[FRF] Renowned Weaponsmith

[MTGFan]

Blue shops, perhaps? He's a mana elf for a Workshop deck. I don't know if that's enough to justify a blue splash for any Workshop deck, but it is intriguing.

What will really determine if he's playable or not is probably how good "Vial of Dragonfire" ends up being. The card has yet to be spoiled at this time.

[KrauserKrauser]

Don't we already have Vedalken Engineer?

I don't think 2 extra toughness and the ability to tutor up some very likely useless equipment is going to make a difference.

I do find it interesting that they have a tutor effect for a specific card on an Uncommon.  It really feels that they are moving away from the core tenants of NOW, some of these commons have lines and lines of text on them, not exactly the streamlined simplicity that they have produced before.

[Protoaddict]

My gut is telling me this guy is strictly limited fodder and maybe an oddball standard card, though not likely. He is basically a slow, uncommon, crappy stoneforge mystic that just so happens to make your 14th and 15th picks possibly playable with a body that can block early morphs. Even if vial of Dragonfire is good, if it is an equipment worth playing you already have stoneforge.

[Meddling Mike]

I'm trying to think how good of a card Vial of Dragonfire would have to be to make this thing playable.

Vial of Dragonfire 

When Vial of Dragonfire comes into play, you win the game.

Even then, I think I'd prefer it in a shell with Tutors, card draw and Trinket Mage. I should probably reserve judgment until the other card is spoiled, but I won't. This card is unplayable.

[MaximumCDawg]

There's another aspect of this card that is unique.  It's a repeatable shuffle effect for U.  Have we ever had that before?

[dangerlinto]

There's another aspect of this card that is unique.  It's a repeatable shuffle effect for U.  Have we ever had that before?

I was going to mention that usually tutoring for specific cards as such involves sacrificing the card.

I mean, if I wanted to live in dreamworld, Vial of Dragonfire would be another Engineered Explosives variant at which point this card would be patently awesome.

[vaughnbros]

1 or both the cards he fetches would need to be relevant for him to see play.  Lets wait and see what they are before we come to a verdict.

I'm trying to think how good of a card Vial of Dragonfire would have to be to make this thing playable.

Vial of Dragonfire 

When Vial of Dragonfire comes into play, you win the game.

....Really?  What is this completely unrealistic card adding to the discussion?

[Meddling Mike]

....Really?  What is this completely unrealistic card adding to the discussion?

It illustrates that point that even if this mystery card was completely amazing, there would probably be better ways to go about it than this guy. That's what it adds.

1 or both the cards he fetches would need to be relevant for him to see play.  Lets wait and see what they are before we come to a verdict.

We already know what the other card is and it is not relevant.

[Protoaddict]

It illustrates that point that even if this mystery card was completely amazing, there would probably be better ways to go about it than this guy. That's what it adds.

Not only would the card need to be completely amazing, it would need to hit other requirements as well
- Not an equipment, as otherwise stoneforge
- Likely not something that costs 1 or less because then Trinketmage may be better
- Not something you would be better off getting with enlightened tutor or steelshapers gift
- Would have to fit into a deck that likely needed both this guys abilities to be relevant.

[vaughnbros]

1 or both the cards he fetches would need to be relevant for him to see play.  Lets wait and see what they are before we come to a verdict.

I'm trying to think how good of a card Vial of Dragonfire would have to be to make this thing playable.

Vial of Dragonfire 

When Vial of Dragonfire comes into play, you win the game.

....Really?  What is this completely unrealistic card adding to the discussion?

It illustrates that point that even if this mystery card was completely amazing, there would probably be better ways to go about it than this guy. That's what it adds.

Ummm no, the card you created adds absolutely nothing.  It's so far from the realm of printable and just comes off as blatant trolling, which I would've hoped a moderator wouldn't be doing... Of course it would be bad with this card.  Your hypothetical card is useless in multiples (reducing the effectiveness of being able to fetch 4 copies) as well as requires 0 mana (relegating his first ability useless as well).

