TheManaDrain.com
January 21, 2020, 07:39:20 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: The Life Cycle of an Empire  (Read 4881 times)
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2015, 01:12:46 am »

I will be the first to admit to being concerned with numbers. I suppose that being concerned with numbers is an unfortunate side effect of being a scientist. But I will try to wade into the world of non-numeric qualitative analysis for this discussion if that is your preference.

Quote
we have enough resources to feed everyone.

Preventing people from starving to death isn't a simple matter of having the extra food and then handing it to hungry people. I can't exactly take my leftover pizza and hand it off to some poor person starving in a third-world country. There are infrastructure-based and governmental-based barriers to that. So, even if we have enough resources to feed everyone, that doesn't mean we can get everyone fed.

Quote
the amount of people governed by non-capitalist or capitalist controlled organizations is miniscule.

I guess the populations of China and Russia are miniscule. I'll need to have a word with the good people who sold me my atlas -- they have some explaining to do.

Quote
you're so firmly in the corner of neoliberalism you don't even see it as taking sides...you've pre-judged this and land firmly on the side of neoliberal ideology.

Well, that's interesting, since I'd never even heard of neoliberalism before. Please quote where I've been a neoliberalist above so I can learn.

So, you're dismissing capitalism, and saying that the whole world is capitalist. It isn't that I am a huge fan of capitalism -- it's that everything else history has ever shown us is even worse. But, perhaps you have some brilliant solution. As Plato wrote, it's easier to ask questions than to answer them. So, if capitalism is some horrid system that leads to mass-starvation and slaughter, what do you propose to extricate us from this situation?
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2015, 01:30:43 am »


Preventing people from starving to death isn't a simple matter of having the extra food and then handing it to hungry people.
we could do a whole hell of a lot better than we're even thinking about attempting rn and in fact some studies suggest it could be done for just 30 bn a year
you claim to be interested in firm science and then continue to throw around vague denials like this.


I guess the populations of China and Russia are miniscule. I'll need to have a word with the good people who sold me my atlas -- they have some explaining to do.
those are both market based economies and firmly in the purview of capital

Well, that's interesting, since I'd never even heard of neoliberalism before. Please quote where I've been a neoliberalist above so I can learn.
you don't even know what neoliberal means but you think I need to study more history?


 
everything else history has ever shown us is even worse.
really tired trope. if you wanna argue in circles around cliches may i direct you to http://www.revleft.com/vb/

what do you propose to extricate us from this situation?

full communism

let me boil it down very simply before i stop engaging with this thread entirely
7 billion people now face the prospect of no future. of our grandchildren (possibly even children) dying of starvation on an uninhabitable rock. all so that 85 people could control more wealth than over 50% of the population
nothing short of the extinction of our species is the cost of our actions in the 20th and 21st century. defending capitalism means defending not only its long legacy of violence, not only the unacceptable conditions of 6ish billion people today, but the xenocide of the innumerable people who would have come in future generations
if you wanna deny that it's too late to avert the worst of the climate crisis, fine that's pretty en vogue rn. but dont come talking to me about science and data after if you aren't going to listen to the repeated warnings of ecologists and climatoligist
Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2015, 01:55:14 am »

Well, people have tried communism. It has ended very, very poorly. Like, mass-graves and great-leap-forward poorly.

You can argue that communism hasn't been successfully implemented. I would argue, in fact, that it has little to no chance to be implemented as Marx intended for any large-scale group of people. Marx had envisioned that the communist revolution would be lead by a distinct core of determined fighters -- his revolutionary vanguard, as I believe the Bolsheviks called themselves when they weren't busy turning incompetent Tsars into saints.

At any rate, in order for Marx's vision of a communist utopia to take shape, this revolutionary vanguard would need to take the power of the state unto themselves -- what the Romans from our earlier discussion would call imperium. And then, having assumed that imperium, they would need subsequently to relinquish that imperium in order to create a society devoid of class and tier and hierarchy.

And it is that step -- that abdication -- that is entirely necessary to Marx's plan -- that ruins the whole idea. It is exceedingly rare for a person to step down from power when he could go on and continue to hold it. And even more rare for a bureaucracy to abandon power voluntarily. See my earlier comments about Cincinnatus and Washington for how rare this is. And then -- these were individual men and not an entire apparatus. And not just any apparatus, but an apparatus strong enough to overthrow the existing capitalist structure.

