Unrestricted Gifts in the 2015 Meta

[mini1337s]

I've only played Vintage for the last 2 years so I'm not very familiar with the 4x Gifts decks of the past. From what I've been able to dredge up, most of the decks that played 4 Gifts also ran them with 4 Brainstorm (seems very strong with putting Gifts targets back in your library) and 4 Merchant Scroll, both of which have since been restricted. The piles don't look too dramatically different from what they used to be (Yawg or CA piles generally) with a few new inclusions in the form of Snapcaster, Noxious Revival, etc.
My question to the drain is twofold; can/should Gifts be played like the older Meandeck versions or should it generally be used as it has been while restricted AND what are strong strategies/piles to consider in the modern Vintage format?

[H]

I also missed the Gifts era too, I started playing Vintage in about 2010.

Without 4 Brainstorms I don't think 4 Gifts is really where we'd want to be though.  I could be wrong, but that is a high CMC times 4.  Possibly though, we might want to have 4 Mana Drains again though, especially since DDT is still legal as a 4 of.

[Protoaddict]

Gifts decks need to be reevaluated all together since the game has changed so very much since they were legal. A gifts deck at the least is going to need to be able to compete against

Shops decks that play spheres
Grave hate the likes of which did not exists 5 years ago
Tempo and Aggro creature decks being viable
Much better counterspells

I am not all together convinced it will even be a deck just yet, so much as it may just be a very fancy card advantage card for some lists that also happens to fill the yard, which is not terrible in its own right.

[xouman]

While I agree that spheres, graveyard hate and counterspells are a fact, it's also true that gifts can win the game itself. Being a instant is really relevant, and when facing graveyard hate, it's still a 2x1, even if you are fetching for another gifts, and manipulation (or even lands/moxen). I think gifts is totally playable, but to be honest I don't expect it to dominate vintage the rest of 2015.

[ApolloGod]

Gifts is high CMC (especially for vintage,) but when you're spending 4 mana to potentially win the game (on turn 2/3 with good acceleration,) it's fine I think.

I'm brewing lists with 4x Gifts, and some number of deathrite and abrupt decay. I can handle Grafdigger and there's enough filtering/tutoring available that I should be able to craft a win without gifts (tinker inkwell), or craft a win with a proper Gifts pile.

With enough recursion and draw effects, I think 4 Gifts is a good number (but I might end up with 3.) Gifts followed by another Gifts (next turn, or whenever,) is a fun sequence. The first pile can be strategic and the second pile can be a fine-tuned win package with 2 or 3 enablers depending on the win condition. In my testing, I've never been upset to have multiple Gifts.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Not to mention ritual gifts can ignore grave hate and just win via bombs/storm piles...

Drain variants would suffer more from grave hate for sure

[desolutionist]

I've played Vintage for quite a while and I don't even have to test to tell you that 2-4 Gifts Ungiven will rule many tournaments to come. I continued to play a single copy of Gifts in all of my decks since it's restriction and I won every time it resolved.

For those of you who haven't played in Gifts era, just wait till you're looking at an opponent, who just has better cards than you. I believe a deck with full power and 2-4 Gifts will be the standard because you can't beat it with what's being played now

Josh, Drain variants can just win with Tinker like usual. I would be more on the Yawgmoths Will plan with Dark Ritual and Tendrils.  Also, EtW is a little better in Gifts Drain decks and should be good against parts of the existing meta

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I've played Vintage for quite a while and I don't even have to test to tell you that 2-4 Gifts Ungiven will rule many tournaments to come. I continued to play a single copy of Gifts in all of my decks since it's restriction and I won every time it resolved.

For those of you who haven't played in Gifts era, just wait till you're looking at an opponent, who just has better cards than you. I believe a deck with full power and 2-4 Gifts will be the standard because you can't beat it with what's being played now

I agree shawn...I'm already testing it...it's insane

[zeus-online]

.

[Protoaddict]

Cage is good against gifts, but since it does not stop the spell from resolving or being cast there are plenty of cards to deal with it including Mental Misstep. Also you can always make gift piles like Ancient Grudge, Regrowth, Lotus, engineered explosives or you know whatever.

[diopter]

Gifts was so insane in its heyday because you could literally take a neutral game state where you and your opponent have a few lands and Moxen and 1-card hands and nothing else, and either EOTGUGIW, or untap and get sooooo lucky and topdeck it. Of course, one can make one's own luck.

