New Gifts, without Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge

[brianpk80]

I tested Recoup in a Gifts list that had some Preordains and Probes and it was not an awful topdeck. 

[Machinus]

I tested Recoup in a Gifts list that had some Preordains and Probes and it was not an awful topdeck.  

There are times in the game when it is "dead," but this is similar to when you don't have enough mana to cast Gifts, or your yard is just too small to cast Will yet. So I don't see it as being a problem to draw it sometimes. You can utilize it to double Walk, DT, or Tinker, and then it's also really good in high-mana scenarios.

Also, Past in Flames doesn't get you Lotus back, which is really huge for comboing off.

[brianpk80]

Another thing I've tested is white for better Oath hate post-sb and Monastery Mentor.  Cutting Tinker + Robot for Monastery Mentor + X has worked out well, since the classic Gifts pile of Tinker/Time Walk/Recur/Recur has functioned just as well with Monastery Mentor/Time Walk/X/X.  With all the high CC bombs and awkward early game topdecks, converting Robot's slot into a flow-enabler like Preordain is huge.  White also gives access to sideboard Unburial Rites packages.  

Another noticeable feature of Gifts I learned from playing it modern is that it truly rewards playing singletons, by nature of the card's function itself.  Perhaps switching a Drain to a Flusterstorm would increase flexibility in an emergency Gifts for 4-counterspells type of situation.  

Congrats on a respectable finish at your event.  

[Machinus]

Another thing I've tested is white for better Oath hate post-sb and Monastery Mentor.  Cutting Tinker + Robot for Monastery Mentor + X has worked out well, since the classic Gifts pile of Tinker/Time Walk/Recur/Recur has functioned just as well with Monastery Mentor/Time Walk/X/X.  With all the high CC bombs and awkward early game topdecks, converting Robot's slot into a flow-enabler like Preordain is huge.  White also gives access to sideboard Unburial Rites packages.  

Another noticeable feature of Gifts I learned from playing it modern is that it truly playing singletons, by nature of the card's function itself.  Perhaps switching a Drain to a Flusterstorm would increase flexibility in an emergency Gifts for 4-counterspells type of situation.  

Congrats on a respectable finish at your event.  

Thanks. I have not tested Mentor at all. My instinct for Mentor is that you want a lot of cheap spells to resolve after Mentor is in play. So you would play Probe and Preordain. In that cast you really want to resolve Will instead of Recoup since you get all the spells. Past in Flames could be decent there if you have a bunch of probes. There's also Manamorphose and Cabal Therapy (eats and then makes a token for one card). If you can resolve Time Walk, there are plenty of ways to kill your opponent, but how good is Mentor when you aren't combing off? Tinker is really good regardless, however Mentor is better vs. MUD.

Adding another counter to Gifts for is something I do post-board. In Game 1, I am not sure I want to give up maximizing my drain mana triggers. But it's definitely good to cast in response to an opponent's threat.
 

[zeus-online]

.

[Smmenen]

Go read Swords to Plowshares (the card, not the oracle text) to understand RFG.

[DuKeLiO]

If you want to play Past in Flames, add at least one Dark Ritual to produce some mana. Probably it will be better in a Ritual Gifts deck like the 2007 one.
I'm not sure about how good will be the Unburial Rites package in Vintage. It seems too slow, but I think it deserves a try, beacuse it's completely game crushing against some deck like Ichorid (with Elesh Norn). It also can be better with Ritual, but I don't know.

[serracollector]

If you add white why not Auriok Salvagers for a bomberman type combo? something like y will salvager lotus and unburial? wouldnt that do it?

[Random Noob]

I currently test Ubrg Gifts with GushBond Engine. Somehow I am not happy setting up Vault/Key Piles, and have the feeling classy Recoup, Will, LED, Lotus works better with GushBond. I had once up to 3 Regrowths, but cutted them away, since I have the feeling 1off Recoup is stronger, since it can work out of the Grave.

This is what I am currently at:

Manabase
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

Engine
1 Fastbond
4 Gush
3 Gifts Ungiven

Kill
1 Recoup
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Tendrils of Agony

Cantrips
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm

Control
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
1 Rebuild

Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

Sideboard
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Abrupt Decay

[emidln]

The classic 10 counters and LED plan.