This isn't just a theoretical strike against communism, either. Rather, this is quite directly what happened both in Russia and in China. The apparatus that overthrow the prior state -- that revolutionary vanguard -- did not dissolve itself as Marx intended. Instead, it clung to power with an iron fist. Well, with a steel fist in Russia. And it has yet to let go. And I dare say it won't let go, but rather continue to cling on as any bureaucracy will do. And that, VibeBox, is why communism won't work.

And for the record, I'm not a neo liberal. I'm a cynic.
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 02:26:10 am »

And for the record, I'm not a neo liberal. I'm a cynic.
you literally just regurgitated some of the go-to deflections and empty arguments used by neoliberal ideology, and you've admitted you aren't familiar with it, yet you're certain it is not the framework of your worldview. you're simply not as knowledgeable about economic systems and histories as you think you are
your...um..."argument" against communism is basically just a "human nature" cliche and a tautological presenting of problems with past regimes you assert are intractable and fatal flaws.
i could sit here and sling back the same tired shit with capital instead of communism inserted to show you how devoid of content they are (capitalism works on paper but it's never created an equitable society, lol) but it's a waste of time because im not going to change any minds here obv.
for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind, i see more deaths on the hands of capital every year, and we're obviously never going to agree on that

again, here's more suggested reading
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2189191.An_Economic_History_of_the_USSR
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2029452.Socialism_Betrayed?ac=1
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/the-lies-we-tell-about-lenin/
i am entirely genuine in offering files of any of the texts i have recommended ITT
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 02:31:01 am by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2015, 03:37:18 am »

Quote
yet you're certain it is not the framework of your worldview.


I just looked it up on Wikipdeia. It doesn't match my view. But that's neither here nor there, since we're discussing ideas, and my own political ideas aren't relevant.

Quote
you're simply not as knowledgeable about economic systems and histories as you think you are

I never claimed to be an expert on economics. None of my degrees are in that, and I've only taken a few classes on the subject. Never claimed expertise there.

For history, I know there is always more I can learn. But what I do know is that, historically, the problems with communism I've described above are consistent. Rather than refuting the argument, you gave some hand-waving dismissal about how it is a "cliche." Well, the argument against drinking cyanide is also a cliche, but that doesn't mean it's any less true.

Quote
and a tautological presenting of problems with past regimes you assert are intractable and fatal flaws.

Well, that's basically how science works. A given action, taken repeatedly, yields the same result. Maybe it will be different in some subsequent trial. But as far as predicting the future based on the past goes, the winning bet appears to be on repetition.


Quote
(capitalism works on paper but it's never created an equitable society, lol)

I've never claimed equity as a goal.


Quote
for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind

Is it all a lie, then? The purges under Stalin? The murder of the entire Russian clergy under the Bolsheviks? And the famines under Mao? And the Cultural Revolutions? Are those merely lies?

Or are the men who call themselves Communist not "true" communists like you, and so don't represent and therefore defame communism?
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
JarofFortune
Basic User
**
Posts: 356



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2015, 03:45:28 am »

for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind, i see more deaths on the hands of capital every year, and we're obviously never going to agree on that
If that's not an inflammatory statement I don't know what is. Are you just going to ignore the countless eyewitness testimonials, scholarly research, and photographs on the Holodomor and forget the unnecessary deaths of millions of people? If you want context, Mao tried the same policy of collectivization as well. We all know how the Great Leap Forward ended up.

I'm not denying that American Capitalism is not always a force for good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#cite_note-fas990812-41
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1999/08/990812-unicef.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany#Effects_during_the_war

http://gmopundit.blogspot.com/2011/07/greenpeace-sabotage-food-security-in.html

http://www.thenation.com/article/161057/wikileaks-haiti-let-them-live-3-day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

But show me one Communist Country where as many people live with a high standard of living as they do in the United States and Western Europe. Just one. You can't, and I'd bet that's why you feel the need to trick yourself into thinking that the Soviet Union didn't instigate a genocidal famine. Despite its failures, capitalism has been a much more positive force overall on humanity than Communism. Every Communist Country in history has had a ruling and privileged elite, just as Capitalism does. The difference is that on average, in Communist countries the common person has had a lower standard of living and less freedoms than their counterparts in the United States. If you're a Ukrainian farmer in 1930, it doesn't matter that you're starving. Stalin's word is law and there's nothing you can do about your grain being shipped off to Moscow while your family suffers. When you are a farmer, your land is your livelihood. Without it, you can not make a living in your profession. When the government owns your land, you have no control over the fruits of your labor. It is completely at the mercy of whoever is in power. This is why there has never been a biblical-scale famine in the United States.