This fits in very nicely with Vintage decks with SoLoMoxenCrypt because suddenly the dreaded and inevitable mana flood draws are actually something you're OK with.

Of course the dreaded and inevitable mana screw is twice as bard. Hence the need for a good support shell - the Brainstorm/Scroll shell of old, for instance.

Gifts is going to have an uphill battle against Shops and maybe Dack Fayden stealing its Moxes. Of course, Dack Fayden is AMAZING at dealing with Shops and providing fuel for the fundamental turn. So that's probably a required 4-of. Gifts is uniquely equipped for 4-of Dack because you're tutoring, so you don't care about topdecking duds on your fundamental turn.

And, I'm coming around to the conclusion that every blue combo-control deck should be playing 1 Ponder + 4 Preordain. It's no Brianstorm, but it does a reasonable enough job regardless of letting you sculpt your hand to select the proper role in the game.

[Protoaddict]

I think for gifts we should understand the win packages first and work our way backwards to see how much space we have left after gifts/wincons/landsandmoxes. I would normally believe that this deck would just be pure control for the shops match up but based on what packages it can pull it may not have the slots for it.

That is to say, is Yawgs will / timevault / Key still the go to for this list or is there something better/newer?

[diopter]

Protoaddict, that might be putting the cart before the horse. I think we can take the following as home truths:

- Whatever package you tutor up should probably win the game in short order - ie you should be able to EOTGUGIW. Playing Gifts only for value, without a combo option, probably ranks lower than just jamming 4 DTT.

- You probably won't spend more than 5 slots for a dedicated win. If it isn't as compact as Will + Tinker + BSC + Vault-Key, it's probably going to lose you games by gumming up hands.

- You're probably going to be mana hungry.

Therefore, the first order problem with Gifts is solving the problem of Shops attacking your mana while still remaining strong in resource battles against Delver, Bomberman, Slaver, etc.

Your main strategic strength is that you are really fast at switching from control to combo. Probably as fast as Delver.

A tough nut to crack!

Dack would be my jumping-off point.

[v4ino]

I've played Vintage for quite a while and I don't even have to test to tell you that 2-4 Gifts Ungiven will rule many tournaments to come. I continued to play a single copy of Gifts in all of my decks since it's restriction and I won every time it resolved.

Shawn, I clearly remember beating you in the semi-finals of a tournament where you resolved an EOT Gifts against me.

In addition, I defeated JigglyPuff in T8 of SCG Boston after he resolved a Gifts in our game 3. Point is, choosing the correct line of play from each player's opening hand decides the match, not one card in most instances (...and having a properly built deck).

[desolutionist]

It's because Vin, you play what used to be the most unique deck and before I knew any better you would hit me with Wastelands, Cabal Therapy 2 FoWs at once, and Conseltation a Will for the win.

I used to see your decklists and think "how did he top8 with this?". Then you showed me how it was very thoroughly planned out

[vaughnbros]

It's because Vin, you play what used to be the most unique deck and before I knew any better you would hit me with Wastelands, Cabal Therapy 2 FoWs at once, and Conseltation a Will for the win

I think his point was just that beating a resolved gifts is possible even if maybe improbable.  It is a little bit scary that the deck that would've given it the most trouble is simultaneously crippled with the restriction of TC though.  Overall, I think gifts should open up a lot of creativity in the format as gifts can be played in a variety of different shells.

My question to the drain is twofold; can/should Gifts be played like the older Meandeck versions or should it generally be used as it has been while restricted AND what are strong strategies/piles to consider in the modern Vintage format?

You can play it in so many different ways.  The number of game ending and value piles that can be created is seemingly endless.  The key as many people seemed to have realized here is to get to the point where you can resolve a gifts. 

While the old meandeck versions were powerful in their heyday they are also hit by so much of the hate printed in the last 6+ years, and the meta is much different than it was back then.  Basically those versions are not likely be the optimal way to play Gifts anymore.

[serracollector]

With Cage and Rod or Stony being the cards main banes and with the unrestriction of Regrowth I think I would start with something that had four each of Lotus Cobra, Regrowth, Preordain, Gush, Gifts, and Dack then add counters, Win Conditions and Utility from there. This should help sure up mana issues and resilency versus Mud and help against Cage and Rod. Have not made a full list yet myself but this is where I would start then work on it from there personally. Turn one Lotus Cobra turn two Gifts just for CA is a huge start in a game.

[MisterFoote]

Ive been testing gifts in a Bug gush list.  DTT is just better.  Getting gifts back is nice, but In early testing it just isnt as effective as resolving dig.

