Vintage Super League Season 2 Week 4-6 Predictions & Discussion

[Samoht]

Actually, it's more that I don't think other Mentor decks were consistently as good against Delver strategies. 

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list. 

While it's possible that your list is stronger against Delver, Storm's point (and one I find myself agreeing with) is that your game elsewhere suffers significantly because of the concessions you are making to Delver. By trimming down so heavily on your mana base, you weaken your Shops game. You are locked into the same Delver plan with a built in Sphere on your Pyromancer and no Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, or Trygon Predator. Those are significant changes to the match up. You can fall prey to competent Wasteland play and can lose the ability to Gush into the 3rd mana source from two lands that you desperately need. If the Delver deck can play underneath you and get to leveraging Tempo while you still dig for your threat, they can apply their game fairly easily. I understand that you put a lot of work into developing this, but I'm not seeing the same results you are whenever I play with/against this style of Mentor deck. I personally have found Mentor to perform significantly better behind Cavern of Souls in a more Bomberman style deck that features the full artifact mana compliment, Top, and Academy. Suddenly your Shops match up is bolstered because of the more robust mana base and lack of a tertiary color. Meanwhile, typical blue strategies have a significant difficulty with Cavern. Plenty of people have shown how powerful Humans are, and you can look over some of those decks to see some truly powerful cards that really put pressure on opponents. I've personally found this approach to bear the most fruit utilizing Mentor across various match ups while not ignoring any of them. Purchasing my new home visa a vis my collection has hindered me from getting tournament matches with my list due to both card availability and a lack of time to make trips, but I'm very confident in its power level.

[nedleeds]

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list.  

Got through watching the replays last night. Thanks to all the participants for entertaining me, commentary was also really good this week. Also, no offense to Bazaar but watching dredge is less than exciting so having no dredge made things a little easier on the eyes.

In testing my Trinket Mage / Mentor build I found Steve Shay's statement to be true as well. In testing the Trinket Mage / Cavern builds had strong game vs. Oath and Shops. Adding a Grey Ogre like Trinket Mage wasn't very helpful vs. Delver who was largely ignoring my mana development. I had EE, which sometimes when played on 0 can be a decent card vs Insect/Tokens ... but it was often at odds with the early mana development I was hoping to perform.  I defeated URg delver on the back of turn ones like this:



Sandbagging Cavern. He allows (?) Lotus to resolve and gets his face blown off. But this is a fairly unlikely opener

My sideboard had more STP, blasts and Izzet Staticcaster to try to get the match back to parity.

The flowchart for the Cavern / Control decks is different from the Gush builds.

It's more like Establish Mana -> Maintain Control -> Find Mentor -> Cast Mentor -> ??? -> Profit!!!

In most cases a resolved Trinket Mage does trigger or can trigger Mentor but in my testing and live play I found Trinket Mage is his usual mana smoothing, chump blocking, sometimes blue grey ogre battling self. I can see going with the Gush builds in the somewhat inbred world of Vintage Super League (though we did get 2 shops deck this semester).

I'll choke on my popcorn when somebody actually casts Thalia in this league

[Samoht]

You can play a Bomberman style deck without Trinket Mage or even Salvagers itself. It was done for a little while in certain versions of Blue Angels. I think there is definite strength in considering a plan that is reactive and robust that closes with alacrity. Mentor removes the need for Lotus to be present and the inclusion of Spellbomb in lists because of the sheer velocity it brings to the table. Again, I hope to unveil what I think will become the Standard for which Mentor decks will fall be built as going forward in the near future.

[Smmenen]

Actually, it's more that I don't think other Mentor decks were consistently as good against Delver strategies. 

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list. 

While it's possible that your list is stronger against Delver, Storm's point (and one I find myself agreeing with) is that your game elsewhere suffers significantly because of the concessions you are making to Delver.

Except this is for the VSL, and Delver was the most played deck in the first trimester and won the first season.  Either beat Delver, or go home, and both Rich and I came to the conclusion that Mentor decks constituted as you described failed that objective.

