TheManaDrain.com
January 27, 2020, 09:39:15 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Timetwister against Dredge  (Read 1494 times)
diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
Basic User
**
Posts: 1049


View Profile
« on: February 24, 2015, 09:38:59 am »

Timetwister as a not-terrible option against Dredge has always been an idea I've floated whenever I'm brewing. However, I've been decidedly unimpressed in testing in the past:

1.) if you open a hand with it, it's a median turn 2 play. So your Dredge opponent has had either 1 or 2 turns, surely has a Bazaar, and it feels like a Time Walk. If you get to untap and your deck has explosve elements then it feels like you should have a chance, but if you're a durdley control build or draw mostly into counters then you're screwed anyway.

2.) Past turn 2, it feels like Dredge basically doesn't care as it has board presence and some spicy 7's can start ripping you apart immediately (e.g. if they draw into Therapies).

And of course, there's the X factor, which is if they draw a second Bazaar. Seemed to happen a lot actually, and that's just game.

---

So, in 2015, despite my misgivings, I'm tempted to try Timetwister again. I guess I'm looking for opinions from other players (backed up by testing or reason please).
Logged
WhiteLotus
Basic User
**
Posts: 282


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 01:03:20 pm »

Timetwister is soft hate vs dredge, It will only work in a deck that is fueled by timetwister and already in the same range of speed as dredge. So outside of Belcher, Rituals and Steel city Vault I don't think it's a very reliable strategy.

I've played it a ton with dark ritual and It's the best card you could want in the matchup but that's because your own deck is very susceptible to win on the spot after resolving twister or the turn after (where the grave shuffle effect becomes relevant).

I wouldn't try it in a blue combo control deck though.
Logged

"Your first mistake was thinking I would let you live long enough to make a second."
desolutionist
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1130



View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 01:45:03 pm »

It's very good on the play vs. dredge because you can Twist them into a hand that doesn't have Bazaar.  Otherwise it isn't very good graveyard hate.
Logged

Join the Vintage League!
Varal
Basic User
**
Posts: 165


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 01:45:53 pm »

Timetwister on the first turn on the play reduces the odds of a Bazaar at 40%, more if he used Serum Powder, so it would be a good play. It can also gain you a turn if your opponent used Bazaar of Baghdad during their turn looking for Unmask or during yours looking for Mental Misstep. Afterwards when he has board presence it's not as good unless Timetwister also helps your own strategy.

Play it if you need to slow them and refuel your Therapied hand but it's not sideboard material. Tormod's Crypt and Ravenous Trap are way more back breaking.
Logged
vaughnbros
Basic User
**
Posts: 1574


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 03:54:46 pm »

The two windows that twister is painful to a dredge player is turn 1 on the play and turn 2 on the draw, 3 on the play.  Outside of those windows it does next to nothing unless your opponent does something silly like activate a bazaar on his turn when he shouldn't be.  The bigger issue of course is the second window (not turn 1 on the play) can often be too late if the dredge player has already resolved a dread return, has a large army in play, or therapied your twister.
Logged
TheBrassMan
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 692


AndyProbasco
View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 04:23:47 pm »

Largely I agree with the idea that Timetwister is probably not something you'd put in your sideboard just for the Dredge matchup and nothing else. That said I run Timetwister a lot, and have frequently found it to be a game-winning difference in that matchup.

Don't forget that the decks with the best Dredge matchups do two things - 1. effectively hamper graveyard development (i.e. with crypts or traps or leylines or whatever), and 2. put on a decent amount of pressure / quick clock. I've seen countless players lose game 2/3 after hamstringing their maindeck plan against dredge - they have the hate, but they can't close the deal, and dredge has more removal and counters than most people have hate. they WILL eventually draw them .... and if they don't, they WILL eventually kill you with hardcast 2 drops if you're slow enough.

Timetwister is one of the only cards that improves your clock while also hosing the graveyard (I can't think of any others, but they might exist). It's the speed-up-your-clock part that's most important. Even if it only slows the dredge player down one turn, it usually speeds you up at least a turn as well. If your sideboard is otherwise well prepared, it also gives you a decent chance to draw into your other hate cards (particularly if they were one-shot cards like crypt or trap).

Of course, Timetwister speeds up some decks more efficiently than others ... In that sense Timetwister is a great anti-dredge card - but only in decks that were probably already running Timetwister. This is interesting, but ultimately not very useful information.

It may be worth noting that Timetwister is probably the best Sorcery at removing graveyards. (besides the 1W morningtide, exiling graveyards at sorcery speed costs a TON of mana ... inexplicably) This means a Burning Wish deck might consider Timetwister as an anti dredge option - This is something I've done myself ... but a burning wish deck likely has all kinds of reasons it would want a Timetwister in the board.
Logged

Team GGs:  "Be careful what you flash barato, sooner or later we'll bannano"
"Demonic Tutor: it takes you to the Strip Mine Cow."
JACO
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1215


Don't be a meatball.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 06:48:53 pm »

Timetwister is awesome as a tactic against Dredge, if your deck can take advantage of it (read: some form of combo or quick finish). The ability to reset the graveyard (let alone the god-draw play of playing it on the first turn before they've gone) is very strong obviously, but just giving them a new hand if they already have a Bazaar in play can be a disaster if you can't capitalize on the new hand.

That being said, if I'm playing a combo or combo-control card, I usually want Timetwister in my 75, either in the main, or in the sideboard as a flexible Dredge hate/bomb against other specific decks. I rarely did this up until the past year or so, but it has proven a worthwhile sideboard option every time I've played it there.
Logged

Want to write about Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Type 4, or Commander/EDH? Eternal Central is looking for writers! Contact me. Follow me on Twitter @JMJACO. Follow Eternal Central on Twitter @EternalCentral.
PeAcH
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 472



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2015, 11:04:40 am »

Timetwister has been a great tool for me to fight Dredge and has won me much more G1s that any other card vs. the archetype.

Additionally, itīs great vs. Shops and any non-FOW deck.

And it can get you back to the game after a mull to 5 or less.

I really love it in general and I totally see it as a sideboard card vs. Dredge and possibly also vs. aggro.

Logged

"Your deed cannot be undone. You, however, can be."

@Peachmtg
sirgog
Basic User
**
Posts: 63


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 08:13:17 pm »

It's a card you are probably happy to draw against Dredge but you wouldn't want to sideboard it for the purpose as there are much better cards.
Logged
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.06 seconds with 20 queries.