[Chubby Rain]

Ive been testing gifts in a Bug gush list.  DTT is just better.  Getting gifts back is nice, but In early testing it just isnt as effective as resolving dig.

I didn't want to damper the enthusiasm for the new old card but I also think that Dig is the better card right now. That said, I'm going to enjoy testing with Gifts and Dig in the near future.

[enderfall]

In some ways, DTT is a better card: It can find the two cards YOU want (in the top 7), for all intents and purposes costs 1/2 as much (and gets around Spheres), and both are instants. The benefit to Gifts is two-fold: 1. You can construct piles where you actually "get" more than 2 cards (Snap, Recall, Walk, Will... etc.) 2. You get to search your entire library. Also, in some rare cases Gifts is playable in the face of GY hate, unlike DTT which is an uncastable card if you have no GY. I think the comparison is valid as both are extremely powerful cards, but Gifts is a more dynamic card.

[ApolloGod]

I prefer Gifts over DTT (in specific lists, not all lists) for a few reasons

1.) Back-to-back Gifts are recursively effective, whereas back-to-back DTT are difficult to cast (sometimes, not possible at all.)

2.) Repeated Gifts have added value because you'll be choosing from a smaller card pool and you can further fine-tune your successive Piles to be even more effective. Repeated DTT have diminishing value because a.) As in point 1 the graveyard is smaller and a second DTT might not be possible, and b.) If you've cast 2 DTT to get 4 cards you need, you've done so from size-neutral library (DTT puts unwanted cards back into your library, not into the graveyard), but 2 Gifts would have given you 4 cards you need/want from a single spell (if you've built the proper pile.)

3.) Sometimes, a resolved DTT can win the game (if you already have other cards you need), but more often it will enable a win by setting up the proper combo. A resolved Gifts, however, usually wins the game immediately if the pile is formed strictly with the combo in mind (i.e., there is no hate to combat.) Under duress of hate, Gifts still has an upper hand because the type of hate that hampers Gifts will most likely hamper DTT also (resolve it through sphere effects, access the graveyard, etc.)

[diopter]

Repeated DTT is actually amazing, if you can pull it off (it isn't trivial). Casting it twice is DTT's combo mode.

Meanwhile back to back Gifts underwhelms. You can follow up a value Gifts with a combo Gifts but that first value Gifts comes at a price - pulling four good cards from your library to get 2, thus reducing your topdeck quality.

The value of Gifts strategically is going from neutral game state to sure kill. That's it. Gifts for value are inferior to DTT's for value for so many reasons. It should strictly be plan B.

This is the principle upon which Gifts brews should be founded.

[ApolloGod]

...The value of Gifts strategically is going from neutral game state to sure kill. That's it. Gifts for value are inferior to DTT's for value for so many reasons. It should strictly be plan B.

This is the principle upon which Gifts brews should be founded.

Which is what brought me to my third point in my post above: The power of Gifts lies in the game's brevity after resolution: If you build the proper pile, you'll win. I was contrasting that with the need to do other value-added plays after a single DTT, because often a single DTT won't win the game (at least not as effectively as a single Gifts.)

[diopter]

Apollo: indeed. I just wanted to highlight that the value Gifts is probably not great, nor is the plan to Gifts twice. Something other than an initial Gifts is going to have to get you to the mana threshold for lethal Gifts.

In 2006 it was even debated. Smennen built Meandeck Gifts that provided the real value plays with Scroll, while Shortbus ran TfK as a bridge IIRC.

The value bridge in 2015 is probably going to be either Snapcaster or Dack.

[WhiteLotus]

Why compare them to one another, Dig and gifts aren't exclusive. Being able to gifts for value piles like Jace, gifts, Dtt and say demonic tutor is pretty powerful. The other way works too, digging into gifts + a tutor for will or snapcaster/Regrowth/nox is going to be game.

A split between both is advisable but the main problem is finding the right balance with other bombs. You will want powerful singletons such as tezzeret and jace in your gifts list. Gifts is a pretty slot intensive Card. Dig also asks that you have a decent redundancy of threats so that your average 7 cards have quality enough.

[desolutionist]

DTT is mostly just a glorified Impulse. How often will ACall be in the top7? Because I can almost always put it into a Gifts pile. If I make a pile of Drain, Fow, ACall, lotus isn't that good value? Better value than DTT?
Probably.

Night's Whisper is a good "value bridge". Also a possibility that wasn't before is Frantic Search.