I personally have found Mentor to perform significantly better behind Cavern of Souls in a more Bomberman style deck that features the full artifact mana compliment, Top, and Academy.

I have not.  As I said:

I began my work on Mentor by honing in on and refining four lists:

1) A "Delver" Variant
2) A "big mana" version with 1-2 Caverns, Tops and more artifact acceleration
3) A version that looked alot like my Pyro Grow list with multiple Regrowths
4) Kevin's List (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47086.0 )

After speaking with [Rich], I realized that [his] assessment probably most pertained to versions that look like (2). 

So, I made as my baseline the Delver matchup.  Although Kevin swears that his list has a strong Delver matchup, I was skeptical of the Workshop matchup, and concerned about variance (a fact that manifested in Bob's match against you). 

After a bit of tuning and testing, I discovered that (1), as I had tuned it, was crushing Delver in my testing with Diophan (beyond the parameters you had sketched out), so I then turned to focus on the Workshop matchup in testing with Dave, and then made a few adjustments for my expected trimester opponents, as did Dave.  Dave didn't have a chance to test the blue matchups, so he just trusted me to give him valid data there. 
 

[Samoht]

Actually, it's more that I don't think other Mentor decks were consistently as good against Delver strategies. 

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list. 

While it's possible that your list is stronger against Delver, Storm's point (and one I find myself agreeing with) is that your game elsewhere suffers significantly because of the concessions you are making to Delver.

Except this is for the VSL, and Delver was the most played deck in the first trimester and won the first season.  Either beat Delver, or go home, and both Rich and I came to the conclusion that Mentor decks constituted as you described failed that objective.

I personally have found Mentor to perform significantly better behind Cavern of Souls in a more Bomberman style deck that features the full artifact mana compliment, Top, and Academy.

I have not.  As I said:

I began my work on Mentor by honing in on and refining four lists:

1) A "Delver" Variant
2) A "big mana" version with 1-2 Caverns, Tops and more artifact acceleration
3) A version that looked alot like my Pyro Grow list with multiple Regrowths
4) Kevin's List (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47086.0 )

After speaking with [Rich], I realized that [his] assessment probably most pertained to versions that look like (2). 

So, I made as my baseline the Delver matchup.  Although Kevin swears that his list has a strong Delver matchup, I was skeptical of the Workshop matchup, and concerned about variance (a fact that manifested in Bob's match against you). 

After a bit of tuning and testing, I discovered that (1), as I had tuned it, was crushing Delver in my testing with Diophan (beyond the parameters you had sketched out), so I then turned to focus on the Workshop matchup in testing with Dave, and then made a few adjustments for my expected trimester opponents, as did Dave.  Dave didn't have a chance to test the blue matchups, so he just trusted me to give him valid data there. 
 

That only means your deck is better for the VSL. Which while quite entertaining and great for exposure, it is clearly not a representation of the format nor a guide for how to build or play the decks in question. Further, your claim just illustrates that neither you nor Rich came upon a constitution that could overcome Delver reliably without an early Mentor, not that it didn't exist.

I've seen what you stated. I disagree with the premise that bigger mana decks are inherently weak against Delver. The ones I saw were playing things like Will, Jace, Gifts, or combinations and I've found that none are really necessary with Mentor. They are clunky and super awkward when Mentor isn't out early - I agree with both you and Rich there. It seems to me that stems from people being too focused on getting triggers off it and not just letting the card do the work. It is absurdly powerful. Let it close games and it will. If you give up everything and the kitchen sink to try to burst in one turn you just become a slower Belcher deck. If you try to add a ton of back up plans you have awkward hands that don't go anywhere. I don't mind passing multiple turns with the card in play in any match up as I chunk them down. People have died to Trinket Mage many a time, this card is quite better at that aspect.

A Delver variant still has issues with Delver playing underneath it. You fall prey to the same pitfalls as the bigger mana decks unless the Delver player has a weak hand. They can get to the Tempo game faster and have more resources to fight to protect their cards than you do. Even +1 Mox and +1 CMC is significant. Sure, if you can lend Mentor and get triggers and survive two turns/time walk you will win, but so do the big mana decks. You have slightly better draw steps and perhaps better filtering and trade off early pressure and control of the mid game.

