Monastery Mentor

[healo]

I concede that I am a rude and ignorant Vintage player that has only been at this for over 10 years. I will continue to ferry my wrong assessments to the Vintage community. Ok, please, by all means, continue to play Pyromancer Delver.

I'm sorry, but it really feels like you are either a bit rude/arrogant or you jump to conclusions way too fast. You could also write something reasonable to defend your post, instead, you opt for few sentences full of sarcasm, which only makes you look childish. I don't want to derail this thread anymore, so I will just leave it at that. Feel free to contribute to the discussion please.

[MaximumCDawg]

I concede that I am a rude and ignorant Vintage player that has only been at this for over 10 years. I will continue to ferry my wrong assessments to the Vintage community. Ok, please, by all means, continue to play Pyromancer Delver.

Whoa, where's that coming from, Stormy?  Are you reacting to people who are pointing out that 3 > 2?  I mean, your arguments about how a Mentor shell makes up the difference in other ways are fine, but it's also true that 3 is more than 2 and thus Spheres work better against Mentor.  It's harder for Mentor to a turn 1 play, for example, and once there's a single Sphere effect out, you might not be able to sneak him in there, stable mana base or no.

But the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.  So just go do some testing on MODO and stream it so you can prove that the shell's advantages outweigh its disadvantages.

[Chubby Rain]

Storm: from your comments, it sounds like you haven't played Delver. If you have, you would not be so quick to scoff at the virtual CA of the light manabase in e.g. the Grixis matchup. It's at least worth considering as a practical reason for running YP over Mentor.

Also, you're kinda rude. You need to be really sure you're right before you can get away with that. In this case, you are off the mark.
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Mueller: Young Pyromancer holds the most important advantage against Shops - it might actually come into play.

Have you tested Mentor extensively in the Shops matchup? In my experience, they have been about even though deck construction plays a huge part. The advantages Mueller mentions are valid though Pyromancer's lower mana cost makes it much better against Shops in Delver. If you simply plug Mentor into a Delver deck, you are going to be disappointed with that matchup.

On the other hand, I do agree with you somewhat regarding the virtual CA Delver generates though that is again matchup dependent... I believe Storm thought you were referring to the Shops matchup in which the low land count is more of a liability.

[Stormanimagus]

I concede that I am a rude and ignorant Vintage player that has only been at this for over 10 years. I will continue to ferry my wrong assessments to the Vintage community. Ok, please, by all means, continue to play Pyromancer Delver.

Whoa, where's that coming from, Stormy?  Are you reacting to people who are pointing out that 3 > 2?  I mean, your arguments about how a Mentor shell makes up the difference in other ways are fine, but it's also true that 3 is more than 2 and thus Spheres work better against Mentor.  It's harder for Mentor to a turn 1 play, for example, and once there's a single Sphere effect out, you might not be able to sneak him in there, stable mana base or no.

But the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.  So just go do some testing on MODO and stream it so you can prove that the shell's advantages outweigh its disadvantages.

I play IRL events or on cockatrice. I will never touch MODO again until they fix that pile of crap. It is so hard to get the phases to work properly (and not skip things you don't want it to skip while cycling through phases you don't want have to click through in order to save the abysmal 25 minutes you are given) and if you go to time you just lose no matter what the game score. I can't handle throwing money away to a program that doesn't test your skill but your ability to get arthritis early in life by getting click happy.

Guys, I'm sorry if I come across as snarky but I already outlined my thoughts in a previous post.

Storm quote "Pyromancer DECKS run, on average: 15 land (sometimes 14 pre-board), 3 moxen (sometimes 2), 1 Lotus
Mentor DECKS run, on average: 15 land (sometimes 16 after board), 5 moxen, 1 mana crypt, 1 sol ring, 1 Lotus (sometimes mana vault). They also are often running a much more stable 2 color mana base."

Getting turn 1 Pyromancer in the Delver Shell is probably about as common as getting turn 1 Mentor. Getting turn 2 pyromancer is probably about as common as getting turn 2 Mentor. The extra land as well as 4 mana accel really does matter that much towards this. Also, it's much easier, once either is on the field, to create tokens with Mentor under many spheres. Even UNDER TANGLE. you just drop a land then play a mox under sphere + Golem. While I do have to concede that Ingot Chewer is a nice tool for Delver, UW lists still have plow (pretty much better than bolt vs. shops as it hits forgemaster and larger dudes) as well as EE and a much more powerful and relevant offense/defense use of hurks. Also, no one is holding a gun to your head and saying you can't run red in a Mentor list that DOESN'T run Pyromancer in order to gain the use of Chewer + Dack + Bolt etc. I still think UW while prove to be better and more stable.