Rich made a very good point about America's rebuilding of its "conquered" countries. Looking at the legacy we have left all over the world makes me proud to be an American. When Korea was divided along the 38th parallel, the Soviets gained influence over the North Half and the United States over the South. The South did have a rocky start, true, but look at where the two countries are now in relation to each other. South Korea is a very modern nation with a strong economy. North Korea is weak and still recovering from the famine their collective(i.e. Communist) farming policies caused.

Communism in its purest form cannot work. If agricultural land is not shared in common, then it is not Communism, and collectivizing land does not work. The two largest Communist nations in history have tried collectivizing farmland, and both times it their efforts have resulted in famine. The Great Leap Forward, in fact, is considered the deadliest famine in human history.
Logged

The Auriok have fought the metal hordes for so long now that knowing how to cripple them has become an instinct. -Metal Fatigue
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2015, 01:07:26 pm »

I don't get this hostility to numbers that Capt. Communism here is displaying.  How do you know something is a problem unless you measure it?  It's all well and good to complain about how bad things are happening and you have some sources to suggest the causes of those bad things are institutional.  Cause and effect is an actual discussion we could have if you could be specific about each evil you want to talk about.

When you start to spout off stuff like this: "holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind, i see more deaths on the hands of capital every year" then one wonders what the math actually is.  You're making a simple mathematical statement here: "MORE" people die "on the hands of capital" every year.  Okay, so what are the actual numbers you are comparing?  How many people die "on the hands of capital" and how many die of other reasons?  I'm putting your phrase in quotes not to diminish it, but because I'm not entirely sure what falls into that category and what does not, so I'm just preserving your term of art.

Let me suggest something.  It's pretty clear that you bristle at the suggestion that modern society, with all its flaws, is preferable to what has gone before.  So let's not talk about that.  Using historical examples, since that's the point of this thread, what do you think the United States SHOULD be doing to improve the state of the world?  Like, specifically?

I'll start: acknowledge that the Homeland Security apparatus is a police function instead of a military function and start scaling back activity in other countries such as drone strikes in an attempt to try to set a different precedent than we're currently setting.
Logged
vaughnbros
Basic User
**
Posts: 1574


View Profile Email
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2015, 01:27:44 pm »

It's pretty standard statistical practice to use proportions over raw numbers when comparing populations of different sizes.  As for actually drawing inferences from the numbers there a certainly a number of confounding factors between the relationship of government type and violence that would be difficult to tease apart especially with the imperfect data that we have.  Doing anything historically the data reliability is sketchy at best and usually completely missing.

That being said we always assume there is no difference until proven otherwise.  There are no facts to prove that capatalism or the US are worse than other government systems and other empires.  Therefore making statements like the US is the worst is absurd without providing support for the claim it should just be thrown out.
Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2015, 02:23:15 pm »

It doesn't match my view.... since we're discussing ideas, and my own political ideas aren't relevant.
but it is pretty obviously shaping your worldview and that's very relevant.

I never claimed to be an expert on economics. ...Never claimed expertise there.
you claimed to definitively know that an economic system was impractical. that's a huge reach and pretty obvious assertion of your firm understanding of the subject.

Rather than refuting the argument, you gave some hand-waving dismissal about how it is a "cliche."
because these non-arguments dont deserve any better. you have no idea how many times i've had to deal with these same automatic canned attacks being trotted out every time this subject comes up, and it's simply not practical for me to engage the same bad arguments over and over. seriously, if you want in depths rebuttals to them go to rev left and post them, im sure there's plenty of people there with the time and patience for it.

Quote
and a tautological presenting of problems with past regimes you assert are intractable and fatal flaws.