Regrowth requires green which sends us into UWg land which is awkward or into four colors which is likely worse. I agree that is not a great place to be.

I like a lot about Kevin's deck, but am wary about Remora playing such a prominent role. When Vintage games were won primarily through spells I was a huge fan of Remora and put many tournaments away with its power. Like many of its brethren, the times have changed its efficacy. We live in a world now defined by creatures. It's arrived to the point that one of the best creatures in Vintage history is at most an afterthought to the meta. Dark Confidant used to survive forever because of a lack of removal while providing a clock and taxing an unused resource (life total). Now, there is ubiquitous removal in main decks, blockers that trade favorably, and the life total has become more precious than ever. The format has shifted. I think he had a lot of strong ideas that could potentially go somewhere, but was held back by his past associations with some really awesome cards that haven't kept up with the power creep well. I'll admit firsthand I'm not familiar with his meta-game so it's quite possible that Remora is great there. Looking at the format overall, and anticipating what I would expect to see at something like champs, I'd be very wary of playing the card. I think the three of us build our decks for that environment and then tailor them to fit a specific event/meta that we go to.

In short, we've come to different conclusions. I've had similar discussions with Rich about this as well. We are working on scheduling a testing session to derive some more concrete data to discuss as opposed to bandying about ideas on TMD with no common point of reference.

[Stormanimagus]

One idea I've heard no one really bandy around is a UW Mentor deck with 3-4 tops and 3 copies of counterbalance. Perhaps that could be a way to get those extra % points vs. blue decks. I could see such a list also running 2 caverns and 1 magus of the future along with 1-2 snapcaster mage. Has anyone considered this?

-Storm

[Will]

I think this week's games were quite enjoyable. This season, the metagame seems a lot closer to the "real life" metagame which makes things more interesting and relatable. Strategically the "3 match metagame" is intriguing, but it creates decks like Steve's Delver list from trimester 2 of season 1 which had a sideboard dedicated to beating Workshops. I don't fault Steve for doing this as it worked out for him, but that's not a decklist which could be played in a normal Vintage event.

One idea I've heard no one really bandy around is a UW Mentor deck with 3-4 tops and 3 copies of counterbalance. Perhaps that could be a way to get those extra % points vs. blue decks. I could see such a list also running 2 caverns and 1 magus of the future along with 1-2 snapcaster mage. Has anyone considered this?

-Storm

Considered, yes. Bandied about on TMD, no.

[Phele]

One idea I've heard no one really bandy around is a UW Mentor deck with 3-4 tops and 3 copies of counterbalance. Perhaps that could be a way to get those extra % points vs. blue decks. I could see such a list also running 2 caverns and 1 magus of the future along with 1-2 snapcaster mage. Has anyone considered this?

-Storm

I at least like the idea of playing more Tops, as there synergy with Mentor is great and a resolved Top can help to keep up with the card filtering abbility of the Delver style lists. I don't think that Counterbalance is the way to go to get more value out of the tops, but maybe some kind of Turbotez with white for Mentors could work.

[Smmenen]

Actually, it's more that I don't think other Mentor decks were consistently as good against Delver strategies.  

Rich Shay said that none of the Mentor decks he played could beat Delver without T1 or T2 Mentor.  That wasn't true of my Mentor list.  

While it's possible that your list is stronger against Delver, Storm's point (and one I find myself agreeing with) is that your game elsewhere suffers significantly because of the concessions you are making to Delver.

Except this is for the VSL, and Delver was the most played deck in the first trimester and won the first season.  Either beat Delver, or go home, and both Rich and I came to the conclusion that Mentor decks constituted as you described failed that objective.

That only means your deck is better for the VSL. Which while quite entertaining and great for exposure, it is clearly not a representation of the format nor a guide for how to build or play the decks in question.