[desolutionist]

In my opinion, Gifts always works best with combo pieces.

Easy example is when you have Time Vault in hand and you add Voltaic Key to the Gifts pile. Now you're either getting infinite turns or 2/3 of the remaining pile, making it easy to figure out a pile that "wins no matter what".  But if you don't have Time Vault, you can still add Voltaic Key to the pile and give your opponent the same decision, which can tell a lot about what they have.

So with that said I believe it's necessary to have multiple "combos" in a Gifts deck whether it be Yawgmoths Will, Tinker, Time Vault, Yawgmoth's Bargain, etc.  One of the strengths of Gifts is the ability to fake people out. Faking people out is going to be a lot easier if you have multiple avenues to victory.

Your hand is unknown to the opponent (supposedly) so if you put a Bargain into a Gifts pile, is the opponent willing to chance you having the Dark Ritual to cast it?  If so, then that means they have something and you can play accordingly.

[Aaron Patten]

I really like Snapcaster and Noxious Revival since they are the cheapest ways to assemble a two card combo such as vault key, tinker walk, or will bond.  Neither were in print when gifts was restricted and noxious revival is the worst of the two on the draw which bodes well since I think it is a relatively good card, especially in gush.  I think recoup is a bit too narrow personally and it seems likely that a gifts player would have a cantrip to draw the second combo piece when they gifts for key vault.  Noxious revival just seems more viable than recoup based on mana cost alone. 

[ApolloGod]

There are so many possibilities, that it's worth testing various Gifts brews in different combinations of colors. I do like the idea of a white splash. Balance is always a nice card to add to the Gifts pile, especially if they're on delver/pyromancer. I envision a pile of [Balance, Time Vault, Key, Noxious Revival.] They're forced between giving me access to combo pieces, or they can choose a board wipe. I'd probably choose this option if I had something else in hand to recur a combo piece or tutor for another wincon after Balance (tinker -> bot.)

At the present moment, my testing has revolved around BUG Gifts lists with red splash (for recoup -- not sold on that yet.) But, I'm eager to try a white splash (Balance, swords, enlightened tutor, or whatever else I can think of.) Of course, I could also try 5c and use Burning wish, but then I think the deck is diluted by trying to do to much. A solid combo Gifts deck with control elements is where I'm leaning.

I'll be doing additional testing for WUBG Gifts (splashing white for Balance.) I'm going to use both Noxious Revival and Regrowth. Both cards have so much utility.

[youhavenogame]

I'm not sure about how good will be the Unburial Rites package in Vintage. It seems too slow, but I think it deserves a try, beacuse it's completely game crushing against some deck like Ichorid (with Elesh Norn). It also can be better with Ritual, but I don't know.

Well, Unburial Rites costs as much as Gifts, so it is not much slower than Gifts is. The bigger problem is that it adds more variance. I don't think it has a place in the maindeck, but it might be a viable SB option - I'm sure there are some great creatures out there which help in specific situations. The best thing about this pile is that you leave no choice to your opponent and you don't need any additional setup. The worst thing is that it gets hit by graveyard disruption. The combo can be great, but there are a lot of ifs.

[brianpk80]

If you can resolve Time Walk, there are plenty of ways to kill your opponent, but how good is Mentor when you aren't combing off? Tinker is really good regardless, however Mentor is better vs. MUD.

It's really good.  Having your Yawgmoth's Will bring out Mentor + Time Walk is game ending.  Whether Tinker is really good is an open question.  I cringe when an opponent is on blue anything and my opening hand forces me into that path.  I'm only happy with it when it's Sphinx against Delver. 

[boggyb]

I made 11th at the Invitational yesterday with this list. It was a cut to top 16 and Mr. Seals put me away for the second time in a row in elimination rounds.

I was very pleased with it all day. The maindeck is about 58-59 cards correct, and the sideboard is pretty rough draft-ish -- I didn't have enough time to test it thoroughly, unfortunately. It's favored against everything that isn't running Mentor, Delver, Pyromancer, or Deathrite.