Well, that's basically how science works. A given action, taken repeatedly, yields the same result. Maybe it will be different in some subsequent trial. But as far as predicting the future based on the past goes, the winning bet appears to be on repetition.
i called your assertions unscientific, you claim they are sound. we're going in circles, please stop


Quote
(capitalism works on paper but it's never created an equitable society, lol)

I've never claimed equity as a goal.
gee it doesn't feel very good to have a garbage argument thrown against you thoughtlessly does it? also, you misunderstand "equitable"

Quote
for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind

Is it all a lie, then? The purges under Stalin? The murder of the entire Russian clergy under the Bolsheviks? And the famines under Mao? And the Cultural Revolutions? Are those merely lies?
no, bad shit happened man. i never refuted that. i acknowledge abuses that happened under leftist regimes, which is more than any of you are willing to do here for capital. i used this example specifically for reasons i'll get to in a moment.


for every holodomor (a lie btw) stuck on your mind, i see more deaths on the hands of capital every year, and we're obviously never going to agree on that
If that's not an inflammatory statement I don't know what is.
it was very spcifically chosen because it cuts to the heart of the issue here.
empires are as much built on and of information as anything. the current global regime has done what all empires have done, it has tinted the lenses through which we see history. the crimes of communism are played up endlessly, while the ongoing crimes of capital are not even alluded to as being the responsibility of capital, but of "bad actors" and individual determinism.
i do not deny the famine. i do not deny some policies made the situation worse. what i refute absolutely is the the disney-villainesque narrative that it was a genocidal plot from the start to punish the peasantry.
the truth is it happened in a region that had been stricken by repeated and cyclical famine for a very long time, and that in fact strides were already made toward alleviating the great suffering it caused. there were worse famines time and again under the tzars, but it is not seared into the collective conscience the way holodomor is because it is not convenient to the capitalist narrative of the pure evil of communism.
here is a good starting point for reading on the subject and i'd be happy to supply further reading.
http://rt.com/news/prime-time/where-did-americas-missing-millions-go-holodomor-lessons/


But show me one Communist Country where as many people live with a high standard of living as they do in the United States and Western Europe. Just one.
most leftists nations in the world have struggled with a long history of violence at the hand of capital and are barely into recovering. the united states has more to do with lower quality of life in places like cuba, venezuela,  chile, brasil, ect than socialism or communism.


Quote
Despite its failures, capitalism has been a much more positive force overall on humanity than Communism.
communism has done more to empower people and give them a chance to build prosperous and peacful lives than capitalism ever will
there, we both threw out equally unsupport and broad claims. yay internet discussion!


Rich made a very good point about America's rebuilding of its "conquered" countries. Looking at the legacy we have left all over the world makes me proud to be an American.
no, he didn't. america has left a long legacy of "rebuilding" puppet governments, ofter far right in nature, often bloodthirsty, always oppressive to its people. i have posted information detailing as much, see killing hope and the open veins of latin america


North Korea is weak and still recovering from the famine their collective(i.e. Communist) farming policies caused.
north korea is a far right dictatorship that was virtually leveled by american bombs (to a criminal degree)
it is Not a leftist government and the repeated labeling of places like north korea, china, and russia as "communist" betrays the fundamental lack of firm understanding of politics and economics endemic to the lazy psuedo-intellectual defenders of capitalism.

Communism in its purest form cannot work.
capitalsim can't work at all and is completely unsustainable
yay more blanket empty statements. fun!


I don't get this hostility to numbers that Capt. Communism here is displaying.  
because i long ago stopped engaging with the tactic of demanding immediate and extensive accounting under the assertion that if i don't spend an inordinate amount of time an energy digging through research for you that any assertions i make are invalid.
it's intellectually dishonest, tiresom, and very commonplace. to even begin talking about numbers we would first need to enter a larger discussion of context, reliability of sources, and a whole bevy of other issues that frankly aren't worth the time to educate people who are so blatantly hostile to ideas and interpretations outside of the common capitalist myths.