Going wide with Pyromancer is much harder than going wide with Mentor because EVERY SPHERE AFFECTS YOUR SPELLS. Golem doesn't do shit to you casting Moxen. I realize Chalice is harder to beat, but that's also the reason you run Ancient Tomb in your sb to be able to run out EE on 0 under a sphere through chalice to blow up chalice. Ancient Tomb also fits a lot more smoothly in a UW Mentor shell where it doesn't make sense in a color hungry URg deck.

I have many more subtle reasons for why Mentor is better than Pyromancer against shops and well, every other matchup, but I have to go work with an orchestra that deserves my time a whole lot more than this debate

[WhiteLotus]

I think it's time to stop misleading people, the delver deck actually has almost no virtual ca on a mentor deck. 18 mana sources + 8+ threats vs 22-23 mana sources + 4 threats. Then, the mentor deck plays better cards which is also a form of virtual ca.
Young pyromancer can only be better vs shops in a deck with the same amount of mana souces or if prowess is totally irrelevant. Neither is true.

[MaximumCDawg]

Young pyromancer can only be better vs shops in a deck with the same amount of mana souces or if prowess is totally irrelevant. Neither is true.

Its not hard to construct a counterexample.  This hand is ok versus shops:

Pyro, Mox, Land, Land, Probe, Force, Ponder.

This hand, not so much:

Mentor, Mox, Land, Land, Probe, Force, Ponder.

[Guli]

We all know the difference between the two cards. Why is it so important though? Why the need to compare? Obviously both decks and cards will be played. Or is the goal to prove which card is the better choice?

My answer would be this:

UR Delver does not need Tinker.

UWB Mentor does not need Lingering Souls.

[MaximumCDawg]

We all know the difference between the two cards. Why is it so important though? Why the need to compare? Obviously both decks and cards will be played. Or is the goal to prove which card is the better choice?

I guess?  There are lots of people who are staking a claim to one being obviously superior all day long.  Like this: "Young pyromancer can only be better vs shops in a deck with the same amount of mana souces or if prowess is totally irrelevant. Neither is true." 

They both have ups and downs.

[Onslaught]

I think it simply comes down to White vs Red, and for many archetypes the Red splash is essential. Mentor is objectively better than Pyromancer in nearly every way, but it means you're playing White. I'm not touching a Gush deck without Ingot Chewers, so there's one example where Pyro feels like the correct inclusion.

[JarofFortune]

The thing about mentor being three mana is that mentor decks will have the full assortment of artifact mana, thus giving them a better man abase against shops. Also, if three mana cards are so unplayable against shop decks as some people make them out to be, why do Trygon and Dack see play?

[MaximumCDawg]

The thing about mentor being three mana is that mentor decks will have the full assortment of artifact mana, thus giving them a better man abase against shops. Also, if three mana cards are so unplayable against shop decks as some people make them out to be, why do Trygon and Dack see play?

I don't think anyone is saying it's unplayable.  You're leaping to the extremes.  People are just pushing back on the suggestion that Pyro is now unplayable.  They're both options with advantages and disadvantages.

[diopter]

Storm: from your comments, it sounds like you haven't played Delver. If you have, you would not be so quick to scoff at the virtual CA of the light manabase in e.g. the Grixis matchup. It's at least worth considering as a practical reason for running YP over Mentor.

Also, you're kinda rude. You need to be really sure you're right before you can get away with that. In this case, you are off the mark.
---
Mueller: Young Pyromancer holds the most important advantage against Shops - it might actually come into play.

Have you tested Mentor extensively in the Shops matchup? In my experience, they have been about even though deck construction plays a huge part. The advantages Mueller mentions are valid though Pyromancer's lower mana cost makes it much better against Shops in Delver. If you simply plug Mentor into a Delver deck, you are going to be disappointed with that matchup.

On the other hand, I do agree with you somewhat regarding the virtual CA Delver generates though that is again matchup dependent... I believe Storm thought you were referring to the Shops matchup in which the low land count is more of a liability.

I've tested Mentor v Shops and to make it work I have to run about 16 land and 6-7 mana rocks. Once you get to that point, it is fine. I'm experimenting with both UW and UWR builds with 3 or 4 Mentors.

That's about an extra mana per every two hands in the various blue matchups though. That doesn't sound like much but hundreds of matches have taught me how bad it is. You still totally devastate Delver because you totally trump their kill and they cannot easily counter your Monk, so all those extra cards mean squat. But Delver is way better at totally destroying Gifts.