Except Delver is, even post restriction, one of - if not the - top performing deck in the Vintage metagame.  Looking at the MTGO daily results, I think Delver and Workshops have the most 3-1 or 4-0 results.  Any Mentor deck that is weak against Delver as Rich described isn't viable in a big Vintage tournament, imo.  

I disagree with the premise that bigger mana decks are inherently weak against Delver.

Both history, available empirical evidence, and theory suggests exactly the opposite.  The big mana blue decks are inherently weak against these Gush decks, and have been so (whenever Gush was unrestricted) since 2002.  A parallel could be drawn between Gush decks vis-a-vis Workshops decks; the former are inherently disadvantaged against the latter.

That isn't to say that big mana blue decks can't be tuned to be competitive against these kinds of Gush decks, but they are inherently disadvantaged.  The overwhelming historical evidence demonstrates this: Chapin Grow's victory in 2002 Vintage Championship in a field of Keeper, GroAtog's dominance in 2003 against big blue decks, GroAtog and other Gush decks dominance in 2007-8 against blue decks, (driving Control Slaver & other big blue decks out of the metagame until Gush's restriction), and then Delver's performance in the 2013 Vintage Championship (putting up 2 Top 8 appearances), and then it's utter dominance of the the 2014 Vintage Championship. 

History has shown, over and over again, whenever these mana light Gush decks with growing creatures face big mana descendants of "the Deck," and it's many descendant lines, the Gush decks seem to be advantaged.

Theory explains the inherent advantage in terms of the mana and card advantage of both Gush itself, and the virtual card advantage of the design of Gush decks.  

[serracollector]

I still think esper is the correct route for Mentor. I an thoroughly suprised on one has tried him alongside tezz 2.0 allowing you to do more tricks with top and or making 5/5 beatsticks along with Mentor tokens. This should help in the Gush and Mud matchups I would think.

[desolutionist]

Blue Blecher supposedly was pretty good against Delver and has a big mana element to it... Maybe if the big blue deck were to just play some more threats to go over the top.  Elesh Norn kind guys.

[Samoht]

Are we really citing the MTGO results as being relevant to real life Vintage? The dearth of Wasteland in the metagame (hopefully fixed with the coming re-release of tempest block) combined with infinite bugs on key cards (Tangle Wire most notably) combined with Bomberman being completely unplayable due to the clock+clicks means that key portions of the metagame are absent at all times. I look at the daily results and laugh that so much Pyro + Spell decks are there in such absurd numbers, because I know it is not indicative of anything other of what to prepare for if I want to play on MTGO. Actual events play out significantly different from the metagame on MTGO. Cruise was busted and I think we found that out externally of MTGO, though it certainly reinforced the position pretty well because of the lack of predators.

Delver didn't exist as a deck until two years ago or so. Citing Gush's performance isn't relevant to this discussion as the games were significantly different when Gro was dominant. The game is different now and then. You can draw upon the history, but pretend it's a definitive parallel as you are and you are likely to make mistakes. Treasure Cruise dominated 2014, not Gush or Delver. Those were just the best associates for Cruise. We'll see how things unfold in the coming year, but I think any Mentor deck that tries to be Delver will give up a lot against Shops and be cutting off its hand to feed its face. I look forward to you trying to prove otherwise.

[desolutionist]

I think the VSL offers some relevant format data.  I've learned that Pyroblast and Dig Through Time are going to be major players moving forward.

The Omni-Tell list looks solid too. Its obviously going to be at the NYSE

[Smmenen]

Are we really citing the MTGO results as being relevant to real life Vintage?

Was there a better predictor of the Vintage Championship Top 8 than MTGO results?  Of any metagame, the MTGO one most strongly correlated to the actual results. Of course MTGO is relevant (and I'd say a hell of alot more) to not only "paper" Vintage, but to the Vintage format itself.  

Does anyone doubt that the DCI found MTGO results "relevant" to the Vintage format in its B&R list decision?
 