Quote
Using historical examples, since that's the point of this thread, what do you think the United States SHOULD be doing to improve the state of the world?  Like, specifically?
use it's exorbitant military budget to work toward securing fundamental human rights worldwide. food, education, healthcare, and housing for every human being full stop no exceptions. instead of funding worlwide terror campaigns, occupations, and political attacks (coups).
use it's vast influence to protect the ecosystem instead of make it easier to ruin the planet for profit.
dismantle its racist paramilitary police force.
declare a debt jubilee.
there are hundreds of actions the united states could take to make the world a better place, but we terrorize and oppress instead. it is a conscious brutal choice, and it is inexcusable.
Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2015, 02:46:16 pm »

use it's exorbitant military budget to work toward securing fundamental human rights worldwide. food, education, healthcare, and housing for every human being full stop no exceptions. instead of funding worlwide terror campaigns, occupations, and political attacks (coups).
use it's vast influence to protect the ecosystem instead of make it easier to ruin the planet for profit.
dismantle its racist paramilitary police force.
declare a debt jubilee.

Okay, got it.  I think your proposals are a little high-level -- these are political talking points, not actual plans -- but I think I get your goals.  So, let's look at them.

Quote
use it's exorbitant military budget to work toward securing fundamental human rights worldwide. food, education, healthcare, and housing for every human being full stop no exceptions.

This certainly would be an unprecedented act for a dominant nation, huh?  I am not sure what standard of living you're thinking of, but at least one source agrees with you that a small fraction of the U.S. military expenditure could substantially end worldwide poverty:

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm
http://www.visionofearth.org/economics/ending-poverty/how-much-would-it-cost-to-end-extreme-poverty-in-the-world/
(Lots of the links the site uses are dead, sadly)

However, I'm not sure that the logistics of this would be as smooth as this link suggests.  If you simply get local currency or food to everyone in the world, you end up having to defend your shipments from hostile locals who might want to steal it.  Remember, even people on the wrong end of oppression can still be asshats to each other.  (Example: First Nation people were warring with each other like any other people, and were not above doing horrible things to each other even before the White Man arrived to start Operation Smallpox.  We shouldn't glorify the victims of history so much we lose sight of that.)

You don't want ethnic divisions causing theft of food or supplies coming in to try to starve this or that village.  What will the transportation programs cost?

The other big question I have is what the standard of living is that this pays for.  I doubt we're talking about U.S. standard of living.  Perhaps they just mean having enough to eat and having a bed with a roof?  I mean, that sure seems like a good start.

And let's not forget that local conflicts do cause large numbers of refugees and starvation as well.  I don't think you can reasonably claim that EVERY CONFLICT EVAR is caused by the United States, so even a big program like this might only reach some fraction of the people.

I'm ignoring political impediments to this proposal in both the U.S. and other countries for the purpose of discussion.  

Quote
use it's vast influence to protect the ecosystem instead of make it easier to ruin the planet for profit.

We're kind of doing this already.  The two parties have a tug of war over the issue, but we have been steadily accumulating environmental protections over time in the U.S.  Now, I'm in favor of pro-environmental policies, but you have to pair those with economic considerations.  China is somewhat justified when it points out that we only became powerful because we were able to exploit resources as we did.

Anyway, I think technology is going to solve this problem, not political activism.  When solar and wind is the cheapest way to generate energy (and it should be, it's all around us) then the expliotation goes down.  Example: horses to cars.  The United States was busy removing all of its forests during the 1800s because it needed pasture land for horses.  With the invention of the train, and more importantly the internal combustion automobile, the forest reduction stopped dramatically.  And, incidentally, so did the horse population.  (Please don't bicker about how cars are worse; I get that, the point is that technology changes the resources we care about.)

Quote
dismantle its racist paramilitary police force.

I dont know what you have in mind here.  Just disband all police...?  I suspect a small portion of the population would then form their own "racist paramilitary police force" and do pretty well for themselves at everyone else's expense...

Quote
declare a debt jubilee.

Again, what?  Like, declare all debts forgiven?  I don't think you've considered how horribly this would disrupt the flow of materials -- including food -- around the world in the short term.

Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2015, 02:58:03 pm »

Quote
use it's vast influence to protect the ecosystem instead of make it easier to ruin the planet for profit.
We're kind of doing this already.  ... Anyway, I think technology is going to solve this problem,
delusional optimism. it's too late. extinction is inevitable at this point.