Grixis Gifts Control:

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Preordain
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm

2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Lightning Bolt

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap


Cards #59-60 are the Preordains, which took the place of a second Snapcaster and a seventh fetchland at the last minute. They were great for me all day. I do miss the second Snapcaster though and would try and fit it in somewhere if I had to play tomorrow.

[desolutionist]

I made 11th at the Invitational yesterday with this list. It was a cut to top 16 and Mr. Seals put me away for the second time in a row in elimination rounds.

I was very pleased with it all day. The maindeck is about 58-59 cards correct, and the sideboard is pretty rough draft-ish -- I didn't have enough time to test it thoroughly, unfortunately. It's favored against everything that isn't running Mentor, Delver, Pyromancer, or Deathrite.


Grixis Gifts Control:

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Preordain
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm

2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Lightning Bolt

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap


Cards #59-60 are the Preordains, which took the place of a second Snapcaster and a seventh fetchland at the last minute. They were great for me all day. I do miss the second Snapcaster though and would try and fit it in somewhere if I had to play tomorrow.

I'm assuming you're looking for critique so I'm going to give it to you:

With Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven, Tinker, and Tolarian Academy in the maindeck and 2 Goblin Welders in the sideboard, it appears as though Mana Vault is missing from this deck.

Also, 4x Dark Confidant, 3x Jace, 2x Lightning Bolt, 2 Preordain, no Tendrils, no Recoup, etc. makes it seem like you just want to play a Bob Control deck

[Machinus]

I made 11th at the Invitational yesterday with this list. It was a cut to top 16 and Mr. Seals put me away for the second time in a row in elimination rounds.

I was very pleased with it all day. The maindeck is about 58-59 cards correct, and the sideboard is pretty rough draft-ish -- I didn't have enough time to test it thoroughly, unfortunately. It's favored against everything that isn't running Mentor, Delver, Pyromancer, or Deathrite.


Grixis Gifts Control:

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Preordain
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm

2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Lightning Bolt

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap


Cards #59-60 are the Preordains, which took the place of a second Snapcaster and a seventh fetchland at the last minute. They were great for me all day. I do miss the second Snapcaster though and would try and fit it in somewhere if I had to play tomorrow.

In terms of strategy, this is a board control deck with 2 gifts in it rather than a Gifts-centered deck. But good finish

[boggyb]

Right, it's a Bob Jace control deck with Gifts as a finisher. It's not a ramp-to-Gifts-cast-Gifts-win deck. However, plan #1 is to cast Gifts and win off it after stabilizing the board so I thought this the most appropriate place to list it -- it's very close to the list in the OP, actually. I think of it as coming from the same school as, say, Rich Shay's 2011 Champs top 8 list: heavy control elements yielding a combo finish.

Re: Mana Vault, you're right. I think if I played it tomorrow I'd do -2 Preordain +1 Mana Vault +1 Ponder, and put a Snapcaster in the board. Thanks for the thoughts.

[Smmenen]

The Gifts lists I've seen so far here and elsewhere are remarkably uninspired and underwhelming.  I'm disappointed in not only how little creativity I've seen in Gifts lists in over two weeks of experimentation, but how badly these lists seem to actually attack the format.  

I'm publishing my Gifts lists on eternal centrals Gifts week this week (in a free article). It only took me a day or two to brew up a much stronger list than any I've seen published, and it's been testing extremely well against Delver (esp recently) and Workshops.

I'm certain that my Gifts list will be the model for the archetype going forward.  #shotscalled

[Machinus]

The Gifts lists I've seen so far here and elsewhere are remarkably uninspired and underwhelming.  I'm disappointed in not only how little creativity I've seen in Gifts lists in over two weeks of experimentation, but how badly these lists seem to actually attack the format.  

I'm publishing my Gifts lists on eternal centrals Gifts week this week (in a free article). It only took me a day or two to brew up a much stronger list than any I've seen published, and it's been testing extremely well against Delver (esp recently) and Workshops.

I'm certain that my Gifts list will be the model for the archetype going forward.  #shotscalled

I'm doing well with my list. I think so far this thread has been pretty positive and interesting until your post.

[desolutionist]

Even though he's kind of mean, Steve has repeatedly set the standard. (Especially for Gifts) So I want see his work!