I'm more astonished that anyone (let alone yourself) would take the opposite position, and would consider MTGO results as *not* relevant to Vintage.  As a standard, "Relevance" is a remarkably low threshold.  To say that MTGO results are not relevant is to say that they have no probative value.  One doesn't have to conclude that they are incredibly significant to accept that they have at least some relevance. Surely it cannot be said with total earnestness that MTGO results have no relevance to Vintage.  I don't agree with that, and the DCI doesn't either.  

The dearth of Wasteland in the metagame (hopefully fixed with the coming re-release of tempest block) combined with infinite bugs on key cards (Tangle Wire most notably) .

The "dearth" of Wasteland seems to be little barrier to the number of Workshop decks that appear in 3-1 and 4-0 results.  It only takes 1 Workshop deck for the Workshop player to go 4-0, and register the most important result on MTGO in a daily.

Moreover, any "bugs" or "errors" are no more severe than the distorting effects of local metagame preferences and local network effects on deck choices.  I trust global player base of MTGO (such as the 132 player MTGO holiday open) much more than any local tournament as indicative and predictive of the results of a large scale major Vintage tournament like Vintage Champs.

combined with Bomberman being completely unplayable due to the clock+clicks means that key portions of the metagame are absent at all times

This isn't the first time I've heard this claim, but it seems greatly overstated, if not false.

I don't know how you define "key" portions of the metagame, but surely it must mean that the archetype is a major player in the format - among the top 4-5 performing decks.  Yet, looking at the format's last 4 major "paper" tournaments:

2014 Vintage Champs: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1981
2014 Ovinogeddon: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1976
2014 TMD Open (Waterbury): http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1953
2014 NYSE Open: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1926

0 Bomberman.  Not a single one.

I can't even recall Bomberman's last major important tournament result.  
I'm not saying that Bomberman isn't a viable deck, but I have to quarrel with the notion that it's a "key" portion of the metagame.  The evidence just isn't there.  

I look at the daily results and laugh that so much Pyro + Spell decks are there in such absurd numbers, because I know it is not indicative of anything other of what to prepare for if I want to play on MTGO. Actual events play out significantly different from the metagame on MTGO.

You are right about that.  They do.  The MTGO player base is global, more diverse, and less insular.  I trust the MTGO results more.  

Even if one were to accept your position, and ignore MTGO results, real life results suggest that Delver with or without Cruise is a top deck.  

Cruise was busted and I think we found that out externally of MTGO, though it certainly reinforced the position pretty well because of the lack of predators.

I think we did as well, but there were persistent skeptics.  The degree to which local metagames did not reflect Cruise's dominance both online and in events like the Vintage Championship underscores the errors in local metagames, not MTGO.  

Delver didn't exist as a deck until two years ago or so. Treasure Cruise dominated 2014, not Gush or Delver. Those were just the best associates for Cruise.

That sounds plausible... except for the simple fact that PyroDelver fueled by Gush got second place at the 2013 Vintage Championship, and in my opinion, should have won.  Beyond the specifics, the results since show that Delver's matchup against Merfolk is good.  
Moreover, Delver also had two copies in the Top 8, making it, at least, one of the top decks in the metagame.  So the inference that Delver decks weren't incredibly good before Cruise is just empirically wrong.  It may sound narratively plausible, but doesn't without actual scrutiny.  

Pretty sure the thread title doesn't indicate we are predicting or discussing real life sanctioned paper magic. Its about VSL which has the unique constraint of knowing who youll play before starting a semester. If this frustrates you there is always American Idol.

Steve has been blurring the lines between VSL discussion and format discussion so I've kept suit. If it bothers you there is always the option of not replying.

The context for this discussion was the question of the best way to build Mentor.  My premise is that you have to build it to have a good Delver matchup.  Your response to that was the claim that building a Mentor deck to beat Delver is only necessary for the VSL.  My rejoinder was to point out that Delver is one of the best decks in the format by performance online or off.  You seem to take issue with that.  To the extent that the premise holds, it conflates both the VSL and broader Vintage format, but that doesn't mean I'm blurring these lines more generally.