Quote
declare a debt jubilee.
Again, what?  Like, declare all debts forgiven?  I don't think you've considered how horribly this would disrupt the flow of materials -- including food -- around the world in the short term.
actually i've given it a great deal of thought. these are isues i study at lenght, and in fact i've already posted a great text on the subject ITT which i would happily send you
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt?ac=1



 I think your proposals are a little high-level -- these are political talking points, not actual plans
save money by making all public universities free to attend
end corporate personhood
end coerced (and ineffective) austerity measures through imf and world bank
stop supporting isreali apartheid
staff and fund epa, labor board, etc
end focus on irs harassment of individuals and focus on systemic corporate fraud
enact a living wage requirement

this list goes on and on and you can tap dance around questions of logistics all you want but they're all very doable, sensible, and humane
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 03:06:23 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2015, 03:15:58 pm »

The reviews about the book you posted are very un-encouraging.  Either the reviewer says "AWESOME I know can rethink the world" without details, or the poster says that the author relies more on philosophy and his own way of labeling things rather than data and historical example to make his point.

Quote
extinction is inevitable at this point.

Well, uh, then I guess there's nothing to talk about?

EDIT: To digress a bit, I once knew a good friend who was a big Objectivist.  I couldn't understand the difference between that philosophy and skepticism or just old fashioned scientific thinking (like Popper) so they sent me the seminal text on the subject.  It wasn't by Rand, but by one of her disciples. Piekoff?.  Anyway, I barely got a chapter into it before I started making notes in the margin each time the author just conceptually jumped over an assumption to make a very bold point -- in that case, they started with a logical tautology of A = A and then lept from there to all sorts of epistemology with nary a valid syllogism in sight.

A lot of the arguments you are making read the same.  Do you know why there's a consensus about climate change being real and man-made (American Right-wingers aside)?  Because the data proves it.  Not because someone char-ruffed about the sanctity of nature being exploited by the capitalist pig-dogs.  I suspect you would get your point across better if you presented data rather than claiming "EXTINCTION IS NIGH" and just giving us a laundry list of gifts to the have-nots.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 03:26:45 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2015, 03:23:46 pm »

The reviews about the book you posted are very un-encouraging.  Either the reviewer says "AWESOME I know can rethink the world" without details, or the poster says that the author relies more on philosophy and his own way of labeling things rather than data and historical example to make his point.
david graeber is a respected anthropologist and debt is a rather rigorous work that you owe it to yourself to give a try. it's a much more coherent look at economics than the recently popular  capital in the 21st century by the ill informed thomas piketty
Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2015, 03:30:45 pm »

 Do you know why there's a consensus about climate change being real and man-made (American Right-wingers aside)?  Because the data proves it.  Not because someone char-ruffed about the sanctity of nature being exploited by the capitalist pig-dogs.  I suspect you would get your point across better if you presented data rather than claiming "EXTINCTION IS NIGH" and just giving us a laundry list of gifts to the have-nots.
noami klein (author of the fantasic shock doctrine) has a new book specifically about laying out the case that the climate crisis is intimately tied to the nature and behavior of capital
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-everything

http://valuesmessage.org/info/Capitalism%20vs%20the%20Climate.pdf
http://climateandcapitalism.com/2015/01/15/earth-crosses-four-nine-planetary-boundaries/
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/what-it-would-really-take-to-reverse-climate-change
http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-transition-to-sustainable-energy.html


a laundry list of gifts to the have-nots.
you calling them gifts is an ideological position. i see it as basic human rights that should be provided with the stolen wealth accumulated under capital
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 03:54:10 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2015, 03:52:17 pm »

a laundry list of gifts to the have-nots.
you calling them gifts is an ideological position. i see it as basic human rights that should be provided with the stolen wealth accumulated under capital

I'm not making a value judgment.  "Gift" means "a thing given willingly to someone without payment."
Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2015, 03:55:29 pm »

you presume it was theirs to give or not give in the first place, and not acquired through illegitimate means
it is OWEd

if you steal my bike and i force you to buy me a replacement, you are not giving me a gift
Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2015, 04:10:15 pm »

you presume it was theirs to give or not give in the first place, and not acquired through illegitimate means
it is OWEd

if you steal my bike and i force you to buy me a replacement, you are not giving me a gift

Oi, you keep hopping to these wild positions without supporting yourself.  Look, Mr. Camera-for-a-face, if someone steals your bike, you personally had that bike to begin with.  If someone is starving to death in the Ukraine because Stalin has a bad day and the Secret Police literally broke into their home and stole their food, the analogy holds.  But, if someone in war-torn Africa is born into poverty and does not have enough to eat, they personally never owned anything that was stolen.

