.

Seriously, this guy is nuts.