[brianpk80]

Yet, looking at the format's last 4 major "paper" tournaments:

2014 Vintage Champs: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1981
2014 Ovinogeddon: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1976
2014 TMD Open (Waterbury): http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1953
2014 NYSE Open: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1926

0 Bomberman.  Not a single one.

I clicked on the third link which immediately struck me as suspicious and found this:

3. Justin Kohler
Maindeck (60 cards):
   
Sideboard: (15 cards)
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Magus of the Future
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
4 Trinket Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Auriok Salvagers

Lands (16):
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
2 Batterskull
2 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tormod's Crypt

----

That is Bomberman.  

Auriok is a revered mainstay in the Northeast U. S., which still happens to be the critical center of all Vintage related activity on the continent.  Bomberman variants not only perform well in large events but they also win regional local events left and right.  It's also very successful in Europe.    

Edited - Prospero

[youhavenogame]

How is Bomberman unplayable on Modo if the latest versions don't even run Pyrite Spellbomb? Or am I missing some other infinite combo? Because targeting Lotus over and over for a few mana is done within two minutes. Anyway, I know few people who play that deck, but yeah it is quite underrepresented.

Also, how is Tangle Wire bugged? I think that bug has been erased a couple of months ago. I heard that Workshop is still bugged, which is just silly, but you can go around that by clicking your spell first before using Workshop.

[Smmenen]

Looking more carefully at 2014 tournaments, I could have - and should have - also listed the Bazaar of Moxen, the largest and most prestigious Vintage tournament in Europe every year.  There were also 0 Bomberman in that top 8 last year: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1905 (or in any of the Trial top 8s - which cracked 100 players).

The point is that for something someone described as a "key" part of the metagame, why is it almost entirely absent from the largest and most prestigious tournament Top 8 results?  No appearances in the NYSE Top 8, Vintage Champs Top 8, or the largest Euro tournaments; one appearance at the smaller Waterbury Top 8.  

I don't think a deck that has 0-1 appearances at the largest and most prestigious events on the calendar year can be described as a "key" part of the metagame. A part of the metagame, sure.  A viable strategy; fine.  But a "key" part of the metagame?  I don't think that's supportable.

Auriok is a revered mainstay in the Northeast U. S., which still happens to be the critical center of all Vintage related activity on the continent.  

A mainstay perhaps - but 0 copies in the NYSE Open Top 8, and 0 copies in the Vintage Champs Top 8, and one copy in the Waterbury Top 8? And that's within the region for which it is being described as a "revered mainstay."  

Bomberman variants not only perform well in large events

Except that the evidence for this is lacking. There isn't a single event with more than 70 players from the entire year of 2014 that I can find with a Bomberman deck in the Top 8.  Even if we lower the thresholds to 50 players, There are barely any appearances (e.g. a single copy from the Waterbury, the LCV Top 8  from January, 2014).

We judge decks not only how many appearances a deck has in a metagame, but by its performance within that metagame.  If Bomberman is as widespread as you suggest, then isn't it incongruous that the deck is virtually invisible in the three largest/most prestigious NE tournament Top 8's from the last year?  

Relative to plate appearances, Bomberman seems to be hitting very poorly in the biggest games.

It's also very successful in Europe.    

Again, 0 Bomberman Top 8s in either the Bazaar of Moxen or the Ovinogedden.  I'm not sure exactly how you define success (let alone "very successful"), but do you think Salvagers is even in the top 3 archetypes in Europe?  Top 5?  

I'm not saying Bomberman doesn't have top 8s, but it was literally 2.5% of the Top 8 decklists from the 5 largest/most prestigious tournaments of 2014.  I'd hardly say that's a "key" part of the Vintage metagame that's missing from MTGO, to the extent that Bomberman isn't played there.  

I'm also not saying that anyone should ignore the archetype - but the issue raised here was the "relevance" of MTGO results to paper vintage with respect to designing decks.  To the extent that the mechanics of MTGO hamper the playability of Bomberman, I'm simply saying that it's not as big of a deal as is being suggested in terms of distorting the metagame.  