The Mentor decks are kind of middle of the road in matchups IMO, midrange-y even. When running that much mana, I'm totally tempted to combo out with Gifts instead and add % via fast wins to compensate for the inconsistency, but the Gifts v Shops matchup is hard. Playing Delver with YP is a huge gamble (Mentor matchup unwinnable) but it shreds Gifts and has game against Shops. I'm also constantly wary of Landstill and YP comes down faster and gives you access to critical on-color Blasts. So, definitely pros and cons.

My thinking is that if I choose not to play Mentor (mostly cuz I don't want to give up red and don't want to branch to three colors) then hybridizing YP with U/R combo elements is a nice way to use the pesky 2/1.

[youhavenogame]

Playing Delver with YP is a huge gamble (Mentor matchup unwinnable)

You base that thesis on what exactly?

Let's face it, Mentor decks are not exactly doing well right now on Magic Online, even though they have improved by last week. Interestingly, the only build that was able to 4-0 twice (even back to back I think) looks pretty much like Delver: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/266103#online

[diopter]

Playing Delver with YP is a huge gamble (Mentor matchup unwinnable)

You base that thesis on what exactly?

Let's face it, Mentor decks are not exactly doing well right now on Magic Online, even though they have improved by last week. Interestingly, the only build that was able to 4-0 twice (even back to back I think) looks pretty much like Delver: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/266103#online

The YP-only Delver vs controllish Mentor matchup is one of interest to me so I've Ben testing it. That's my basis. My conclusion was that Delver only has a few ways to fight Mentor (FoW, main phase Lightning Bolt) and Mentor can often deflect those even if it's behind on cards. Main phase Bolt in particular is only of limited effectiveness.

If Delver incorporates Mentor then that's obviously a whole different ballgame. Though that's Peter-Paul robbery payment IMO due to the Shops matchup (Mentor is fine against Shops but Dack or Trygon are devastating and add significant %).

The list above is interesting though I do wonder about its Shops matchup. 17-land Delver really leans on its Delvers and YPs in that situation.

[diophan]

The list above is interesting though I do wonder about its Shops matchup. 17-land Delver really leans on its Delvers and YPs in that situation.

In those two dailies I only played against one shops deck. It is the matchup I worry about the most, and haven't played enough games against it to give a good conclusion.

[WhiteLotus]

Mentor is actually very midrangey and more of a control deck than a tempo deck like delver. It's a UWx control deck at heart only now it has a fast way to end the game as opposed to stoneforge/ Blue angels. So it makes sense that the two decks have different matchups, different strengths and weaknesses. the Mentor decks are not going to drive Delver completely out of the meta imo.

[sirgog]

Cards that can cast themselves from the graveyard may be worth considering with Mentor.

Has anyone tried Cabal Therapy, Raven's Crime and Monastery Mentor in one deck? I don't have the answers for what else you want in there; probably Life from the Loam and a bunch of hatebears (not sure about Thalia in this context).

Alternately, it could be a Fish variant that uses a lot of colours fuelled by DRS.

[StanleyAugust]

Cards that can cast themselves from the graveyard may be worth considering with Mentor.

Has anyone tried Cabal Therapy, Raven's Crime and Monastery Mentor in one deck? I don't have the answers for what else you want in there; probably Life from the Loam and a bunch of hatebears (not sure about Thalia in this context).

Alternately, it could be a Fish variant that uses a lot of colours fuelled by DRS.

That was many people's first thought when YP was spoiled. It soon turned out that it's not the way to go. Also, Raven's Crime sucks.

[fsecco]

I've seen people using Cabal Therapy to great effect. With Pyromancer it's not that good because it only creates tokens. But with Mentor is triggers prowess and man... If you Cabal Therapy twice in the same turn, with Mentor and a few tokens untapped...

[Chubby Rain]

Cards that can cast themselves from the graveyard may be worth considering with Mentor.

Has anyone tried Cabal Therapy, Raven's Crime and Monastery Mentor in one deck? I don't have the answers for what else you want in there; probably Life from the Loam and a bunch of hatebears (not sure about Thalia in this context).

Alternately, it could be a Fish variant that uses a lot of colours fuelled by DRS.

That was many people's first thought when YP was spoiled. It soon turned out that it's not the way to go. Also, Raven's Crime sucks.

I think you are getting too cute with this. Mentor + Cabal Therapy is awesome and good cards individually but the other cards are pretty weak.

Mentor is a much better with Cabal Therapy than Young Pyromancer was (much better effect, quicker clock, etc.) and Cabal Therapy is better now in this metagame as people are running more streamlined lists.