[beder]

The Gifts lists I've seen so far here and elsewhere are remarkably uninspired and underwhelming.  I'm disappointed in not only how little creativity I've seen in Gifts lists in over two weeks of experimentation, but how badly these lists seem to actually attack the format.  

I'm publishing my Gifts lists on eternal centrals Gifts week this week (in a free article). It only took me a day or two to brew up a much stronger list than any I've seen published, and it's been testing extremely well against Delver (esp recently) and Workshops.

I'm certain that my Gifts list will be the model for the archetype going forward.  #shotscalled

I guess someone must have hacked the TMD account of Steve and is posting some highly judgmental, boastful and arrogant posts...

[Chubby Rain]

Even though he's kind of mean, Steve has repeatedly set the standard. (Especially for Gifts) So I want see his work!

My issue with Steve was never his playskill or his decklists. Rather it's the condescending, arrogant, egocentric posts, the advertisement of premium content on a public forum in multiple threads, being a complete tool to Rob Edwards in the top 8 of the last NYSE before punting away the match (karma), and I have a few more reasons but they get a bit mean so I'm going to keep it to those three.

#shotscalled

Edit:
1) Don't you remember that match, Steve? That was when you had a 5-minute discussion with a judge about why you should be able to Misdirect Rob's Memory's Journey despite it having FOUR targets. In case you honestly don't remember how you acted, you proceeded to gloat in game 3 despite your opponent mulliganing, numerous times loudly extolling the quality of the cards you were drawing while giggling like a little schoolgirl. That was, of course, before you inexplicably tapped out to cast a Trygon Predator and let Rob put a Griselbrand into play.

2) It was obviously tongue-in-cheek but how did you think people were going to respond to it? What relevance did it have to the thread? What actual meaning am I as a peruser of this forum supposed to take from that post? beder does a much better job of making a tongue-in-cheek statement:

I guess someone must have hacked the TMD account of Steve and is posting some highly judgmental, boastful and arrogant posts...

[The Atog Lord]

Steve has said that everyone else's lists are bad, and that his list is much better. He has, in fact, claimed that the archetype will be defined by his work. Maybe Steve will redefine Gifts. Maybe Steve will do for gifts this time what Brassman did for it last time. Maybe Steve's Gifts Ungiven decklist will cure Abu Jafar of being a Leper while causing all three factions of the Three Kingdoms to join hands and sing in harmony.

Who knows? Since we can't see his decklist, we can't verify any of that. But what we can see is that this thread is for discussing Gifts Ungiven, not Steve Menendian. Please keep it that way.

[nedleeds]

Maybe Steve's Gifts Ungiven decklist will cure Abu Jafar of being a Leper while causing all three factions of the Three Kingdoms to join hands and sing in harmony.

OT: But several ounces of coffee were ejected from my mouth onto my keyboard. Thank you for that.

I think the title of the thread prompted everyone to open it and see a list starting with Gifts x 4, thus some of the misunderstanding. Would your deck played out that differently with a Fact or Fiction vs. the second gifts?

[Samoht]

The Gifts lists I've seen so far here and elsewhere are remarkably uninspired and underwhelming.  I'm disappointed in not only how little creativity I've seen in Gifts lists in over two weeks of experimentation, but how badly these lists seem to actually attack the format.  

I'm publishing my Gifts lists on eternal centrals Gifts week this week (in a free article). It only took me a day or two to brew up a much stronger list than any I've seen published, and it's been testing extremely well against Delver (esp recently) and Workshops.

I'm certain that my Gifts list will be the model for the archetype going forward.  #shotscalled

I hope they end up as strong as Burning Oath was! #shotsmissed

[The Atog Lord]

I hope they end up as strong as Burning Oath was!

Ouch. Well, I admit, not all of my ideas have panned out well.

[Smmenen]

Even though he's kind of mean, Steve has repeatedly set the standard. (Especially for Gifts) So I want see his work!

My issue with Steve was never his playskill or his decklists. Rather it's the condescending, arrogant, egocentric posts, the advertisement of premium content on a public forum in multiple threads, being a complete tool to Rob Edwards in the top 8 of the last NYSE before punting away the match (karma), and I have a few more reasons but they get a bit mean so I'm going to keep it to those three.