[Killane]

What on Earth in happening to this forum?

This is the second discussion I've read today that has done off on a bizzare tangeant. This forum used to be almost Academic in terms of post quality.

Medding mike is using a literary device called Hyperbole folks. He's saying - "huh, let's create the most absurdly broken artifact possible, and use that as a device to say - hey, this card sucks. Even if I could find THIS with it, it woudl still suck".

How is that trolling?

In other news, this card sucks.

[Saya]

conclusion:unplayable

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm completely with Meddling Mike, too.  His point is very well taken:  even the most broken, busted, hilariously best-case scenario does not make this a playable card.

[psly4mne]

If Vial of Dragonfire is a zero mana autowin, you still wouldn't play 4x Weaponsmith? You absolutely would. That said, it does seem unlikely that Vial will be good enough to justify this card in anything but limited.

[vaughnbros]

What on Earth in happening to this forum?

This is the second discussion I've read today that has done off on a bizzare tangeant. This forum used to be almost Academic in terms of post quality.

Medding mike is using a literary device called Hyperbole folks. He's saying - "huh, let's create the most absurdly broken artifact possible, and use that as a device to say - hey, this card sucks. Even if I could find THIS with it, it woudl still suck".

How is that trolling?

If it's hyperbole it's a very poor use of it.  There are times and places where exaggeration may work if employed correctly this is not one of them.  His exaggerated card would pretty much invalidate almost every card in the format not just this one.  This is essentially how is arguement reads in the context of evaluating other cards:
Is Delver of Secrets playable?  No because if they print a 0 mana artifact that wins the game attacking for 3 means nothing.
Is Lodestone Golem playable?   No because if they printed a 0 mana artifact that wins the game it doesn't tax it and 5 damage means nothing.
Is Oath of Druids playable?  No because if they printed a 0 mana artifact that wins the game you never get the chance for it to trigger.
The argument is so flawed and poorly thought out that I don't know how it could be considered anything, but trolling.  Certainly not academic...

Not only would the card need to be completely amazing, it would need to hit other requirements as well
- Not an equipment, as otherwise stoneforge
- Likely not something that costs 1 or less because then Trinketmage may be better
- Not something you would be better off getting with enlightened tutor or steelshapers gift
- Would have to fit into a deck that likely needed both this guys abilities to be relevant.

This makes sense to some degree.  Although depending on the card's exact wording this card could be better than other tutors stoneforge, trinket mage, ect.  Since he can fetch multiples and taps for mana.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think you're being overly-literal and missing the point.  Look, what if they printed this instead:

Vial of Dragonfire
0
Artifact
T: You win the game.  Activate this ability only if you control a creature named Renowed Weaponsmith.

Would you play with this card then?  I'm not even sure you would!  Note that while this is arguably better than Stoneforge (albiet you dont get to cheat the card into play) it's not obvious that this is better than Hermit Druid, who ALSO wins when he taps and sees no play.

[vaughnbros]

I think you're being overly-literal and missing the point.  Look, what if they printed this instead:

Vial of Dragonfire
0
Artifact
T: You win the game.  Activate this ability only if you control a creature named Renowed Weaponsmith.

Would you play with this card then?  I'm not even sure you would!  Note that while this is arguably better than Stoneforge (albiet you dont get to cheat the card into play) it's not obvious that this is better than Hermit Druid, who ALSO wins when he taps and sees no play.

1UU and 1 upkeep win the game?  Sorry, this version would be on par or better than Tinker->Blightsteel.  

This card is far less restrictive than hermit druid.  Hermit druid sucks because you can't play basics and it needs the graveyard to function.  Making hermit druid decks basically a bad version of dredge with him, even so with a restriction to bazaar it would probably catapult into the best GY deck almost instantly.  I'd assume hermit druid still is banned in legacy for a reason.