You can make arguments about one society stealing from another society and so its owed back to the society, I suppose, but it's not the same thing as taking something someone already owns.  Okay, here's where the lack of data and details come back.  Marxists historians are just as bad at personifying groups as their opponents are.  They say things like "no personhood for corporations" and yet they want to treat large classes or nations as if they were large, homogeneous individuals subject to the same moral metrics as any individual constituent.
Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2015, 04:34:48 pm »

if someone in war-torn Africa is born into poverty and does not have enough to eat, they personally never owned anything that was stolen.
they never owned the means to provide for themselves because of the systemic theft, pillage, and violence of their people by imperialism.
to argue that nothing was taken from them is absurd, unconscionable, self serving, and irresponsible

« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 04:40:08 pm by VibeBox » Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
vaughnbros
Basic User
**
Posts: 1574


View Profile Email
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2015, 05:48:50 pm »

if someone in war-torn Africa is born into poverty and does not have enough to eat, they personally never owned anything that was stolen.
they never owned the means to provide for themselves because of the systemic theft, pillage, and violence of their people by imperialism.
to argue that nothing was taken from them is absurd, unconscionable, self serving, and irresponsible

That's kind of what happens when countries are defeated in war unless it was by the US or Rome in which case we would rebuild them.  Do you really think the Mongols, vikings, huns, ect. left much for the people living there?  I mean really please go read some more history books.  You seem to not have the full picture.
Logged
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2015, 06:34:04 pm »

That's kind of what happens when countries are defeated in war unless it was by the US or Rome in which case we would rebuild them.  Do you really think the Mongols, vikings, huns, ect. left much for the people living there?  I mean really please go read some more history books.  You seem to not have the full picture.
you're the one who can't be bothered to acknowledge the texts i've already referenced refuting this myth of american exceptionalism  committing to "rebuilding conquered lands"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/187149.Open_Veins_of_Latin_America
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78130.Killing_Hope?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1237300.The_Shock_Doctrine?ac=1

modern empire insists on taking everything, down to charging you for the water of your own country once it has bombed/funded a coup/invaded/turned you to debt slave

you also just really directly supported the notion that theft through violence is aaaaall hunky dorey, we control it now so how we got it literally doesn't matter, which again is morally reprehensible
Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2015, 06:35:38 pm »

or Rome

Ehhhhh I dunno about that, but we talked about that earlier.
Logged
vaughnbros
Basic User
**
Posts: 1574


View Profile Email
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2015, 07:57:03 pm »

That's kind of what happens when countries are defeated in war unless it was by the US or Rome in which case we would rebuild them.  Do you really think the Mongols, vikings, huns, ect. left much for the people living there?  I mean really please go read some more history books.  You seem to not have the full picture.
you're the one who can't be bothered to acknowledge the texts i've already referenced refuting this myth of american exceptionalism  committing to "rebuilding conquered lands"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/187149.Open_Veins_of_Latin_America
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/78130.Killing_Hope?ac=1
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1237300.The_Shock_Doctrine?ac=1

modern empire insists on taking everything, down to charging you for the water of your own country once it has bombed/funded a coup/invaded/turned you to debt slave

you also just really directly supported the notion that theft through violence is aaaaall hunky dorey, we control it now so how we got it literally doesn't matter, which again is morally reprehensible

Thanks for posting the three extremely subjective books again.  I'll be sure to put them on my reading list.  How about you actually give some excerpts instead of citing an entire book?  Morality?  Is war ever moral?  I'm specifically stating that war is the cause for the plundering of those lands.  War has almost next to nothing to do with government or economic system.  Capitalist, communist, socialist, dictators, empires, ect.  all plunder the losing civilization.

or Rome

Ehhhhh I dunno about that, but we talked about that earlier.