Edited - Prospero

[mueller]

there are few dredge top-8s precisely because of the hate. The point could be made that Bomberman has few appearances without everyone dedicating 4 sideboard slots to it. That's a significantly worse performance than finishing outside top-8 while being metagamed for.

[Varal]

Delver was awesome in 2013 at Vintage Champs because no one was expecting it even if it was crushing the Spain metagame all year. Delver Cruise was also performing well at LCV in 2014 and a LCV player finished second. Spain players also started your famous 3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Delver sideboard. LCV results seems to be a good predictor of the larger metagame. Sure shops is rare, exotic blue decks are frequent and Dredge is almost inexistent but they're the most reliable midsized live tournaments.

[evouga]

Moving back on topic...

I just watched the Week 5 matches as I was out of town last week. So far Mentor Delver is not looking very impressive, and Rich's decision to stick with Pyromancer has been vindicated. What do the Mentor pilots think? Is the deck as strong as predicted or is the 3CC too much of a liability?

[vaughnbros]

Moving back on topic...

I just watched the Week 5 matches as I was out of town last week. So far Mentor Delver is not looking very impressive, and Rich's decision to stick with Pyromancer has been vindicated. What do the Mentor pilots think? Is the deck as strong as predicted or is the 3CC too much of a liability?

The mana cost difference is a big reason why Rich choose to stick with Pyromancer.  The 1 mana forces significant changes to the mana base and as a result destroys the consistency that Delver decks rely on to win so many games.

Edited - Prospero

[JACO]

Moving back on topic...

I just watched the Week 5 matches as I was out of town last week. So far Mentor Delver is not looking very impressive, and Rich's decision to stick with Pyromancer has been vindicated. What do the Mentor pilots think? Is the deck as strong as predicted or is the 3CC too much of a liability?

I think 3 mana is a liability when you're only playing 18 mana sources, and expect to power it out with protection. As someone else in this thread mentioned, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt play a key role in powering out faster Mentors, and after having played with the card in a few different shells, I wouldn't play without those 2 cards. They are far better than off-color Moxen.

As Kevin Cron mentioned that he believed his version of Mentor was very well positioned vs. Delver, I'm very curious as to his thoughts regarding:
1) mid and 'big' mana UWx Mentor shell vs. Delver
2) 18 mana source Grow type Mentor shell vs. Delver (and general thoughts on that approach to building Mentor.dec)
3) how he would have built Mentor.dec if he was participating in VSL S2 W4-6

He's had success in 2 local tourneys with his version of the deck so far, so...Kevin?

[serracollector]

Kevins version also crushed the tournament in Lima ohio I had held for a Trop. Remora and Top were insane for him from what I seen which were fueled off Crypt and Sol Ring. I agree fully those cards are needed.

[brianpk80]

I do wish Dragon and Bomberman were not unplayable with their software/timing rules and can appreciate there is a ripple effect on the online metagame as a result.  For instance, Null Rod is less valuable as a lock piece and Lightning Bolt is more valuable as removal when Salvagers are subtracted from a metagame.  

Edited - Prospero

[Prospero]

I refuse to believe that a collection of intelligent people, excited about a topic, are incapable of showing deference and respect to the opinions of others.

Hyperbole is not welcome here.  If you disagree with someone, it's acceptable to say "let's agree to disagree" and move on.  If you do, the staff will expect that anyone with whom you're discussing a given topic will back off, and leave you be.

I speak for the entire staff when I say that we are tired of VSL discussions going to hell like this.  None of the staff enjoys enforcing the site rules, as it detracts from the environment that we work to foster on TMD.  But we will enforce the rules and start handing out red-text, warnings and suspensions if needs be.

Please, get back on point, stay on point, and be respectful.

[merfolkOTPT]

Kevins version also crushed the tournament in Lima ohio I had held for a Trop. Remora and Top were insane for him from what I seen which were fueled off Crypt and Sol Ring. I agree fully those cards are needed.

I think his version just took down the TSO in Michigan this past weekend as well.  That guy knows how to play monastery mentor.