Can we stop with the hypothetical versions and just wait and see just how bad Vial of Dragonfire is?

[Protoaddict]

In theory, I like the way they made this guy. Hes flavorful, he has applications in draft, he powers up otherwise chaff cards. It is like a more controlled stoneforge mystic, because stoneforge can still potentially get better and better as new equips are made, but this guys has many more limits on his head. It reminds me of that witch who had the cauldron and newt in one of the base sets.

It's actually good design at this point too, because it lets WOTC build out defined combo/synergy packages for decks to run without making them too wide open for potential abuse in the future, which could be a useful tool in the future if they want to add new archetypes to eternal formats without interacting with a lot of the old card pool. If they made a strong enough locked down strategy that didn't need/want most of the power cards or duals it could even open up the format much how dredge did before bazaar price hiked to the point it was no longer a budget deck.

HOWEVER... This guys is not going to be vintage playable. If this guy allowed you to grab any 2 of the best vintage artifacts by name right now instead of what he has listed on him, I am still unsure he would supplant trinket mage. If Vial is good, it still will probably suffer the same issue that other "cards named by other cards" suffer. Remember Spirit of the night, where you could assemble his goon squad and sac them to bring him into play? It was usually better to not even bother with those guys and instead ritual him out or cast a grave recursion thing on him. Kookus was often times playable without Keeper of Kookus. A deck can run Shadowborn demon without the need of Shadowborne apostle and instead could probably just use a dredge thing instead to fill the yard to much better effect.

The only way I can see this ever seeing play is if the vial is something salvagers wants or is an alternate way to go infinite for them, but considering trinket mage already gets every piece that deck needs to go off I still have issue believing it could ever happen.

[zeus-online]

It's actually good design at this point too, because it lets WOTC build out defined combo/synergy packages for decks to run without making them too wide open for potential abuse in the future, which could be a useful tool in the future if they want to add new archetypes to eternal formats without interacting with a lot of the old card pool. If they made a strong enough locked down strategy that didn't need/want most of the power cards or duals it could even open up the format much how dredge did before bazaar price hiked to the point it was no longer a budget deck.

I think that is pretty much the definition of boring design, since it does not really allow players to figure out how to use the cards and thus it can only ever do that one thing.

[Wagner]

Although I do agree that this is unplayable for vintage, there is something that hasn't been mentioned, it's that this guy basically draws you cards for 1 mana. Yes, they are crappy equipment, but with Brainstorm, Scroll Rack or top of the deck stuff, it's basically an effect similar to Land Tax or Squadron Hawk. I don't think that it's good enough, but worth mentioning.

[Meddling Mike]

If I had to guess, I would think that Vial of Dragonfire is probably some cheap artifact that has a cute little combo with the heart-piercer bow. Probably something that destroys creatures that have been dealt damage this turn. It'll probably be a cute limited combo that takes 3 niche borderline playable draft cards and let's you assemble Voltron and do something powerful by limited standards. But that's not really the topic of discussion here.

The topic of discussion here was whether or not this card is Vintage playable. We discussed his first ability and determined that it is at best a marginal improvement over Vedalken Engineer because it's +0/+2, but it doesn't produce colored mana like Vedalken Engineer, so it might be a marginal disadvantage when speaking about sunburst cards (Engineered Explosives), Phyrexian mana artifacts (Porcelain Legionnaire, Slash Panther or Phyrexian Metamorph), artifacts with colored activation costs (i.e.Door to Nothingness) or other colored artifacts (i.e. Master of Etherium). Whether you think he's slightly better than Vedalken Engineer is irrelevant as Vedalken Engineer is nowhere near Vintage playable and rightly so.

So it falls to the second ability to make this card playable. Heart-Piercer bow provides an effect that has been relevant in Vintage. Lava Dart was a thing. Darkblast still is from time to time. It still seems like way too much work for that effect than I would like and it happens too slowly and conditionally. As such, it falls to the mystery card to get this card over the hump. What card could exist that would be enough to make this card playable?  I took about 10 seconds to cook up the most powerful effect that this could be paired with. When I was still doubtful that this card was playable it was clear to me that this card would never see play and we could stop discussing it. I think that's a totally reasonable and practical line of reasoning, everybody else seems to understand my point and for some reason you've determined that this is trolling.