I didn't really weigh in earlier, but I'd consider any settlement in the area rebuilding.  Britain probably goes in the category as well as some other empires.  Not all were plunder and destroy which was the real point.
Logged
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2015, 08:07:51 pm »

vibebox, I disagree with you that extinction is inevitable. As the show emphasizes, mankind is capable of extraordinary feats.  It will become medieval for a while, but we will live on.

someone made a point earlier though that there has never been a truly peaceful time, so its impossible to gauge how bad it is now or know how bad it needs to get for the US to collapse.
Logged

Join the Vintage League!
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2015, 08:17:14 pm »

War has almost next to nothing to do with government or economic system. 

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
vaughnbros
Basic User
**
Posts: 1574


View Profile Email
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2015, 08:41:49 pm »

Thank you for ruining an otherwise interesting thread vibebox.  I think you've made yourself more than clear that you irrationally hate capatilism.  Can I see that list of books again that apparently enumerate all of the 5 thousand years of written history? I didn't get a chance to copy them down the first 5 times you posted them.
Logged
MaximumCDawg
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2172


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2015, 09:16:40 pm »

Thank you for ruining an otherwise interesting thread vibebox.  I think you've made yourself more than clear that you irrationally hate capatilism.  Can I see that list of books again that apparently enumerate all of the 5 thousand years of written history? I didn't get a chance to copy them down the first 5 times you posted them.

We could do one of two things here.  We could all just block the fine fellow, formally or informally, or we could allow this thread to spiral downwards into total disaster.

Lemme try to push us in the former direction.  If you guys reading this thread like history, I cannot recommend Dan Carlin's podcast enough: http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

He's not always right, you won't always agree with him, but I don't know anyone else who does as good of a job of making interesting points of history into very compelling narratives.  He's a blast to listen to, and he's got a whole series on the fall of the Roman Republic, if you liked that kind of thing here.  He doesn't dabble in Byzantium, sadly -- maybe it's not hard core enough -- but he's really a great listen.  Check it out.

or Rome

Ehhhhh I dunno about that, but we talked about that earlier.

I didn't really weigh in earlier, but I'd consider any settlement in the area rebuilding.  Britain probably goes in the category as well as some other empires.  Not all were plunder and destroy which was the real point.

As far as salting the soil goes, thats probably more the exception than the rule.  Ancient civilizations, Rome included, did a pretty good job of raping and pillaging when they took over, but wholesale destruction of infrastructure and depopulating is something you didn't see all the time.  That's where the Mongols really shine: not so much conquering and taxing as much as making whole fields greasy with millions of rotting corpses. 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:19:22 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
A.-1.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 828


Team RST


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2015, 10:22:11 pm »

Lemme try to push us in the former direction.  If you guys reading this thread like history, I cannot recommend Dan Carlin's podcast enough: http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

He's not always right, you won't always agree with him, but I don't know anyone else who does as good of a job of making interesting points of history into very compelling narratives.  He's a blast to listen to, and he's got a whole series on the fall of the Roman Republic, if you liked that kind of thing here.  He doesn't dabble in Byzantium, sadly -- maybe it's not hard core enough -- but he's really a great listen.  Check it out.

I second that. Of his podcasts that I've listened to, I've highly enjoyed each one even though I wouldn't call myself a history buff. The podcasts are a great way to pass the time during a long work commute or road trip.
Logged

Please make an attempt to use proper grammar.
VibeBox
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


a ghost from the past


View Profile Email
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2015, 10:30:36 pm »

 We could all just block the fine fellow, formally or informally, or we could allow this thread to spiral downwards into total disaster.
i wouldn't bother im done engaging the pile of empty arguments.


Lemme try to push us in the former direction.  If you guys reading this thread like history, I cannot recommend Dan Carlin's podcast enough: http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/
  He doesn't dabble in Byzantium, sadly -- maybe it's not hard core enough -- but he's really a great listen.  Check it out.
cant stand carlin's shock radio jock voice, have never been able to listen to him
if you want some byzantium though, after mike duncan wrapped up his ~5 year project History of Rome at the collapse of western empire, some english dude picked up and moved forward with the eastern empire. it's titled simply History of Byzantium

duncan went on to his current project, another solid podcast Revolutions

Logged

"oh right, damage doesn't stack anymore. oops. ignore me i'm a dinosaur" -me playing magic
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 20 queries.