[Twaun007]

Kevins version also crushed the tournament in Lima ohio I had held for a Trop. Remora and Top were insane for him from what I seen which were fueled off Crypt and Sol Ring. I agree fully those cards are needed.

I think his version just took down the TSO in Michigan this past weekend as well.  That guy knows how to play monastery mentor.

He got second. Lost to shops. Here's the link http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47403.0

His deck is really good.

[CHA1N5]

Moving back on topic...

I just watched the Week 5 matches as I was out of town last week. So far Mentor Delver is not looking very impressive, and Rich's decision to stick with Pyromancer has been vindicated. What do the Mentor pilots think? Is the deck as strong as predicted or is the 3CC too much of a liability?

I think 3 mana is a liability when you're only playing 18 mana sources, and expect to power it out with protection. As someone else in this thread mentioned, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt play a key role in powering out faster Mentors, and after having played with the card in a few different shells, I wouldn't play without those 2 cards. They are far better than off-color Moxen.

As Kevin Cron mentioned that he believed his version of Mentor was very well positioned vs. Delver, I'm very curious as to his thoughts regarding:
1) mid and 'big' mana UWx Mentor shell vs. Delver
2) 18 mana source Grow type Mentor shell vs. Delver (and general thoughts on that approach to building Mentor.dec)
3) how he would have built Mentor.dec if he was participating in VSL S2 W4-6

He's had success in 2 local tourneys with his version of the deck so far, so...Kevin?

1) I think my version is just shy of "big" mana, given that I only run 3 Mox but I have Petal. I don't want too many colorless sources. I think that what most people picture in a "big" mana version is actually more of the bombs from decks like Grixis: Jace, Tinker, KeyVault, Gifts, Will, etc. These cards/strategies are mostly high risk/high reward and I think they are, on average, trumped by Delver's consistency and tempo. I built my deck to be able to match Delver's consistency (as closely as possible) while having some key overpowering effects (Remora and Mentor).

If you're picturing Bomberman, however, I genuinely have no experience with that deck. My instincts tell me that Salvagers represents a critical advantage over the various Grixis finishers in that it can be cast via Cavern and leave very little interactive options on the Delver side, but that combo is not available every game and Delver's consistency will frequently win out. Clearly, Bomberman has some devoted adherents and I'm sure you could build it to make Delver a favorable matchup.

2) If I understand what you're envisioning properly, I think you'd end up with Steve's current VSL list, which shares a great deal of DNA with Delver. My testing indicates that this sort of list is advantaged over Delver, but not by a great deal. Delver still has an early advantage that can result in tempo victories, but Mentor is very difficult for Delver to beat, once it resolves. Minor tweaks (sideboard) and familiarity with the matchup play a huge role. People are still exploring sideboard strategies from both sides. Always in motion is the future.

3) Your question is pretty specific, but still not specific enough, because it depends on what player in the VSL you are    Assuming Steve's exact perspective (playing LSV, Randy, Tom) I probably would have run my list, because I expected them all to be playing blue and I like my list vs. Grixis, Belcher, Delver and Oath. I would have adjusted away from some dedicated Shops hate to more flexible options. Perhaps change a Hurkyl's Recall to a Wear//Tear. Things like that. Clearly that prediction didn't prove 100% accurate, but that's what I *would* have done.

Kevins version also crushed the tournament in Lima ohio I had held for a Trop. Remora and Top were insane for him from what I seen which were fueled off Crypt and Sol Ring. I agree fully those cards are needed.

I think his version just took down the TSO in Michigan this past weekend as well.  That guy knows how to play monastery mentor.

He got second. Lost to shops. Here's the link http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47403.0

His deck is really good.

It was a close second to Justin (JustDee1223) this week.  The deck is still performing well for me.

[Phele]

Hey Kevin, thanks for the insight. Did you change your decklist at any point since the last time?

[youhavenogame]

So Mentor went 1-8 combined? Holy crap... that is below my expectations. I wonder whether the Mentor guys keep going with a few twists or switch their archetype completely.