You seem to be taking issue that my hypothetical Vial of Dragonfire isn't the absolute best thing that they could ever print for this card. There's probably some truth to that. Maximum C Dawg made the card narrower with a very specific restriction that makes Renowned Weaponsmith more essential to the process so you can't just replace it with generic tutors or Trinket Mage. You wanted something that combos with his first ability and gets better in multiples? How about this?

Vial of Dragonfire  
Artifact
Nonartifact spells cost more to cast.

How's that? Is that working for you? They're printed similar effects in the past with Lodestone Golem and at similar costs with Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst, so printing this card shouldn't be completely outside the realm of possibility. It gets better in multiples. It's castable with weaponsmith's first ability and as a bonus costing puts it just out of range for Trinket Mage. If your deck is mostly artifacts the effect will be non-symmetrical and you'll be able to make good use of Renowned Weaponsmith's first ability elsewhere. Would even this be enough to make you want to play Renowned Weaponsmith? I doubt it. I think this hypothetical Vial would be a staple, but probably not weaponsmith. You would probably just want to cram the Vials into existing Workshop shells and make 17sphere instead of getting caught up in the run around of trying to support this guy's casting/activation costs. If I have to go this deep to try and find plausible scenarios where he might see Vintage play I'm comfortable writing it off and moving on, which is what I'm doing.

[fsecco]

If Vial of Dragonfire is an equipment, I'd guess it has the "dragon breath" ability in it. (1: +1/+0 or something like it), so this guy can be a beater by his own. At least it would seem to go with the flavor.

If it's not, I'd say it could be something like an Aeolipile.

That said, I'd could even add that, flavorwise, it could be possible that the two-artifacts, once in play, have an added effect. Much like the Kaldra equipments. For example, Vial could be

Equip 2.
1: +1/+0 until end of turn. If this creature is equipped with Heart Piercer Bow, it also gains Deathtouch

So, flavorwise, you would be using Dragonfire on your Bow to kill bigger creatures.

[serracollector]

The Bow does the damage not the creature its equipped to, so deathtouch would not work.  Already looked at this.

[Protoaddict]

In perhaps the greatest trolling of all time, Vial of Dragonfire is not in this set and will not be a card likely until Dragons of Tarkir.

Bravo WOTC, Bravo.

[fsecco]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA "brilliant"

We got a dragonfire card. Seems to me Vial could be an Aeolipile of sorts.

[Prospero]

This card is unplayable.

The point of the card is mana acceleration, but in order to be able to cast it, you need to run a colored mana base that is capable of reliably casting him.  We know what one piece of the equipment is, and even if we don't know exactly what the second is, I have a hard time seeing this thing becoming playable in the future.  Umezawa's Jitte is one of the most powerful pieces of equipment ever printed and it doesn't see play.  Once in a while you'll see Sword of Fire and Ice, or Sword of Feast and Famine, but even that hasn't happened in a while.

Vintage is a format where you need to constantly pressure your opponent.  Assembling Voltron would be fun, but if you're going to assemble anything, Vault/Key, Tinker/BSC, and a slew of other things are far more worthy of your time.

[TheWhiteDragon]

He COULD work in shops that runs 4x cavern of souls.  "Artificer" would poop out Welder and this guy.  Not that it'd be worth it or he'd be any good...but with tolarian academy and 4 caverns (already running welders) I could see it as a possibility...at least the ability to cast him.

[gkraigher]

anyone remember this card?



because that is what this card is. 

[Demonic Attorney]

Alright folks, we're done here.  Move along, there's still 184 other cards in this set to devise specious arguments for playability alongside Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will in Vintage.