#shotscalled

<Insert red text here>

My hashtag was an attempt to signal my tongue firmly in cheek.  

But since you've taken my post so seriously, I'm curious to know exactly how "I was a tool" to Rob Edwards at the NYSE.  I don't recall exchanging but a few words before our match.  In fact, the only thing I recall is that he asked me if I had won alot of Moxen (by making top 8 we won a Mox), and I replied affirmatively.

EDIT:

"Edit:
1) Don't you remember that match, Steve? That was when you had a 5-minute discussion with a judge about why you should be able to Misdirect Rob's Memory's Journey despite it having FOUR targets. In case you honestly don't remember how you acted, you proceeded to gloat in game 3 despite your opponent mulliganing, numerous times loudly extolling the quality of the cards you were drawing while giggling like a little schoolgirl. That was, of course, before you inexplicably tapped out to cast a Trygon Predator and let Rob put a Griselbrand into play."

So, I'm a "tool" because I had to ask the judge how Memory's Journey worked with Misdirection and because I got excited and showed enthusiasm about my hand/draws?  Riiiight.  Anyone whose ever watched me play Magic since, I dunno, ever, knows that I get super enthusiastic about my cards, lines of play, etc.  That's how the term "So Many Insane Plays" came about.  Mat Endress pointed out that I used to say that to myself all of the time at SCG tournaments. Being enthusiastic about drawing cards or opening hands is not a crime.  And, as for the confusion around Memory's Journey, lots of people were confused about it.  Tom Dixon said, at the table, "so you only can misdirect it if you have one target, right?" when you need to have 0 targets, underscoring the confusion. And the discussion involving the judge did not take 5 minutes.  It was a brief discussion.  Your framing of that suggests that I was trying to do something untoward or shady.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Everyone was confused. That's why we have judges to clarify issues like that. It's absurd to call me a "tool" for those reasons.  No reasonable person should have been offended by my excitement or the general confusion around Misdirection and Memory's Journey. It's ridiculous to try to paint that as something offensive.

[Space_Stormy]

To get the thread back on track,

Most of the lists posted here are just trying to redo the Gifts lists of old into a new shell of Tinker/BSC(DSC) Tendrils or Vault+Key/Tezz.  Reading his post I can see that all my thought processes have been the same way.  So, what have we been doing and how can we change it?

Old gifts:Mana Drain powered Brainstormx4 and Merchant Scrollx4 that gets Ancestral Recall and Gifts Ungiven.  Gifts for Recoup-Time Walk-Tinker-Yawg Will, attack twice with DSC for the win.  Also plays a Tendrils or an Empty the Warrens for storm kills with Gifts for mana sources or big Yagmoth's Will turns.

In 2007 the decks to beat were Flash+Hulk, The onset of Bazaar powered Dredge, Dark Ritual Storm decks, Fish, Bomberman and Workshop decks which were usually prison over aggro and ran Goblin Welder.  Gifts postioned itself to have more threats that the Fish decks could handle, the counterspells to deal with the combo decks, tendrils and Flash and the Hurkyl's Recall and Empty the Warrens to fight the Stax decks.

It was built to have multiple routes to victory with enough consistency to make dead draws minimal.  You could maindeck a Hurkyl's Recall Since you could tutor for it six ways directly, 4x Scroll plus Vamp and DT, or put it into Gifts piles for extra storm.  You could put it back with Brainstorm or pitch it to FOW.

So, basically my point of all this is that we aren't building our Gifts Ungiven decks for today's metagame.  We are just porting in decks of old which were built for different times.  So what is different?

-The Delver Archetype
-Oath of Druids Archetype
-Gristlebrand
-Time Vault Errata back into combo form
-No Flash Combo
-Gush x4 and Burning Wishx4 is Legal
-Workshop decks are about Spheres and beaters.  Not Smokestack and Goblin Welder
-Dredge is a deck we need to devote 6-8 SB slots for
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-Blightsteel Colossus making the Tinker path a 1 turn kill

So from here we have a new point of entry to think on.  Or I guess we can wait for Steve and just talk about that.

(Big thanks to Steve's "The 2007 Vintage Year in Review" article for helping me with the 2007 Vintage Metagame!)